Buying a puppy. Breeder applying pressure for payment.

[fandangored]

Breeder applying pressure for payment and asking for transfer or cash payment BEFORE viewing day with puppy at 4 weeks..?

Already paid a £200 pre reserve fee!!!

Should I continue or red flag and run?!

And it seems like this neurological illness (traceable back to a 1930s champ and found mainly in solid coliur male cockers) is vanishingly rare

Cocker rage was bred out years ago. The real issue is resource guarding which people confuse with cocker rage.

Resource guarding is a very real problem within the breed mainly due to inexperienced owners but compounded by poor breeding. They have become extremely popular over the last few years which in my view, has done no good for the breed!

They are still my favourite gundog but I never recommend them to first time dog owners.

You mention cockers as gundogs - are you referring to working cockers, rather than show cockers?

I wouldn't recommend any spaniel to a novice owner, bar cavs, but I'd discourage against them sadly, for their health issues.

They need a lot of mental stimulation but often get over stimulated. Cockers especially are prone to resource guarding.

They are beautiful dogs in the right hands but I'd never consider one as I'm the first to admit I'm quite a lazy owner! Not in a bad way, I just don't have the patience for hours and hours of training, scent work etc and wouldn't be able to offer such a dog what it needs.

All cockers are gundogs but over the years show and working lines were split and now have quite different personalities/ drive and looks.
Overall, I still wouldn’t recommend anyone gets a cocker (be that show or working line) as a first time dog without lots of research, spending time with one, very good breeding, etc. They are Velcro dogs, they were bred to work very closely with their owner so you’ll often see separation anxiety issues within the breed. Again, lots of the issues people have with cockers are down to inexperienced owners. They are not an easy breed versus many other more laidback breeds. Some are far easier but that’s luck of the draw!

Dear Mumsnet, let’s not overcomplicate things! (Someone mentioned here that some threads tend to ve idealistic). Just back from a park with my happy cocker with whom I did no scent training or hours and hours of training. Lots of happy doggos in the park running about and enjoying life. Lots of breeds to choose from. This is my first dog in grown-up life (I gad that poodle from the age of 10, so it doesn’t count), no issues whatsoever. Butt anyway, as I’m saying, lots and lots of breeds out there, small and large. Don’t worry OP, you will find your doggo, it’s not the most difficult things in the world! Do go to puppy classes!

I'm so pleased to read this. Well done. I know it's always exciting but slow things down. A new dog isn't something you need to be in a rush for and you certainly shouldn't be getting pressured by anyone. As an aside, I've just spent £2,000 on surgery for my older dog this week. Even Insurance isn't always straight forward and doesn't always cover every eventuality. There's lots to think about. Relax and spend some time thinking things through. I always say a new dog comes into your life at the right time, and you will know when it's the right dog at the right time because it will happen naturally for you. I'd look into training classes too as it sets the foundation for a well balanced pet. You'd want to go to classes at least weekly while the dog is young and that will take a lot of your time up as well. There's lots to think through so take your time on it without being pressured. It's quite clear the breeder you found was just in it for money, you'll find as you meet more breeders before making a decision that not everyone is like that.

This is all very lovely but there will of course always be exceptions to the rule.

If you're looking for a calm dog, it's probably wise not to go for one which isn't generally known for being as such.

When I spent years researching breeds before I got my dog, I didn't want yappy, a dog prone to separation anxiety or any kind of working breed nor something prey driven. Of course, I could never guarantee any of this (bar the working breed) but what I could do was rule out breeds where there was a significant possibility these issues would occur.

I agree these are people like OP are the reason puppy farming is still going. The damage these breeders to these dogs is lifetime some never get over their fear. I am glad she is not going forward. But she needs to stop & more research needs to go into getting a dog. It is not a play thing for your child. They are little beings that have feelings & needs.

I spoke to the breeder on the phone and asked a few questions;
"How many mum's do you have?" - she said she has 10 Cavaliers. Is this a lot?

I asked her to send DNA proof for both parents and she said she will not send as I might send on or forward somewhere else.. she also said "you won't know what you're looking for" which was cheeky.

I asked whether mums/dad elbow tested she said 'no cavaliers are not dna tested for that'

The saga continues :/

The fact she wasn’t clear about how many of them are bitches is a disgrace and tells you all you need to know.

Good breeders have no more than one breeding bitch at any one time. No more than one litter a year (usually one every 2-3 years tbh).

Why are you still engaging with her? As I said on my first post, ten pages ago, she’s clearly a puppy farmer.

I would trust your gut on this one. Your not in the north west are u? Sounds alot like someone i engaged with at one point. I'd say this isn't your time and keep looking. Too many red flags for me

10?! Yes... I retract my original message! See if you can get your deposit back.

OP, there is no such thing as a reputable cavapoo breeder. They are all in it for the money, and the majority of them are puppy farmers.

The only way you’re going to find a decent breeder is going to be if you buy a purebred dog rather than a mongrel, which is essentially what a cavapoo is.

@fandangored the fact you even have to ask if 10 breeding females is a lot reinforces that you should not be buying a dog - you really haven't got a clue about all this. Yes that is a lot, you're dealing with a puppy farm.

If she breeds 5 of them once a year (conservative estimate, puppy farmers are usually more brutal), then she is selling 30-odd puppies making £75,000 per year, which would probably be £50,000 a year after costs if she was doing everything properly, but she clearly isn't, so she's making more.

You probably need to put a pin in getting a dog for the moment. You need to do a lot more research first.

I disagree that there are no reputable poodle cross breeders. There are... they're just harder to find.

I'm honestly not bothered about them breeding for profit, that's fine in my eyes... breeding dogs properly is expensive, time consuming and deserves to be compensated. Obviously breeding numerous bitches isn't something I'd include in this, but the odd litter from a family dog, where both parents are fully health tested is fine imo.

Yes 10 breeding mums is a lot of dogs - unless you are running a puppy farm.

Adopt a dog. Please.

"How many mum's do you have?" - she said she has 10 Cavaliers. Is this a lot?

That sounds very specific. Did you ask her how many she has of other breeds ...

More to the point, did you do what I suggested earlier (as you should be doing for any breeder) and ask the appropriate council to confirm how many dogs she is licensed for?

I'm sure there are some breeders of these crosses that make every effort to do it well. They are few and far between though. Most are hugely profitable businesses, registered with Companies House.

It's also worth looking at WHY these people choose to breed crosses - much less trackability on number of litters, and also a lot of them come about because one of the breeds used historically have large (and therefore) profitable litters. So, gundogs have big litters, hence use of Cockers. Labradors have large litters, hence use of them.

The saga continues :/

Why? Just leave it. You can't change how she's doing things, and you must walk away from this one.

You have probably lost your deposit, but continuing down this route could lose you far more.

I think a lot of it is demand. Poodle crosses are hugely popular and this is why the puppy farms chug them out.

Exactly this. People want them for ‘criteria’ that the dog won’t necessarily have (hypoallergenic). Then once the bitch has pumped out so many litters she’s a shell of herself, they dump her.

It’s possible to get a well bred one, but too often the buyers only care about these criteria, their child wants or their own selfish desires and not the dog….as OP is doing a great job of repeatedly demonstrating

Personally I think it should be illegal to profit from the sale of animals. If they made it illegal they would shut down the puppy farming industry overnight.

It’s precisely because there is so much money to be made that puppy farming is so rife. And I’m not talking about someone breeding once from the family dog. I’m talking about these people who have ten plus dogs and breed multiple of them at once. there’s a bloke who lives round by me who breeds cockerpoos and who even takes them for walks and treats them as family pets. Doesn’t change the fact that last time I saw him he told me he currently had two litters of puppies, three females in season and one pregnant bitch, and all in all he currently had 30 dogs which included 11 puppies all of which were being sold for £1800.

The puppy farmers who keep their dogs in a tray lot and rent a house for the purposes of selling them.

The overseas so called rescue industry which is rife with people who breed puppies and then import them as “rescues.”

You could get rid of all of that if you just tightened the law to say that no-one can profit from selling their animals.

Animals are not and should never be commodities.

Agreed. Although I think the majority of people buying a puppy whether it be a cross OR purebred are naive... they're not sure what to look out for, no idea about what health tests are most important in specific breeds etc. With a purebreed they often see KC registered and assume this is enough.

I know somebody who decided they wanted a lab recently... within 2 weeks they had a black lab puppy. No idea where they got it from but almost certain they didn't travel far and the chances of a lab being available locally from a great breeder, ready to go are vanishingly slim I would expect 😫

I get what you're saying... but if people only bred to improve their lines or only bred to keep a pup there would be a huge shortage of dogs. My breeder made a profit, but she took months off work to raise the litter and if you look at it that way, her actual profit was much reduced.

I know owning a dog is a privilege and not a right but dogs bring so much to so many people's lives. It would be a sad day if decent owners didn't get the chance to own one.

I thought you said you weren’t going ahead? You just aren’t listening are you?