Ex re-writing our relationship to our child and everyone else.

[Peppasparty]

Why do narcissists re-write events? Is this because they believe they happened differently or do they actually know that they are lying. We share a child and our child says to me at times that daddy told me this happened like this. It’s a complete fabrication and he must know that he is lying. For example he showed our child my engagement ring and said that I gave it back to him so that he could show our child. This is not the truth what he did was forcefully remove it from my hand whilst shouting and swearing that I didn’t deserve the ring anymore.

He’s moved on and living happily which I find so difficult to understand considering the things he has done to me and previous girlfriends. Does he just lie to himself because a normal person would be eaten up. He also practices a faith, I don’t understand how he can sit and pray when he has done all these terrible things unless he really believes he has behaved well. Everyone knows shouting, screaming, pushing and throwing things at someone isn’t great and can’t be justified.

Yes narc is a very shame based disorder so they probably don't do much 'I'm sorry for this sin forgive me' praying and more of the 'god please give me' praying

I have read that the best thing for the child is to keep teaching them boundaries and standards
Eg 'we like and want to be friends with people who keep their promises and who's words and actions align'
'People who care about me don't want me to argue with my mummy as they know she is very special to me and loves me'
'We don't keep secrets from mummy'

Drill these in so if the narc does these things the CHILD can see for themselves it's bad behaviour

@Peppasparty I think also you should draw your child's attention to your trustworthiness. Eg do you see mummy treating angrily or unkindly? Does mummy let you down and break promises? Is mummy ever sneaky or mean? Exactly- you know what kind of person mummy is so if anyone thinks otherwise they are making a mistake

So for this example, rather than addressing the he said she said I would drill into my child the moral principle that once you give a gift you can't take it back even if you're not friends any more and if you tried to do that it would be stealing and very wrong

Then she'll realise her dad has done something wrong on her own

Yes. My ex who has neglected our baby many times (see 'my ex burnt my baby') wrote to me accusing me of neglect and saying the baby should go and live with him and his new gf because he thought his face hadn't been wiped the last time he took him out to the park

To answer your initial question OP, they re-write history to ensure that the version of them they 'sell' to the masses is never at fault and they are the eternal victim of the actions of others, or that they are the hero in their own story and could not have done more to improve the lives of those they touched. They perpetuate these fabrications to the extent that they actually believe them.

My pet narc literally told me at the weekend on one of his ill-tempered rants after not getting his own way on something that I came into our relationship with nothing and left it (when he abandoned me for his next victim) with far more, and that was because of him. He's claimed responsibility for my successful job/career, my financial security, my social standing, my increased knowledge capacity on various subjects. I think he's clinically insane quite frankly, because my reality featured isolating myself from friends and family and giving up my career to be with him, diagnosed anxiety and panic attacks, health problems induced by stress, financial hardship, responsibility for trying to work through his addictions; emotional, financial and on a handful of occasions physical abuse. I survived that period of my life and have thrived since it, but he's managed to spin it in his mind into seeing me succeed now and attributing it all to the foundations he believes he laid while we were together. He broke me, I rebuilt myself. I can't alter the way he views it, nobody and nothing can.

If he wasn't such a PITA he'd be fascinating to study, but I'm as low contact as I can be due to sharing a child (who is not a concern to him, he really is a textbook example). In an ideal world I'd have been NC the day he walked out on me but I have a responsibility to ensure our child has the chance to have a meaningful relationship with her biological father, despite the fact he doesn't appear to want one. If anyone has any tips on navigating that minefield, hit me up because the struggle of dealing with him is UNREAL - and sorry if that's hijacking your thread OP, but it's comforting to find solidarity here with people who may understand!

@AnnoyinglyOptimistic its breathtaking how similar they all are. Mine is just like this, and said almost exactly the same to me when I left the marriage.

I’m going to be controversial and say you only have a limited responsibility to enable a relationship with him. I think they’re dangerous, and potentially damaging to the child.

@AnnoyinglyOptimistic omg that’s exactly how he words it to our child. Everything I have he has twisted into him supplying it for me, without him I’d have nothing. The house, car, job etc etc, despite the house being mine apparently we’d not have had it without him. It’s all ridiculous the way it’s been twisted. We did a loft conversion funded by the bank so now that’s my mortgage as I own the home, deeds mortgage (we’ve been divorced a few years) but it was mine before …but apparently the second floor of house he funded, it’s his really…umm no it was always the banks money.

Mine told everyone he "bought me a car". Er, no - that was my (sole) account the payments were coming out of.

Seriously, though, lies like this are your friend. You can use them to illustrate to your children that he is fantasising AND that you are the solid one. You explain to the children that, no, you always owned the house, and that you borrowed the money to make it nicer. They will be familiar with the concept of someone bigging themselves up from the playground.

Perhaps its how he sees it.

I tend to think we all have our own reality, how we remember things. Some are minor differences some are major. My brother tells about our early holiday to Spain, what a great time we had. I try to point out I wasn't born then but it's water of a ducks back. Some still believe him.

It's difficult to know if it's best to argue about these things or wait till they get exposed on their own.

It’s exactly how he sees it, that’s the problem. He can’t see anything from anyones else’s perspective and therefore they deserve whatever he does or says and he has no empathy for how the other person has felt. For example he booked a weekend away and he felt that I wasn’t appreciative enough. I’ve no idea what amount of appreciation he was looking for but he ruined the weekend and wouldn’t talk to me within hours of arriving. He never apologised and justified it because l wasn’t appreciative of the money he spent, if I made more noise then he would have had a good time.

Definitely wait until they get exposed and we do have occasions where our child can see some strangeness about what he says and they know that daddy has to always have the best and be the best and it’s annoying apparently.

For example he booked a weekend away and he felt that I wasn’t appreciative enough.

The narcissists are really all following the same pattern. My ex called me 3AM to tell me he has bought a new ski outfit, so I can have his old one when we go skiing. I don't ski and have no interest in skiing holidays, so I mumbled thanks yes I'll give it a try. He threw a massive tantrum why I wasn't appreciative enough and how other people would be so grateful if they were given such an opportunity, and then blocked me for the next day. Mature.

I think they are like toddlers, it’s all or nothing. When you don’t give a toddler your undivided attention they throw a tantrum. Same like a narc, they think they are so important that when you don’t reflect that back they behave like children. They don’t consider that in your case it’s late and you don’t ski. They don’t actually consider anyone else at all ever.

They're nut jobs, plain and simple. I think the late Queens comment "some recollections may vary" is perfect for this kind of situation and shuts it down without getting into an argument

In an ideal world I'd have been NC the day he walked out on me but I have a responsibility to ensure our child has the chance to have a meaningful relationship with her biological father, despite the fact he doesn't appear to want one. If anyone has any tips on navigating that minefield, hit me up because the struggle of dealing with him is UNREAL - and sorry if that's hijacking your thread OP, but it's comforting to find solidarity here with people who may understand!
@AnnoyinglyOptimistic I think that you have to accept that you can't force the relationship and that attempting to do so is just another way he can control you and get supply from you. I think the sooner co-parents in this situation realie this, and can start preparing their DC for the reality of their useless fathers, the better. So be clear, be calm and be prepared to stick to whatever arrangement you have made and agreed to, but don't kill yourself trying to make it happen when he puts barriers up. A simple, "Daddy was supposed to come today, I don' tknow why he hasn't turne dup, I'm very sorry. Let's go and have a swim" or whatever.

@Peppasparty I am a big believer in casual, but firmly dismissive statements, "haha, daddy says he paid for the house? well, he was living here at the time and he did pay towards some bills so sure, that helped at the time. Now I am paying the bank back for the money they loaned me to make the house nicer."

"Daddy thinks he's the reason I have my career? How odd. I wonder why he thinks that - I worked really hard to get my degree, and in this job. I do love it and I did start while him and I were still together so perhaps he thinks that's why he had a part to play? I don't know. Seems a bit odd to me really but <shrug>"

"I'm sorry that Daddy told you it's my fault that our relationship didn't work out. I definitely don't agree with him about that. Things just weren't working. You probably don't remember because you were quite young but there were lots of argument sbecause we disgreed about lots of things. So I think it's a lot better that we're separated now and he's got Molly and you and I have our lovely life and you get to see both of us, isn't that nice?"

Also, just to add, they say these things to the DC on urpose. It's like a Win-win-win for them. Basically they get:
1 To upset you and cause upset and drama (big tick)
2 To start turning the DC against you - narcissists LOVE to isolate their victims.
3 To continue to portray themselves as the victim AND hero to an audience that doesn't have the skills and experience to spot the shittiness. This is particularly powerful at this point in their lives because most likely other people in their broader circle are starting to realise that they're not great people.

The narcissistic boss I had many years ago was a case in point. One of the MOST frustrating things about him was that the business just seemed to let him get away with it. One of the MOST frustrating things for him when managing me was that when he tried to turn colleagues and internal clients against me, he couldn't and ironically, it was that behaviour that contributed to the wool faling from everyone else's eyes. When he finally left got fired from that firm, I heard via the grapevine that he couldn't find another job for love or money as his reputation was in tatters. He eventually had to go work in another country!

@Sunat45degrees I have to admit that I had got drawn into this silent competition before I realised what has been happening. He is the most amazing Disney dad you’ve ever seen and anything I’ve done he’s done better. His gf is apparently a better version of me (without all my faults) she looks the same does the same job (only better) etc etc. He wants child to call her mum. But she’s only better whilst she behaves and sadly this is the shit that he is teaching our child. Any toy they can have etc. They are only primary age so what do they know. He needs to sort himself out.

Exactly this.

you still believe his lies though, you’re still tangled in his web. He’s not happy, he’s not praying with a good conscience he just doesn’t care about things the way you (a normal person) do.
stop trying to figure him out and just focus on what you’re doing. Say daddy sometines has trouble remembering things and explain calmly in an age appropriate way. They don’t need details of abuse, but you could say eg. No daddy took mummy’s ring when we decided not to be together anymore. Mummy would never want to show you anything to upset you… or whatever you’re concerned about. Just establish you are safe and trustworthy. You can’t have dc just blindly believing him because he’ll do the same to them too, at least if they already have established that daddy isn’t always right, then his gaslighting won’t mess them up as much

He won't sort himself out. So you have to water-off-a-duck's back it. If he says it to you, just ignore/grey rock/ blandy agree. To the kids,

"Oh, Sarah's job is even better than mine? Wow, well done to her. I'm happy with my job but it's always good to see other women doing well."

When he's Disney dadd'ing its harder, I know. But trust me, it's not sustainable. He can't/won't keep it up. so for now, you can just say, "that's nice that Daddy bought you that toy" and leave it at that.

He needs to sort himself out.
hes not going to. Focus on your children and modelling the right way to be for dc. Feel sorry for that woman who is controlled by an abusive man. You’re not in competition with her, you pity her.
youre not in competition with him, he isn’t a good parent.
It’s hard, youll have to keep reminding yourself, but you need to rise above it

Yeah I’d feel sorry for her if she wasn’t enabling the abuse of her bfs child’s mum. I don’t feel sorry for grown women who let their partners tell their child their bio mum is worthless. It would be different without a child in the middle. I don’t feel in competition but she isn’t a good lady.

It's not pointless - tell your children that you remember things differently. You don't have to outright call him a liar. But let them know, in no uncertain terms, that it's OK to have a different version of events to their dad. Because one day he will do it to them. I guarantee it. Assuming he isn't already. Knowing that it's okay for there to be two versions of events helps massively once the gaslighting starts.

Grew up with a raging narc father, BTW, and was also told that I should be grateful that he only hit my mother. 🙄FWIW I have learned recently that a key part of being a narcissist is that they really do believe that they are the victim. They don't just say it, they actually believe it. That's why they blame other people for everything they do.

in time, you will come to realise that he has manipulated her.

Did he have an ex when you met him? Perhaps she was abusive? Or crazy? Or manipulative? Were you compared endlessly to her with you, of course, coming across as so much better? Did yo ufeel sorry for him for how things were in their relationship?

The reality is that you're right - how can these women not see through the bullshit? But the truth is that these men are very very good at manipulating the truth AND they pick women who are more likely to fall prey (or rather, they stay with those women - the ones who immediately pick up on this shit throw them to the curb long before the relationship becomes serious).

Surely you can imagine the things he's telling her? "Oh, Peppa had NOTHING when we met and now she's got this great life and I'm here, starting all over again. The woman is toxic."

"I'd lvoe to see the kids more but Peppa has threatened me so many times that if I try to have them more, she'll tell the court I abused her and the children. I can't risk it."

"I'm paying as much as I can towards CMS but it's never enough for her. She's living in a house I paid for, has a good job that I helped her to get and she's got plenty of money for the pub or to get her hair done but she's trying to bleed me dry."

"The children play up because she lets them do whatever they like at her house."

"I have to keep the children sweet because she's always dripping poison about me to them. The only way I can stop her from making it so they don't want to see me is by letting them have those toys or the mcdonalds."

"She was so controlling. Nothing i did was EVER good enough for her. She complained constantly about everything when all I wanted to do was be a good husband and father. I worked hard and at the end of the day, all I got from her were complaints and fights."

He'll only be nice to her as long as she's stroking his ego by agreeing with him that he's the victim and you're the monster.

He won't be able to keep it up forever. At some point she'll slip up and he will turn on her, it's what they do.

I started saying "Oh. That's not how I remember it" when my DC would say something they'd been told. Now they're older, and have their own measure of their dad, I may sometimes say a bit more.
But they completely believe what they're saying in their head. There is absolutely no point arguing with them, as it wil just make you feel worse. Mine even swore blindly over email he hadn't said something....even though it was just further up in the previous email!!