Lying in a relationship...

[AreHisPantsOnFire]

I have a pretty much zero tolerance on lying.

It's from a combination of childhood trauma and previously being married to a pathological liar who lied about absolutely everything due to being brought up by alcoholic parents.

I'm really sensitive to it and once I've discovered someone is lying to me, it rewrites the whole relationship in my head.

Eg tell me I look nice if you think I do but don't tell I'm beautiful because I'm not. If I ask for your opinion on something, it's because I actually want your opinion/perspective and not because I want you to flatter me by blowing smoke up my arse or to say what you think i want to hear.

I think this situation saying to sound pretty inconsequential to some but I hope people will respond given the whole context.

I think I have examples of my partner telling very small, inconsequential, pointless little lies in our relationship. But it makes me question the whole thing because, well, if someone lies, then they lie.

Eg. My partner gets up for work at 6.15am and leaves at 6.30am. I don't need to get up until 7. Sometimes, I wake up when his alarm goes off and sometimes I sleep straight through and sometimes I'm roused enough to he aware but I'm still not fully conscious and appear asleep to him.

He'll say things to me like, "You were still fast asleep when I left this morning. You didn't even stir when I kissed you and told you I love you." It's comment worthy because my sleep isn't every good generally and I can often be awake for good parts of the night so he's really commenting on that and saying I appear to have slept well.

But. Some of the times he's said this, I've been aware/conscious of him leaving but I know he hasn't kissed me or said anything. (Sometimes he does.)

It's like a weevil now burying into my thoughts. For example, when he tells me he's doing overtime on a Saturday morning, I feel I can't take it at face value. Sometimes, he'll come back and talk about it and, on those occasions, I know it's genuine. But sometimes he'll say nothing at all. No complaint about it, or comment on who was in and, if I ask how it went, he'll just say, "It was work." But he rarely has nothing to say about work so it makes me wonder.

Eg I know others won't agree with this but for my own personal reasons, I don't watch films with sex or unnecessary female nudity in. He knows this and he knows my reasons why. He will spend ages painstakingly choosing a film for us to watch together and checking the content before we watch something together. He has never made me feel in the wrong for this or complained.

I've also never cocommented on anything he chooses to watch without me. Sometimes (around once a week or so) I go to bed early to read so that he can watch something of his own choice where he doesn't have to be quite so vigilant.

The issue is that he has also volunteered that he doesn't like it either. He says he doesn't watch films with sex scenes (doesn't like it apparently) and he doesn't like gratuitous female nudity either. He parrots my sentiments and agrees with me wholeheartedly. I've never asked him to. I've told him my perspective but never questioned his or challenged him. Just explained so that he knows and understands. But I know I'm quite unusual in that respect.

But I can see from his 'continue watching' or series he has seen or conversations he has with others about films they've watched that he is absolutely watching stuff with (sometimes) lots of sex and nudity in it. So why the lie?

It just makes me question everything he says mentally.

I'm not really bothered if he kisses me and says he loves me before he goes to work if I'm still alseep and I'm not particularly bothered what he watches without me. But the fact he lies about these things makes me wonder what other more consequential lies there are that I'm unaware of. Like when he says he fancies me or I look nice or he loves me are those lies too? It's creating a general feeling of mistrust for me that I don't like.

Is lying like this normal in a relationship? Would you be bothered?

I have told.him.that I'm sometimes aware but not awake enough to be fully conscious.

I'm not lying to him.about that

No, I haven't told him I'm posting on here but I wouldn't tell him about every conversation I have with everyone and I wouldn't expect that from him either.

He does knpw the lying bothers me but we can't ever get to a resolution because he just denies it's a lie.

There's only one occasion when he's admitted he's lied and that was when the evidence was right in front of both of us and he just couldn't. Even that was a ridiculous and pointless lie. But it still took three attempts of me saying "Look. It's right there" before he admitted it.

That was only a couple of months ago and I think it's just played on my mind a bit because there was no doubt. It was literally there in black and white.

A small 'white lie' that some would see as insignificant and isn't malicious is one thing but it made.me realise that he was prepared to sit there and lie to my face even when I could see that he was. So, now, anything could be a lie.

Which is why these smaller, insignificant things are starting to feel bigger.

I've told him out right that I know he lies to me and it affects how I can trust him. He just denied it. Which was another lie.

People here have very low standards, for themselves and for others. Just because 'most' people lie doesn't make it acceptable. Most people gossip too, but it's still nasty. We can acknowledge that certain behaviours are common whilst also saying 'that's not okay, so I'm going to strive to change', and apologise when we fail.
Simply saying 'ah well, most people do that so you should put up with lies and gaslighting OP' is not what we should be aiming for in relationships.

Have you seriously challenged him on it OP, at the exact time it happens so he can't deny it? What does he say?

Lying is not black and white. There is a certain amount of lying that is necessary to keep social and intimate relationships working, but there's a line, and that will be personal. If we all went through life telling nothing but the truth things would get messy very quickly, and you probably wouldn't have a job by the end of the week.

In the same way your past experiences have shaped your attitutude towards what you see as lying, he's got his own set of circumstances that have informed his. I think the fair and only thing to do would be to tell him in the moment when you are having difficulties with what he is saying, and how it makes you feel and why, and then see if you can move forward with some honest communication.

It sounds like he's on eggshells trying to accomodate your wishes and not upset you, but in doing so he's making things worse.

You're as responsible for this as he is, you need to be able to clearly and honestly communicate your feelings, and if it's still not feeling right then move on seperately. But I predict you will find it difficult to find someone who will agree never to say they think you are beautiful to them.

Actually you don’t understand and you are not easy going.

You log everything he says and does “taking it down to be used as evidence against” him.

All of that stuff about his ex wife is insane- has it occurred to you that sometimes she was/is friendly and sometimes not. That both are true and no-one is a LIAR!

It is actually so so simple OP. You think he’s a LIAR! the worst thing in the world, so why are you with him? If he isn’t good enough and you can’t trust him why don’t you do the decent thing and end the relationship?

Or is it actually a bit more complex than that, and there is a pay-off for you in labeling him a LIAR! the worst thing in the world, so that you get to be good or moral or superior one in the relationship, he gets to be the shit under your shoe. (Been there, done that, thank fuck I’m out of that nightmare).

@AreHisPantsOnFire I'm really surprised at the responses you are getting on here and suspect it may be because many posters have been lucky enough not to have been in a relationship like this. It's true that we all tell little white lies from time to time. But when it's constant, it's wearing and becomes increasingly infuriating. And you start to lose faith and trust, hence now wondering about his overtime. I have been in a relationship like this. It was only towards the end that I realised how damaging it was. And sadly, as my children got older, he started doing it to them and they noticed it. I couldn't protect them from it as we'd split by then. They now refuse to see him.

Oh OP. I'm too tired to get into specifics but I feel for you. I sympathise with you. I know exactly how you feel. It's very hard to explain it without sounding like "hard work".

I don't know how you find a way through it and maintain a healthy relationship as I know it's something that is so ingrained in you. It's hard to just 'let it go'.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm just better off alone. Sad but true.

Have you posted about this before? I distinctly recall reading about a poster that absolutely cannot stand any sort of lies in a relationship and cited previous relationship/childhood trauma. It seems such a specific situation I'd be surprised if there two of you posting on MN about it.

'When the reality is that my hyper vigilance is a response to noticing the lies rather than the cause of it.'

No, OP, your hyper vigilance isn't a response. A response is secondary to a cause. Your HV was always there, as you say, from childhood experiences or the likes.

I'm willing to bet his little white lies are a response to protect himself (and in his eyes probably you). As you keep tabs on him and have to ask him to carefully pick through and source out acceptable films to watch in the evening as an example. So he's probably indirectly protecting himself. His response is secondary, and you risk pushing him away. You say he's a good man and you like him. I wouldn't put up with this and if a bloke posted on here doing this to a woman, she would be told to run for the hills and quite rightly so. In fact many men to post about this sort of thing with women, and he would get very different responses from what you have.

I think you need to concentrate on getting help to try and resolve this. He is not the problem. You are the one who has brought all of this to a normal relationship. Having boundaries is healthy, but this is unhealthy. I wish you all the best though OP.

You might be to him.

He doesn't 'put up' with anything.

He lies to me.

He lies about having lied which means I now don't trust him.

If he hadn't lied thee would have been nothing for him to 'put up' with
What ilhe is experiencing now is the consequence of having repeatedly.lied which means I now mistrust even the little things.

I think that given the fact that you are convinced that he lies to you, and that lying is a dealbreaker for you, you might need to do the inevitable and end the relationship with him. There doesn't seem to be any other answer, if everything is so binary?

He probably tells these fibs because he’s absolutely petrified of you over analysing every word that comes out of his mouth and questioning it and twisting things.

If I felt like I was constantly under police interrogation I would be panicking and making slip ups.

OP, I'v eread all your responses and honestly, I have no idea. If what you think is happening is really happening, then yes, it's not great. But it's very difficult to tell if it is happening or if it's just in your head. Even the thing with his ex - annoying as shit, but also not weird.

The point is thatyou don't trust him so the question is how do you m aintain this relationship in that case?

Are you neurodivergent OP? The reason I’m wondering is because ND people sometimes have the black/white thinking and are seeking absolutes/perfections in different areas of life. That’s just how the ND brain is wired. Shades of grey are interpreted as untruths and are often met with suspicion and interpreted as lying.

Youre not taking into account human behaviour. I'm not sure you'll find a person alive who doesn't forget what exactly they did on a particular morning when they left...they typically kiss you so they forget that particular morning they didn't, or you might actually have been snoozing when they did it. He might not be into overly graphic sexual scenes himself but if they happen to come up in a film he's not so troubled by it be skips the film entirely, whereas with you he's sensitive enough to make sure there aren't any in there. There's some distance between not particularly liking something and being incapable of tolerating it.

If he's broadly speaking a trustable character, says what he means, sticks to it, this focus on any kind of minor discrepancy I'm afraid sits in your camp as an issue.

This. I’m the same OP and have over the years come to accept that I must have some neurodivergence. I also have a lot of trauma and hypervigilance. This kind of ‘lying’ feels tortuous to me: why o why can’t the person just show me the world as they see it, not an edited version? I have come to understand that these lies are actually what most people just accept as the warp and weft of normal living. It’s been difficult.

And I meant to add it can feel like a really hurtful barrier the person is putting up against true intimacy. Which I know to them feels bonkers.

I have recently been spending more time with a man like me though and it is a breath of fresh air— he just doesn’t have this layer of interpretation to everything.

And ditto the things they say. He’s using ‘you’re beautiful’ as shorthand for ‘I think you’re beautiful’ or even ‘I want to make you feel beautiful’, none of which are lies to the normal person but to you may feel deceitfully imprecise.

OP l think you've had a tough time with the comments on here. I understand your concerns as l had an ex partner who l discovered lied as easily as he breathed. Little white lies and big lies, anything really to get away with something but also avoid conflict with me.
He was a great guy in many ways and he did love me but it didn't stop the lies. I usually found out eventually and of course promises were made but it was so destabilising and caused me so much anxiety that l knew l couldn never fully trust him. I think that's the bottom line, you don't trust your partner and when that happens you feel hypervigilent and unsafe in your relationship. I have no answers though, only you can decide what you can tolerate.

It's exhausting just reading this, I can't imagine what it's like to live it (and I'm saying this as someone with PTSD who has dealt with hyper vigilance).

The way you're describing it, the good things about this man do not even come close to outweighing the anxiety and distress being in a relationship is causing you.
I, and many others, don't see that he's done anything wrong, but it's your life and you can decide your own boundaries. You can't control his behaviour, but you can choose how you react to it.

You said that you have 'zero tolerance for lying', and you think he's lied, so end the relationship.

To be honest @AreHisPantsOnFire , I'd struggle to think of any of the examples you've given as lies.

Beauty is subjective, if he's your partner then I imagine he does find you beautiful,

The kiss in the morning, if its something he does frequently then I'd just assume he's got his mornings mixed up, and he's remembering yesterday morning or the morning before. For instance, I struggle sometimes to remember if I've actually taken my tablet with dinner, or whether I'm thinking of yesterdays dinner.

And the TV one, why do you think he's lying. I have a really really strong dislike of depictions of torture. I've just watched Outlander Season 1, which has a truly horrible depiction of torture at the end of it. I'm still going to watch season 2, because I really enjoyed all the other elements of the show. Maybe he isn't a fan of gratuitous nudity, but enjoys the show despite it.

The only one that I'll give you is a lie is the one about his ex. But even that is designed to spare your feelings. That one, yeah, have a discussion about it and resolve it, make it clear you'd prefer he didn't do it, but it wasn't done with the intent to hurt you.

Everyone lies, I bet if you really think about it you can think of some tiny tiny ones that you've told yourself. Small lies are a normal part of human interaction, and I think you'll struggle to find a partner who will never lie to you.

The only one that I'll give you is a lie is the one about his ex. But even that is designed to spare your feelings. That one, yeah, have a discussion about it and resolve it, make it clear you'd prefer he didn't do it, but it wasn't done with the intent to hurt you.

It wasn't designed to spare my feelings. I imagine it was designed to enable him to avoid having a difficult conversation with his ex wife.

If he'd had that conversation with her years ago then he and his ex gf wouldn't have argued about it and I wouldn't have been left feeling like I couldn't say anything because I was led to believe that it wasn't in her nature and felt he didn't believe me.

I knew his ex gf and she was a lovely woman. I was more cross for her tbh because I'd only mentioned it once but they'd argued about it so she was really clear about how upsetting it was to her.

The rest of your post though, I see your point.

Well if you'd never lied in the first place, there would be no reason to doubt what you say.

That's how I feel.

He must be walking on eggshells all the time.
I don’t think the issues are with him……