What do you think about Other Women

[Keptawake]

Just wondering what your thoughts are about the type of people that get involved with married/taken people with families?

I’m asking because DP left me 2 months ago for another woman. They’d been seeing each other for about 3 months before he left (an emotional affair which turned into secret dates although he was “respectful” enough to not get physical until the day he walked out). We have 2 kids. She knew he had a family.

It goes without saying that I hate him for this but I’ve also spent the last couple of months raging at the type of woman who could knowingly get involved with and break up a family.

Am I justified in thinking good people don’t do things like this? This might seem like an obvious answer but I’m just feeling a bit low.

If it works out I know at some point I may have to be civil with her as a potential stepmum to my kids but I can’t help thinking that there is no way I want someone like that as a role model in my kids life.

Someone I know became the “other woman” after her boss at work used the fact that her child had died as a way to get close to her. Instead of doing the usual welfare referrals he should have done he just “looked after her”. He told her him and his partner were separating and were just waiting for the house to sell.
She was in such a state due to the loss of her child she completely depended on him for emotional support. He visited her several times a week, called and text her almost constantly. It turned out him and his partner were not separated and they didn’t even own the house it was rented so it was all a lie. By the time she found out she was so emotionally attached to him as she was struggling so much due to the grief that she ended up having to call the Samaritans. She didn’t think she could cope with life without him. Yes she was an adult but an adult who had lost a child so she wasn’t able to cope with life in the same way as she is now many years later.

The whole thing was absolutely horrendous. In that case I do not see that she was at fault at all. She carried on seeing him for several months after finding out as she was just not strong enough to leave him. She did then tell him where to go. His partner was aware of it, stayed with him and sent some nasty messages to the affair partner. I think the person who has the partner is to blame. People that have affairs with married/ partnered people are often vulnerable to start with and are lied to. It’s all very well saying they shouldn’t believe the lies but look at programs such as the tinder swindler. People do believe ridiculous things even if they are intelligent people.

My children’s dad did leave me for someone else many years ago but I think that was his choice and don’t think it is on her at all. (He is horrible and abusive anyway so good riddance).

If my current partner cheated on me I would blame him not her because who knows what he has told her. Even if he knew about me he could have said absolutely anything about how terrible I am so it’s not really relevant what people “know” about whether people have a partner.

Thats just my opinion and I know other people see it differently.

@TeakSideboard "Please stay away from decent people, decent people have had enough of you, male and females."

This is why, when I hear of people cheating, I hope and pray that the adulterous pair stay together.
If they break up, then they can enter the dating pool and make life difficult for people that have any scruples.

I encountered quite a few of these types when I was first divorced and starting to date

Please stay away from decent people, decent people have had enough of you, male and females.

I don't think we can easily separate the world into "decent" and "indecent" or good and bad people.

Most people in my experience, including those who have cheated on a partner at some point, or had a relationship with someone who was married/partnered, have aspects to their character that are decent, and exist in the grey area where they have both good and bad traits and do both good and bad things. They are not usually totally evil, or immoral. Of course, if you go to the pathological end, serial cheaters, scammers and liars who have no remorse, sociopaths/psychopaths/NPD, some are, but IME they're rare.

Traits that cheaters, and affair partners IME often do share is that they are weak willed, lack self discipline and resilience, and often believe themselves to be more hard done by in life than they are. This means they're more likely to think in a way that can justify an affair "my life is so rubbish, I deserve a bit of happiness and fun" kind of thing. They are often the kinds of people who have had easy, pampered lives, or been a bit spoiled, and find family life and responsibilities constraining and dull, and are inclined to feel disappointed with life. Or, they have grown up in dysfunction and don't know what a "normal" family life is like. If your home growing up was unpredictable and full of drama, a stable, normal family life can feel unsettling, like you are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. The unpredictability and excitement of an illicit affair feels familiar and sort of comforting to them. The latter group are easier to work with therapeutically to help them gain insight and change patterns.

I think there is probably more cheating, divorce, and more of this poly/non-monogamy nonsense, in the modern world because our lives in some ways are far too easy and in the age of Amazon, we don't have to learn to delay gratification so much, or curb our impulses towards meanness, sleaziness or dishonesty, when we can hide behind anonymity on a screen, and hide our actions behind fingerprints and pass codes on devices.

We also have to beware the black and white thinking that leads us to see victims of cheating as 100% blameless, innocent and all good, while the cheater is all bad. Victims, too, exist in that same grey area where they have both good and bad aspects to their character, as we all do. Being a victim of something bad also does not excuse or justify any kind of behaviour afterwards. There has been many a time where I have had to have hard conversations with a partner who wants to stay, but their behaviour clearly shows they cannot cope with it, and that can turn into a very toxic or even abusive dynamic.

Traits that cheaters, and affair partners IME often do share is that they are weak willed, lack self discipline and resilience, and often believe themselves to be more hard done by in life than they are. This means they're more likely to think in a way that can justify an affair "my life is so rubbish, I deserve a bit of happiness and fun" kind of thing. They are often the kinds of people who have had easy, pampered lives, or been a bit spoiled, and find family life and responsibilities constraining and dull, and are inclined to feel disappointed with life. Or, they have grown up in dysfunction and don't know what a "normal" family life is like. If your home growing up was unpredictable and full of drama, a stable, normal family life can feel unsettling, like you are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. The unpredictability and excitement of an illicit affair feels familiar and sort of comforting to them. The latter group are easier to work with therapeutically to help them gain insight and change patterns.

I cheated. None of that applies to me.

And that's why it's not black and white. Because there is no one definite profile of a cheater's characteristics.

Which is also why so many people are blindsided when it happens.

True - I can see patterns from the work I did, but they don't universally apply to all.

Very good point.
The usual sidestep is “It’s nothing to do with me what goes on in his marriage. It’s nothing to do with me what goes on in their home. I owe her nothing, it’s his life, his marriage etc etc.”
When the reality is that by agreeing to go along with it all they are helping to pull time, money and energy out of the marriage and home helping him lie and conceal it by keeping his silence and protecting the secret.
No doubt if their best friend got cheated on, or the MM then cheated on them, they’d have trouble justifying it or probably not say to their best friend “Oh, whoever it is sleeping with your husband can do what she likes, she’s obviously just actually a very nice woman who is free and single and is kindly helping him with his sex life and being so good as to help him keep you in the dark about it. It’s all on him of course. She can carry on helping to hurt you. Nothing wrong with her behaviour.”
It would be interesting to see the results of a yes/ no poll which asked women “Is it right to sleep with another person’s husband or partner?”
I think I know what the results would be but on MN it’s usually only ever the one in the committed relationship who’s done anything wrong in any way at all. As long as you’re single and don’t know the poor woman whose partner you’re sleeping with, she’s irrelevant and it’s all tickety- boo apparently.

No circumstances would make me have an affair with a married man.

It is not something I could be drawn into, I know this, I never have and never will.

No man, no matter how exceptional he is could ever covert me into living a lie.

Why are women obsessed about being in love, having the need to make men love them, having sexual relations with men who have wives and families, taking away their time, money and attention from the family unit.

Women can be on their own, there is no written bible that says a woman can not be on their own until a suitable or single man is available. I find it incredibly selfish, rude and aggresive to insert yourself into someone elses marriage and pitch yourself against another woman.
This obviously applies to both sexes, an inate selfishness that likes to see others in absolute pain.

I am above that nonsense.

Why are women obsessed about being in love, having the need to make men love them, having sexual relations with men who have wives and families, taking away their time, money and attention from the family unit.

Well there's no one answer to that, is there? Some women get a kick out of sleeping with a married man, some are stupid, some are vulnerable and in terrible circumstances, some are pursued intensely, some just enjoy the sex. As a PP said, there's no one profile or one situation, which is why people get blindsided.

But I do notice that it's only women who get this question. People are just baffled as to why a woman might have an illicit sexual affair, no idea what she could be getting out of it. But nobody is ever baffled as to what a man gets out of it. They may think it's shitty, but they aren't remotely puzzled by it, even if it's immoral. It's only women whose sexual activity is a total puzzle when it's not also morally perfect.

In fact, if we are questioning why women do things, a more pertinent question might be: why do women stay with men who have proven that they can't be trusted and have already crapped on their families?

My last post was agreeing with @Whatado, for some reason the tag was missing when I posted it.

It's actually none of anyone's buisness, two people in a primary relationship or marriage with children.

It is their decision.

Why would you care what reasons they have.

This has nothing to do with people behaving badly and causing harm to an innocent person.

And your previous post, I am not baffled by either sex having affairs and their reasons, I only know their motives and needs are not an excuse.

Careful - you’re only allowed to comment on / judge / denigrate OW on this thread. Not anything else 😂

Thats because this thread is about the morality of being the ‘other woman’. Laughing (with crying eyes emoji I mean really) at all those who have sensibly pointed that out is a little pathetic.

Choosing to stay with a man who has cheated on you for the myriad of reasons you might stay (children, extended family, financial, even love) and is your choice is NOT the same as being the other woman and party to the removal of a betrayed person’s right to informed sexual consent, their personal agency and you making a primary partner a bit player in your own personal dramas.

It’s so tiresome that some posters just use this kind of thread to dig the knife into the only innocent party in the affair who are often just trying to do the best in traumatic circumstances.

I have no issue with debating the ‘she doesn’t owe you anything’ line, although I vehemently disagree, I believe we ALL owe each other basic common decency and kindness regardless of whether we KNOW someone or not, but let’s stick to topic eh, and lay off the pathetic emojis!

The two issues are intrinsically linked because it is somewhat hypocritical to villainise the OW and then stay with the cheater who is the one who actually betrayed you. It just goes back to women believing what suits them to justify their choices - in exactly the same way you say OW are, when they believe the SAME man who bemoans a sexless marriage / my wife doesn’t understand me. Etc etc. this is a fundamental similarity that is always overlooked. The common factor is the man but it is always women who apparently more to blame. The man gets to keep his family and reputation in tact. Nothing to see here. The OW is the evil temptress.

As other posters have pointed out, there are a multitude of reasons why people cheat or are involved in affairs. I don’t see why it is only some women’s choices and reasons who are criticised despite such situations being complex and nuanced, with no idea what was said, the position of the other person / circumstances, and yet MN will not tolerate any other narrative other than that betrayed women are total saints whose choices can never be scrutinised.

also - ‘policing’ the thread is far more annoying than using an emoji FGS.

Thats because this thread is about the morality of being the ‘other woman’.

I know. It always is. That's the point. Threads about the morality of the OW far, far, far outweigh threads about the morality of being a MM who shits on the people he is supposed to love and be committed to.

At the end of the day, women stay with cheats because, for whatever reason, that suits them. OW, and MM do what they do for the same reason: it suits them. Sometimes, in all cases, it's more understandable than others. But people are much quicker to condemn and be flummoxed by the women than the men who committed and built a life with them, then crapped on it. And they're far more likely to do it if the bulk of the blame will be going elsewhere. I know everyone says they don't do that but you only have to look at the energy invested in castigating OW vs the energy invested in castigating cheating husbands to see that really isn't true.

For the same reasons that @Teaksideboard posted about OW.

Why are women obsessed about being in love, having the need to make men love them

That, along with other reasons. Not wanting to be a single parent. Money. Lifestyle. Not wanting to put children through a divorce.

Money, lifestyle and companionship are three reasons an OW might do it too. Or perhaps she is also in an unhappy marriage and this is her release so her kids don't go through a divorce and so on. Or she might be in love. I'm not saying any of this makes it right, I'm just saying the reasons aren't necessarily that different. And, of course, we aren't questioning why a man, even a happily married one, might have an affair. Because we know why. We don't like it or think it's right, but we understand exactly what a man might get out of an affair even though it's immoral. It's only women who we can't understand it, even if they're not the committed ones.

Exactly this.

the reasons behind why OW might become involved with a MM can be very similar to reasons why women stay with cheaters but no one wants to acknowledge that. To the point you get told off for even raising it.

betrayed spouses are entitled to believe the lies MM spin them because it suits them, but OW aren’t. It’s hypocritical. The MM is the common denominator and is spared this level of scrutiny.

I also think having children is even more of a reason to leave a cheater but there we are.

I agree. Which is why I dislike the amount of OW bashing that goes on here. Men get a free pass while women do the pick me dance and believe we can neatly separate the world into wives and sluts.

It's not a popular opinion around here, but I also think the that the cheated on wife is not always an innocent saint. I do not condone cheating, of course - it is cowardly and harmful and destructive, usually for all concerned. But it also usually takes two to make a relationship go south in the first place, unless its one of the fairly rare cases of being married to a sociopathic man.

I used to make it very clear in family therapy situations that I wouldn't collude with the narrative of it all being the OW's fault, because it's far too easy for that to be used as a smokescreen to avoid responsibility by both parties, actually. Most men are pretty quick to discard, denigrate and blame the OW when they get found out and want to reconcile. Either because they realise they've been monumentally stupid, or because they suddenly realise how much a divorce is going to cost them, financially and emotionally, not seeing their kids every day, etc.

If I heard that shite, I'd put a stop to it. I was never going to collude with putting all the blame on a third party who wasn't even in the room. Far too convenient and allows both parties to avoid doing the hard work, both individually and as a unit, of moving forward.

@CrazyGoatLady" But it also usually takes two to make a relationship go south in the first place, unless its one of the fairly rare cases of being married to a sociopathic man"

I would disagree with that.

It takes two to make a relationship work but only one to wreck it.

There is no excuse for cheating.

A wife could burn her husband's dinner every night, spend the housekeeping money on Bingo, refuse to have sex with him, refuse to get a job, refuse to clean the house, have appalling personal hygiene and generally be the worst wife in the whole wide world, but none of that is an excuse/reason for the husband to cheat.

It is however, a damn good reason for him to walk out and put in for a divorce.

Having looked at the "Relationship" pages on MN I have seen a whole load of feckless, idle, selfish, vacillating men being described. How bad do they have to be before they earn the Sociopath label, I wonder ?

My DSis’s former best mate is a serial OW. It’s cos she likes mess. She’s not into ‘normal.’ Doesn’t float her boat.

Just in my experience, others may feel differently - men get involved with OW who they wouldn’t actually choose if they could ‘start fresh’, affairs are largely opportunistic, and dudes are picking from a smaller, self-selecting group willing to entertain the idea of seeing a married man.

I’ve never met the fabled ‘meant to be’ couple who started in an affair. For the most part, OW are used as exit strategies, whether they know it or not. However, I have known some people trapped in unhappy situations who’ve used affairs to get untrapped and there are some affair-havers who probably aren’t immoral people at the base of it all.

But if we’re talking about single women taking up with married dads, I just don’t see why they’d bother. On a totally pragmatic level, it seems a messy, risky way to find a man.

A wife could burn her husband's dinner every night, spend the housekeeping money on Bingo, refuse to have sex with him, refuse to get a job, refuse to clean the house, have appalling personal hygiene and generally be the worst wife in the whole wide world, but none of that is an excuse/reason for the husband to cheat.

Some of those, though, are definitely ways to kill a relationship. Cheating isn't the only way to do it. If my husband spent our housekeeping money on gambling, showed me no affection, never showered, refused to work, turned the house into a shit tip and generally treated me like dirt, is that really so much better than sleeping with someone else?

Cheating causes irreparable damage to the betrayed spouse.
No one should stay in a relationship that's hurting them. But the point pp is making is that there is a choice to end the relationship, or try to fix it.
The choice to cheat is unbelievably cruel.

I'm not condoning cheating. I'm just saying that it isn't the only way of inflicting cruelty and irreparably damaging someone. Stealing money, showing no love, being disgusting, refusing to work, these things are all destructive and harmful too.

The OW that tried breaking up my marriage has form…

From the outside, she seems like a respectable person, has a job which supposedly involves looking after vulnerable people, yet, the real her chases any married man she can get her claws into…

I had to bite my tongue really hard after I caught my DH and her sexting each other. Then I found out that this is just how she is.

Karma has come in the shape of watching her good friends slowly dump her after they had to physically break her away from a married man she was trying to seduce in a pub. It’s sad, really…

(Don’t worry, I’m fully aware of my DH’s responsibility for his own behaviour, he was and is still atoning for it).