Struggling with the constant tension between DH & DD

[alwaysanticipating]

Regular mumsnetter, NC for this because, even for Mumsnet, it feels like a lot of personal info about my marriage and family life. I know that not everyone thinks it's a good idea to ask for personal advice from strangers but I've read a lot of sensible wisdom on here over the years and I'm posting because I'd like some objective views on the situation between DH & DD. It's really hard to speak to friends/family about this because I'd feel it was disloyal to DH to talk about my concerns behind his back with people in RL who have relationships with him. I'm not saying I've never done that - I've definitely overshared plenty of times, which I really regret now. I'm going to try hard to be balanced in how I explain the situation and I'd very much appreciate honest and compassionate responses because I'm finding the difficulties with DD & DH are really affecting my relationship with DH. It's going to be quite long because I'm trying not to drip-feed.

My oldest DC is 17. She has ADHD and is quite chaotic. She's pretty rubbish at helping out at home and needs a lot of cajoling to get her to do basic chores. She can be a bit unkind to DC2. Her mood is quite up and down and there are often daily dramas where she's lost something and totally freaks out or gets v wound up massively overthinking a text exchanges and needs talking down.

But, she is also brilliant fun, very observant about people, and can be really thoughtful and kind. She has a lovely, close-knit group of friends and has very good relationships with adults in her life generally - gets on well with teachers, other adult family members etc She goes out a bit i.e. not one of the cool kids but occasionally invited to parties, and has definitely experimented with alcohol a bit in the past year but has always stuck to curfews, will have one or two drinks but has never to our knowledge been drunk etc. Despite the chaos & missing of deadlines etc she does v well at school, excellent GCSE results, doing well at A-levels and has an extra-curricular interest (that will prob end up being her career) that she does at a national level.

The issue is this: DH has, for a very long time, seemed very down on her and critical of her. He describes her as being 'very negative' and 'uncurious', he feels she is selfish and unkind to DC2. He gets incredibly frustrated by her lack of organisation, the constant forgetting things and being late. He finds DC2 much easier to relate to, and feels I pander to DD and don't let her deal with the consequences of her own actions.

DD has told me that she feels nothing she ever does will be good enough for DH and that he always seems disappointed in her. I always counter this with how proud he is of her but she is obviously picking up on how he actually feels.

Discussions between me and DH about this often end in an argument because he feels I'm being defensive and I feel he's over-critical of DD who is not perfect and a standard teenager in lots of ways but also wonderful in lots of other ways.
DH also feels that I get overly emotional about things, that i'm defensive about any criticism and that he gets 'shouted down' a lot. I'm sure it's true that I'm defensive at times. I'm really trying hard not to be but partly it comes from feeling I need to defend myself and carve out boundaries because DH is a very strong character and always pushes firmly for what he thinks is the right way to do things. We had another chat about it all this morning and I did manage not to get upset or be defensive but it's left me feeling really sad.

A lot of what he sees as serious flaws in DD's character, I see as standard teen stuff that will pass. But I don't feel I can see the situation clearly any more. At times I feel absolutely furious with him for being so negative about her and not appreciating all the good things, and I worry a lot about the damage this could do to her self-esteem. But then at other times I think maybe I'm just blinded by love for my DC and not able to be realistic about her flaws and behaviour. Mostly though I'm just exhausted with being stuck between the two of them moaning about each other, and it's getting harder and harder to talk about any of the concerns I do have with DD (in the way parents do from time to time) because I'm worried it will just fuel his believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with her.

For context, I'd say I have really good relationships with both DC. They couldn't be more different but I love spending time with both of them, we have open chats and they tell me stuff about their lives and what is bothering them.

Sorry it's so long and a bit rambly. I'd really appreciate any thoughts and advice.

Yes, I agree with all you say. And I do try and support her her in the ways you describe but I do really struggle with it. Partly because I constantly have to convince myself that my own ADHD is a real thing rather than me just being really rubbish at a variety of stuff. I think DH finds it really hard to get his head around why she struggles with the things she struggles with. And so I end up running round like crazy trying to pick up the slack for her in order to keep the piece.

It's interesting that you asked whether he is neurodivergent. I think it's very likely he has ASD and I have said that much to him (others have as well e.g. in a work context) but I don't think he would ever see his way to seeking a diagnosis.

Perhaps you could get him to go to an ADHDsupport group or course online so he can understand the mechanics of what and why your DD struggles with.
From that he can try methods to help navigate his parenting with your DD.
As it stands she will already be her worst critic and she will be very aware of her fsthers dislike of her which will do untold damage to her self esteem.

This - I think he's right to try to address her difficult behaviour. However, it sounds like the problem is him not being able to recognise the positives in her, and so perhaps you could ask him to work on that.

I remember this dynamic between my parents of my mum being to soft on my brother and my dad being too hard on him. Both sides need to try to see the other's POV and work to meet in the middle. You need to not apologise for her bad behaviours, and he needs to praise the good more.

I think so much of parenting comes down to agreeing on boundaries - what do you both see as the lines for acceptable and unacceptable behaviour? If you're not on the same page on this then it all falls down. Inbetween those hard bounds you need to give each other some leeway and both hear the other's feedback without taking it personally/getting defensive - and ideally not during a drama, but later when you're calm and ideally when daughter isn't there to hear it.

I really sympathize and honestly the hard bits of someone with ADHD or similar seem to get harder to live with as they become young adults. In fact I almost could have written bits of your post. My eldest has very little tolerance of things that annoy her in others but demands a lot of tolerance from us. She is as spiky as a porcupine. I adore her and she has masses of good points too (most of the time) but they are not the ones that DH and her siblings have to deal with the most.

You see this is what really worries me. I do get the sense he believes that but when I pick him up on this, he'll deny it or say that he just wants her to fulfil her potential / be positive / not be overwhelmed by things. To break up the family would cause so much damage to everyone and a lot of what we have together is really good. I'm focusing on the bad stuff but we do also have a lot fun together at time.

So, I really want to find a way to address the problem practically. A poster upthread asked what DH is doing to work with DD on this stuff and I think that's what I'd like to work with him on.

This is a crucial time regarding your husbands relationship- she will fly the nest and the damage could be irreparable.

You in contrast are doing so well as her mum, it's such a small window when they behave like this, nearly an adult but not at all in a lot of ways, and it's soon over with.

Your husband sounds a bit overbearing tbh, keep doing what you are doing, and never ever join in with the negativity, it will just give him more ammunition.

Does your DH really understand how ADHD affects her life? For her to take medication for it means she has it more than mildly. It will explain a lot of her behaviours. As she gets older she’ll learn to navigate her feelings better but ADHD is a disability and she shouldn’t be blamed for it. Of course she should engage with strategies to manage it better but she’s still a teen and hormonal so I wouldn’t be expecting too much. ADHD is challenging for family members to live with but remember it’s worse for the person with the diagnosis.

You say your DC2 needles her. I had a sibling like that. She really knew how to push my buttons and inevitably when things erupted it would be me getting the blame, but by then I had been pushed to breaking point. As adults we have no relationship at all, and I struggled to forgive my parents for pandering to her and not seeing what she was doing to me.

Regarding them hearing more negative messages. Isn't that because their behaviour so often has a negative impact on others? Being late, being disorganised, being selfish, being messy, this all impacts others negatively. We have to turn our children in to decent adults, it makes it incredibly hard if you have to never point out their flaws.

This actually made me cry. I'm so aware of how soon she will leave, and I've said this to DH multiple times. I do pull her up on bad behaviour and in fact I can be too hard on her myself because I get so frustrated but I also think she's brilliant and want her to know that too. She's creative and funny and perceptive and I wish he could appreciate all that's good as well as seeing the negative bits.

Does your DH spend any quality time with your DD on their own?

It doesn't have to be big stuff. Watching a box set together that is just their thing. A fortnightly cinema trip where they take it in turns to watch a film. No big chats just spending time together, enjoying each other's company.

What is DH's response when you tell him this:

DD has told me that she feels nothing she ever does will be good enough for DH and that he always seems disappointed in her.

It doesn't really matter if he thinks he is just trying to get her to fulfill her potential or whatever - this is the actual message she is getting.

He needs to speak to her about that, tell her how amazing she is and how much he loves her and explain that he thought he was being helpful and trying to get her to achieve her best - but realises now he was going about it all wrong.

If he can't do that then there is no way forward and her self esteem will gradually get less and less and less - and an ADHD daughter with low self esteem about to go out into the world as a young adult and have relationships really isn't ideal.

If he's looking for her to end up in emotionally abusive relationships then he's going the right way about it IMO.

yes, that's true to a degree. But DD definitely does get pulled up on her behaviour, neither of us just suck it up. The difference is I will get annoyed at the time but talk to her about how she could do it differently next time whereas DH just talks to me about all the things she is doing wrong all the time. To be fair, I think he does this partly because he's worried that all his frustrations will come out if it he talks to her about it and it might make things worse. It's either that or he just feels it won't make a difference. Either way, it just feels as if it's left to me to manage it.

This is really helpful. I think i will try framing it that way

I mean, I’ll defend my child with ADHD until there is no breath left in my body… this includes from DH.
Like others have said, life is so much harder for this child and I’m sure they are completely aware of their struggles (own worst critic springs to mind).
In your shoes I’d keep doing what you are doing and let DH worry about his relationship with her. I wouldn’t let anything damage my relationship with them.

Bloody hell that hit home @Nn9011 - I was about to post saying how worthless I felt as a child and young adult, and then how worthless I started to feel as a parent, which triggered a very unpleasant spell of severe anxiety for me.

As a kid with adhd I was made to feel my difficulties were some kind of moral failure. Im not sure that feeling ever fully leaves .

OP please tell your dh that he is likely to be damaging your daughter's mental well-being. He should be helping her learn to cope with her disability (which obviously would include helping her to step up with chores, but not via hinting she is "bad").

I don't think he does. I think he probably thinks it's a bit of an excuse especially because ADHD diagnoses have gone through the roof in recent years.

Re the sibling dynamic, I've probably made it sound worse than it is. I observe them quite carefully and although there's some two-way needling, I would definitely say that DC2 is more generous towards DD than vice versa but I think that's a really common dynamic with siblings. I think they do have each other's backs when it comes to the important stuff and DD herself has said to me that she thinks they have a good relationship despite all the day-to-day gripes. Honestly, the major problem in the house is not the sibling relationship but the DH/DD relationship.

yes, I can relate to this as well. And I have said these things to DH but I just don't think they hit home. I think he feels I"m just making excuses for her.

It's quite clear that your DH doesn't understand the ADHD brain.

He needs to actively engage in understanding how her brain works first.
If your DD had a physical disability or was deaf he would learn to sign or make a ramp and get equipment so she could manage her disability better. ADHD is no different, she has an non typical brain so he needs to learn that first and then coping mechanisms will make sense to him and then he can help her implement them.

Her brain will not stop maturing until she is about 35, parenting someone with ADHD isn't finished when they hit 18, it would be like deciding an 8yr old is completely sufficient and expecting them to know how to adult.

To give some examples of what I describe as unkindness: DC2 will want to borrow something that belongs to neither of them e.g. me or DH, mostly that will be appealing because DD has had use of that item and has it in their room. DD will say 'no, i'm using that', even is she isn't. Sibling will then say 'well can I use your xx instead then' and the answer will be categorically no. This will escalate into a massive argument and I'll have to intervene, taking the item out of circulation altogether. On a different day, when they haven't already been arguing DD might say yes and it'd all be fine but often her default setting is not to concede anything to her sibling even if it would cost her nothing to say yes. I don't know if calling that unkindness is fair but that's how DH sees it.

God this brought back so many memories. My dad was disappointed in me all the time and just focused on the negative. I came home with straight As across the board in exams except maths and he just went on and on about how I had let everyone down with my maths.

My brother needled me and always wanted my stuff. It isn't unkind to say no. It is hers.

I still hear my father's voice in my head all the time and feel so worthless. It has affected me so much in my confidence as well. I focus more on my own faults than anything else. I left home and didn't go back. I didn't see my mum either but better that than be further subjected to my father.

Most teens seem to struggle with tidiness, hate lending stuff to their siblings and find them annoying. Most of this seems like standard stuff.

Your home should be your safe place

Sounds like your husband has a golden child and a scapegoat child.

Crossposted. Okay, so that again seems pretty standard sibling stuff. I would just remove the item if they can't agree or say how long they can borrow it for when lending

So as the older sibling in this situation I used to find it infuriating that my DSis would want anything and everything that I had or did. It was like having a shadow. I could have nothing of my own. My parents thought it was sweet, I found it suffocating and often competitive. I’m not saying that was reasonable, but that was my teenage, possibly ADHD brain working.

I think he probably thinks it's a bit of an excuse especially because ADHD diagnoses have gone through the roof in recent years.

This is troubling. ADHD diagnoses going through the roof is not a bad thing, it means many children who would have been failed in the past are now being identified.

My personal theory is that “normal” fits a very narrow range of people, those people being the ones most dominant in getting their preferences recognised. The rest of us tootle about on the edges, compromising as much as we need to to fit a norm that isn’t us.

Really he needs to see that at the moment whist she lives with you he has a relationship with her.
But if he continues as he is he really won't when she has moved out and can avoid him.

I would highly recommend family therapy for you all. You have a limited period of time before your daughter flies the nest, and you need a family therapist to help you work through what is going on and how relationships might change.