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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

February 2025 Well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 12/02/2025 12:07

A new thread indeed!.

OP posts:
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5
Twatalert · 29/04/2025 19:21

@CheekySnake totally. It would make one feel lonely and rejected. I'm not good with my own birthday or holidays either. Always awkward.

MotherIssues2025 · 29/04/2025 19:23

@SamAndAnnie

Thank you, they’ve booked me in for 10.45 tomorrow morning. I’m feeling nervous but hopefully it’s the start of unscrambling my head.

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 09:08

I am in an odd place (and an odd mood) today, had a phone call from my mother yesterday after not talking or messaging for weeks. Didn't answer, took a deep breath and called her back. She mostly wanted to talk about the council elections (she's very into politics). Fine, whatever, I try to participate, it's not that we have different views but she takes it very seriously and has very fixed ideas and it's generally a topic it's best not to get her started on. Conversation then swung to childhood stuff and my father, I can't quite remember how we got there (it might have been me. Sometimes she says stuff and I find myself responding with 'yes but when I was a kid x happened). After I finally managed to end the call after an hour, she sent a text message saying she was sorry that she hadn't ended the marriage sooner. I couldn't sleep last night. I just don't know what to say to her. I can accept the apology. I can accept that it doesn't really change anything. I can accept that when I feel like she had no idea what it was like in that house for me, it's true. Because she didn't stop to look, or to ask. I was just like a piece of the furniture. It doesn't change how she's been in my adult life, or how she's treated my son. We've reached this point because her life has changed and she clearly now feels the need to have more contact with me, having not had much interest for 20 years, but it's like there's this big steaming pile of shit on the floor in the way that is partly there because I'm refusing to clear it up.

I don't know how to respond, what to say. I'm also really aware now that I'm on the brink of becoming bitter and that's the last thing I want. I want to stop thinking about it, to not be having intrusive, angry thoughts multiple times a day. It's ridiculous and I'm starting to dislike myself for having them. Maybe I need more therapy. IDK.

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 09:13

I think I feel a massive pressure to accept the apology and then act like everything is fixed, and it's not. I feel guilty for not wanting to just accept it and say everything is fine now. Definitely childhood training kicking in as there was an expectation that you would always forgive even if the behaviour had been absolutely abhorrent, and not forgiving 'correctly' would lead to further punishment and DARVO. He got to decide what correctly looked like and treated it like a daily special on a menu board. Never the same thing twice.

I guess you can forgive but you don't forget, do you.

wonderingwonderingwondering · 03/05/2025 10:05

@cheekysnake I'm so sorry for your pain. And I relate so strongly to your confusion, and your feeling like it's constantly on your mind.

The half apologies from my own mother always made the confusion worse. Because 1. They don't change the past or the damage I'm having to address now, and how that damage has impacted every aspect of my life, and 2. She's apologised for some things, but flat out denied others, while showing no evidence of changing her behaviour now as my mother.

The dynamic that she created will never change because she doesn't want it to change, and that makes every family interaction unsafe and unsettling for me. That can often manifest as a whole body confusion for me, that plays out like rumination and "trying to figure out" and blame and shame for me.

So now I'm trying to get practiced in the art of letting go. I needed a different mother and a different childhood to the one I got. But it will never change and it could never have been any other way. I'm just a cog in a machine that goes back generations upon generation of patterns and behaviours and unexamined, damaged people who never tried to change and Evolve. But what now? Who am I now? What does my life get to be, if these things will never change?

I've cried a lot, raged a lot, hoped and begged for it all to be different. My achilles heal is just that yearning for a mother. While feeling deeply sad for the life of my own mother. I feel an incredible sorrow for her, and an incredible need to be held and loved and told she's proud of me and to be seen by her. But it will never happen. And the best I can do is to grieve that pain, and try to show up differently in my own life. Honour my life in a way she never would or could.

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 10:22

@wonderingwonderingwondering thank you, and I wanted to say I am sorry that you're dealing with such a difficult situation too. It's not easy, is it, navigating adulthood when the foundation, the childhood, is so shaky. And I'm finding that every new stage of adulthood brings up difficulties I hadn't anticipated that have their roots in the same bloody thing.

I know my mother is in pain and she's struggling. I feel it so acutely. Her husband died very horribly and unexpectedly (it was a really really late stage cancer diagnosis - he was gone within weeks.) But while she was married, she had very little time for me or my kids and we really weren't part of each other's lives at all. It worked for me. It felt like freedom. Then he died and she moved back to the UK and she wants to have some sort of relationship with me, but I feel like it's only because she doesn't have better options right now. The push for increased contact has brought up so much anger and anxiety.

FWIW definitely intergenerational in my family too, on both sides. I am trying my hardest to make sure it ends with me.

Happyfarm · 03/05/2025 10:41

A sorry is 5 letters. Forgiveness comes from changed behaviour over a period of time. I accept my childhood and can move forward because my mum has been great with my daughter, offers a lot of support for her. But it does not change the past, that is set in stone. What has changed is the way I move forward with her. It’s a choice from me it’s not one she deserves or is entitled to. I give it because she has made an effort. The sorry has to come after the changed behaviour.

wonderingwonderingwondering · 03/05/2025 10:51

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 10:22

@wonderingwonderingwondering thank you, and I wanted to say I am sorry that you're dealing with such a difficult situation too. It's not easy, is it, navigating adulthood when the foundation, the childhood, is so shaky. And I'm finding that every new stage of adulthood brings up difficulties I hadn't anticipated that have their roots in the same bloody thing.

I know my mother is in pain and she's struggling. I feel it so acutely. Her husband died very horribly and unexpectedly (it was a really really late stage cancer diagnosis - he was gone within weeks.) But while she was married, she had very little time for me or my kids and we really weren't part of each other's lives at all. It worked for me. It felt like freedom. Then he died and she moved back to the UK and she wants to have some sort of relationship with me, but I feel like it's only because she doesn't have better options right now. The push for increased contact has brought up so much anger and anxiety.

FWIW definitely intergenerational in my family too, on both sides. I am trying my hardest to make sure it ends with me.

Edited

So articulate what you said about navigating adulthood after a childhood like this. I'm the same as you with the emerging stages that seem to unfold new insights and struggles around the the same thing. I'm currently trying to piece my career back together having spent the last 17 years trying to get my mother / my bosses / anyone's approval in demanding jobs that damaged my health. I'm navigating fertility treatment without so much as a question from my mother, and unpicking the complexities of having to fight so hard to become a mother while my own just cannot be arsed with me.

I'm actually angry on your behalf reading about your mother's treatment of you. She did nothing to build a relationship or prioritise you to now be entitled to ANYTHING let alone care and prioritisation from you. And how it gets painted as YOUR selfishness / immaturity/ whatever, when the onus was on her to parent you properly in the first place. I struggle with this too. And with my mother's frailty and how once again, her needs are more important than my own because she's old and helpless now.

binkie163 · 03/05/2025 13:35

@CheekySnake you are your mum's plan b.

Sorry doesn't really cut it, she is not sorry.
She doesn't have other options at the moment so expects you to be supportive, if someone better turns up she will drop you again, like a Fairweather friend. You know she never offered that support to you.

You owe her nothing so it is up to you if you choose to, knowing that she never put you first in her life. It's funny how old age suddenly makes these people want to reconnect! It's purely for selfish reasons, they always want something even if just our time and emotional resources. Tell her to join local oldies clubs, make her own friends and who knows an old fella.
Or you can suck it up for a few years and deal with the anxiety and anger.
There is no easy way with dysfunctional family. Lol at prince harry saying he is ready to forgive his family!!! Bet they are thrilled.
My mum would wail at me how she was willing to put the past behind us and move forward (into exactly the same selfish dynamic!) yeah good for her! She wasn't the one dumped on.
Self preservation I suppose. My self preservation was always running in the opposite direction xx

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 13:46

@binkie163 TBH, I think I am the plan c, because she has chosen to live somewhere really far from me (I wouldn't be able to drive there and back in a day so any sort of a visit would have to be an event rather than calling in for lunch). She's living round the corner from her husband's son. So (as I keep telling myself) she's not looking for any sort of hands on practical relationship, nor is there any desire to develop a relationship with my kids. TBH I think the bottom line is that she thinks of herself as maternal but actually, she isn't, and she needs people to take care of her rather than the other way round. What she wants is to be able to hoover up hours of my time on the phone when she's bored but what she's found is a wall of resistance and anger and I feel like she genuinely thought I'd be on the end of the phone whenever necessary, she had no idea how I felt about fifteen years of knowing that I was the bottom of the list. But then she's never had any idea how I felt so I shouldn't be surprised that she had no idea.

I am sure that when she said she's sorry, she means it. It just doesn't feel like it helps. I don't like that I feel this way, it makes me not like myself very much.

binkie163 · 03/05/2025 14:00

@CheekySnake the beauty of a phone is you don't have to pick it up.
We are good people and not used to treating others so casually it doesn't feel good but what is the alternative? Being used doesn't feel good either.
As children we had no choice but to put up with them as adults we don't have to.
I never regretted abandoning my mum in her frail final years. In the end it was choosing my mum or my sanity. She died and I still have a good 30 years of life free from her demanding drama. Sending you love xx

binkie163 · 03/05/2025 14:01

@CheekySnake you feel how you feel, it isn't wrong, your feelings count too xx

wonderingwonderingwondering · 03/05/2025 14:24

My scapegoat aunt died this week. She was one of 7, the rest are various levels of enmeshed, my mother being the most so. My mother was the eldest daughter and painted the most rosy, holy-god version of their childhood, how their mother was a saint, their father was the life and soul of the party. What I know is there was a lot of parentification, repression, alcoholism, religious trauma, sexual abuse by a priest that was ignored for decades, kids scapegoated for not followed a very narrow, prescribed idea of life that landed my aunt on the outside long before I was born. I never really knew her as a result, and listened to them all bitch about her relentlessly my whole childhood. From what I can glean, her worst sin was moving abroad, having a son out of wedlock, and marrying without tell their Dad. I'm sure she had her reasons.

She lived in UK (rest of the family in Ireland) and when I lived there, I took a train to visit her and her son once with my ex. She had loads of friends in the house, she made us white russians and tapas and we smoked weed on the terrace. It was so much fun, but I remember thinking how different she was from her conservative, god-fearing siblings. And how she seemed to have built this huge chosen family full of friends from different backgrounds and ethnicities and different walks of life. And I envied the close relationship she had with her son, they were proper mates, hanging out with each other's friends. She really KNEW her son, in a way that has always been impossible with my own mother, who has projected onto me her whole life and refused to get to know the adult I became.

My mother went to visit her late last year. They had a difficult relationship, but my mother has this "family first" thing where she'll never grant you empathy, vulnerability or a conversation about the elephant in the room; but she's text and visit once in a blue moon. I was going through a NC phase with my mother at the time because of her complete failure to support me during some hard things, and during one of our rare phone calls, she told me she visited (aunt) in a sort of, "if (aunt) can forgive me, then you can, too" kind of way. I felt a real, silent affinity with my aunt, I guess as if we were both forceably on the outside, in a sort of invisible way, maybe because we could actually see the bs. I always wanted to have a conversation with her about it, but her cancer became terminal last year and I knew that would be impossible. I know for sure her lifetime of trauma and conflict with her own family will have contributed to her health issues.

Rest in peace, R xx

Twatalert · 03/05/2025 14:43

@wonderingwonderingwondering those are beautiful words about your aunt. It read like a well articulated obituary and I'm sorry for your loss. I feel strangely inspired by your aunt as she seemed to forge her way in the world out there after being scapegoated and managed to form intimate relationships with with her own family and non family. All scapegoats are special.

SamAndAnnie · 03/05/2025 15:16

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 09:08

I am in an odd place (and an odd mood) today, had a phone call from my mother yesterday after not talking or messaging for weeks. Didn't answer, took a deep breath and called her back. She mostly wanted to talk about the council elections (she's very into politics). Fine, whatever, I try to participate, it's not that we have different views but she takes it very seriously and has very fixed ideas and it's generally a topic it's best not to get her started on. Conversation then swung to childhood stuff and my father, I can't quite remember how we got there (it might have been me. Sometimes she says stuff and I find myself responding with 'yes but when I was a kid x happened). After I finally managed to end the call after an hour, she sent a text message saying she was sorry that she hadn't ended the marriage sooner. I couldn't sleep last night. I just don't know what to say to her. I can accept the apology. I can accept that it doesn't really change anything. I can accept that when I feel like she had no idea what it was like in that house for me, it's true. Because she didn't stop to look, or to ask. I was just like a piece of the furniture. It doesn't change how she's been in my adult life, or how she's treated my son. We've reached this point because her life has changed and she clearly now feels the need to have more contact with me, having not had much interest for 20 years, but it's like there's this big steaming pile of shit on the floor in the way that is partly there because I'm refusing to clear it up.

I don't know how to respond, what to say. I'm also really aware now that I'm on the brink of becoming bitter and that's the last thing I want. I want to stop thinking about it, to not be having intrusive, angry thoughts multiple times a day. It's ridiculous and I'm starting to dislike myself for having them. Maybe I need more therapy. IDK.

I'd sit with the feeling for a while. Angry thoughts is you processing it all. Those thoughts have to come out and be looked at. I'd journal, to get it out of your head.

Re the steaming pile of shit. To be fair, it's not your shit, so why should you clean it up? She caused this mess by being a rubbish mum alongside your rubbish dad.

I wouldn't read all that much into the apology really. It could just be words, her trying to press the reset button on your relationship. Or it could be she's sorry for herself for being in a bad marriage longer than necessary (she could have left as soon as she'd realised it was bad, it sounds like she stayed and put up with it for a while instead). The apology may have very little to do with you and the harm she caused you by being so indifferent.

I mean, she could have said many things. She's sorry for the harm she caused, sorry for not knowing how bad life in that house was for you, sorry for not paying you much attention as a child, sorry for being a bad mother, etc. But she didn't. What she said was barely an acknowledgement of her own part in it all. She recognises her husband was bad, she recognises she should have left the marriage sooner. Ok. And???

Like you say, it changes nothing. One paltry apology doesn't wipe out a lifetime of abuse or neglect. Let your feelings flow and don't feel any pressure to respond to her message at all or have a closer relationship. Her apology is coming across like you feel a pressure to sweep it all under the carpet. You don't have to do that and you don't have to be fine about it all just because she's apologised. Do what feels comfortable and right.

Your anger is telling you something. You need to work through that before making any further decisions. If you've had lots of therapy you probably have the skills to work through it by yourself, so don't feel like you're flawed and need therapy just because you can't press the reset button with her like she wants you to.

CheekySnake · 03/05/2025 15:26

@SamAndAnnie the marriage lasted for 25 years. It ended when I was 17 but it was rotten pretty much the whole way through - i don't remember it ever being anything but toxic and terrifying.

wonderingwonderingwondering · 03/05/2025 15:47

Twatalert · 03/05/2025 14:43

@wonderingwonderingwondering those are beautiful words about your aunt. It read like a well articulated obituary and I'm sorry for your loss. I feel strangely inspired by your aunt as she seemed to forge her way in the world out there after being scapegoated and managed to form intimate relationships with with her own family and non family. All scapegoats are special.

That's so kind of you, thank you x

You're right about scapegoats. There's incredible resilience in having to find your way without your family of origin and build your own support network. But there's a lot of pain and trauma with it too. I don't know if the gift is worth the incredible pain and hardship of it. I feel as though the example of my estranged aunt gave me a lot of clarity as I started to do therapy as an adult and was able to see it through a different lens. That, and meeting her and realising she was just a cool person with a different life experience and set of values, vs the horror stories I'd been told.

SamAndAnnie · 03/05/2025 15:49

Wondering, your aunt sounds amazing, may she rest in peace.

Twatalert · 03/05/2025 15:58

@wonderingwonderingwondering your words would be incredibly validating for your aunt. For her to know that someone saw through it, that she was made the scapegoat and not everyone bought into it until the end.

I'm sometimes not sure either if I'd rather be the scapegoat and not the GC. Just yesterday my therapist opened another can of worms and I see a huge mountain ahead of me when I thought I was doing so well and 'probably don't need therapy for much longer'. It increases my resentment towards my parents and it's why the apology @CheekySnake received from her mother would mean nothing right now if it was me. Because who are these people thinking an apology makes stuff ok when I have to work so hard to live a decent life. No.

wonderingwonderingwondering · 03/05/2025 16:19

Twatalert · 03/05/2025 15:58

@wonderingwonderingwondering your words would be incredibly validating for your aunt. For her to know that someone saw through it, that she was made the scapegoat and not everyone bought into it until the end.

I'm sometimes not sure either if I'd rather be the scapegoat and not the GC. Just yesterday my therapist opened another can of worms and I see a huge mountain ahead of me when I thought I was doing so well and 'probably don't need therapy for much longer'. It increases my resentment towards my parents and it's why the apology @CheekySnake received from her mother would mean nothing right now if it was me. Because who are these people thinking an apology makes stuff ok when I have to work so hard to live a decent life. No.

You're right actually. My therapist brought it up once, too. I questioned whether it would be a good thing to do, if I was "imagining" things or missing some key details, maybe my aunt had a different view and bringing things up would offend her. Then she got sick, and I thought it'd be unethical. I feel sad about it all now, maybe I could've provided her with some deep relief. I think her generation were born pre therapy and I don't know if she ever got that in her life.

I listened to a podcast on We can do Hard Things a while ago about apologies. And how a true apology is not words - it's changed behaviour over a sustained period. Starting with yourself and being able to hold yourself accountable first: which means facing a bunch of realities about yourself that are brutally hard. And then taking yourself out of the equation and being able to prioritise the person you wronged, honouring their feelings and needs.

I'm sure most of us got the "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I'm sorry but...i did my best" apologies instead. Which offers no validation, no hope for a changed relationship, no promise that you won't do it again.

I feel as though the first example would offer something different between my mother and I. The second one just keeps the guilt and shame and blame going.

TorroFerney · 03/05/2025 16:35

CheekySnake · 29/04/2025 18:45

I never got anything for special birthdays either, and my mother excluded us from hers because she went on holiday with her husband (fair enough, her choice, whatever) but my attempts to arrange a meal out were met with bafflement, as if she couldn't understand why I would think she would want to do that.

Odd woman.

Actually, it shames me to admit this, but I'm really bad with my birthday and Christmas. I don't know how to enjoy it. I'm not good with going on holiday either.

My therapist said I should ask myself, when I look back at these things, if I would treat my kids that way, and use that as the guide for whether it was acceptable or not.

Edited

The word odd is my go to for my mother! Usually in the sentence “do you not think that’s odd?” To my husband which I know is seeking validation she does behave oddly I don’t actually need the second opinion!

MotherIssues2025 · 03/05/2025 20:29

These stories are so upsetting so read. You are all such strong women to be dealing with this x

Happyfarm · 03/05/2025 20:45

Do you think that a narcissist is actually capable of remorse and sorry?

I was thinking about it. A person who didn’t do a good job for addiction or depression etc could go through therapy and support and come to a place of great remorse I believe. I think that they would come to a place where forgiveness is impossible and they wouldn’t ask for it because they would feel what enormous pain they caused. A narcissist is role based. So a sorry would be said to place them into a role of victim because the sorry would be for themselves. They want your empathy. They have probably ran out of mirrors to reflect themselves off of.

My narc ex was sorry and then his sorry was always followed with I will save you, I will be your hero. So he caused the pain then he wanted to save me from this pain.

Twatalert · 03/05/2025 21:58

@wonderingwonderingwondering the only 'apology' I ever got from my mother about anything was when she thought she'd do me a favour by 'apologising' so I would stop being 'difficult'. Something along the lines 'well if you desperately need an apology I will give you one but I don't mean it and I think you are being ridiculous'.

Having done so much work in therapy over years I would never trust anyone in my family saw light and changed. It's not possible without deep reflection with a professional over a long period of time. Hence I would not trust that they might have reached emotional maturity. They will never see what I see.

TorroFerney · 04/05/2025 07:38

Happyfarm · 03/05/2025 20:45

Do you think that a narcissist is actually capable of remorse and sorry?

I was thinking about it. A person who didn’t do a good job for addiction or depression etc could go through therapy and support and come to a place of great remorse I believe. I think that they would come to a place where forgiveness is impossible and they wouldn’t ask for it because they would feel what enormous pain they caused. A narcissist is role based. So a sorry would be said to place them into a role of victim because the sorry would be for themselves. They want your empathy. They have probably ran out of mirrors to reflect themselves off of.

My narc ex was sorry and then his sorry was always followed with I will save you, I will be your hero. So he caused the pain then he wanted to save me from this pain.

Edited

They are capable of motivational empathy ie where ut helps them.

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