Partner (understandably) dislikes my Mother, where should I stand re our daughter?

[Smithy92]

Hi all,
Apologies in advance, long post incoming. My wife and my mother do not get on (understandably so) for a variety of reasons. To name a few:

• my mum is very outspoken and slightly overbearing towards me (always being highly involved and overprotective / overworrying) which is the opposite of my wife's mums nature. She'd also been raised in a way thar parents could say what they wanted and it should be respected (ignorant of if right or wrong), which was inevitably part of my upbringing too.
• My dad's an alcoholic and as such we decided for our daughter to not be around him when drunk. At my last birthday he was drunk, we removed my wife and daughter, and my mum blew up questioning our decisions (as it was my birthday) directly at my wife. Causing a huge argument between me and my mum, and a lot of bad feeling obviously.
• This then re-blew up one day I was not at home when it was bought back up and my mum continued to tell my wife how the way she spoke and the way she acted was fair. Causing another argument with me and my mum, to which I finally achieved an apology for my wife from my mum.

Obviously this in itself is enough to drive my wife away from the family and understandably so, as such we've distanced ourselves, with only I attending some events leaving only birthdays and Christmases for my wife and i to attend together, which I can cope with.

We do however now have a 1.5yr old daughter, with my wife telling me she now doesn't want my mum to have any relationship with our daughter at all, nor does she want me to take her to see my parents at all.

My question is, am I wrong to keep trying to push this grandmother / grandchild relationship or is it unfair to expect that relationship to continue? She's a good grandparent who's never hurt our daughter in anyway, and was always an important relationship I wanted our daughter to have prior to all of this. Id have thought it should be equal say that should be respected, but how can I navigate it and am I wrong?
Thanks all

The issue is whether your mum can have a relationship with your child without bad mouthing, and/or undermining your wife to or in front of the child. Also, will your dad be there and will he be sober? These are genuine concerns. However, if you want your child to have a relationship with your parents and your mother can behave herself, perhaps you could suggest doing things like going to the park with you present, to allow them to spend some time together and bond. Make it public and not for too long initially. If a grandparent is safe, I believe that a child has the right to know them and have a relationship with them. However, I do understand your wife’s concerns too. Maybe it would be a good idea to work on the relationship with your mother and your wife before letting your mother see the child. If this relationship is repaired enough, your wife might feel more confident having your daughter around your mother. Speak to them both. Tell them you would like them to work on their relationship for your sake and for the sake of your daughter. At the very least, you will see each other at some point and a bad atmosphere will also be damaging for your child. They are both adults and the needs to try and repair their relationship for the sake of the family.

So, to clarify

Your dad is an alcoholic

Your wife and child left a family event by agreement with you when your dad got drunk

Your mum kicked off over this.

It's never good to have an alcoholic in a child's life. Your dad shouldn't be around your child and you should be protecting your wife and child from your mum who is clearly enabling your dad.

I suggest therapy for you as growing up with an alcoholic parent will have given you very flexible boundaries.

i find it a bit odd that you say she hasn’t hurt your daughter and this forms part of her being a good grand parent. It’s the minimum I’d expect from any human so it’s not exactly a plus point.

from the sounds of it, though, I can see why your wife is hesitant. As above, it would seem your mum is likely to bad mouth her and fail to shield her from a drunk grandfather. Personally I don’t think kids should be in a household with an active alcoholic as it is incredibly harmful to them.

short supervised outside visits may be a way forward, but if you had to cajole a begrudging apology out of your mum, she is never going to change and I think your wife knows this.

This is a highly charged emotional situation where protecting your daughter needs to be at the heart of it - and it isn’t clear cut at all so no you aren’t wrong at all and I see why you want a relationship

that said the damage caused by not having a relationship is a lot less than could be caused by having one - so how much damage do you think it will cause

cutting her off though does seem drastic - maybe just going to events first without her and seeing if you can build a relationship back up

You did the right thing going home when your dad got drunk.

However the question is do you trust your mum to keep her opinions of your wife to herself and for your dad to stay sober ? Even if your leave every time your dad is drunk, that will have an effect on your dd. Is it worth the risk ? Are you happy having your police them indefinitely and not be able to relax in their company ? It won’t be long until your dd knows the word drunk and has her perceptions on alcohol changed. It sounds like your mum is the type who would not agree to a relationship with strong boundaries. For example if you suggested a couple of hours a month doing an activity like walking around a National Trust place (no pubs ) then it sounds like she would the type to kick off. Your dd will be damaged by being exposed to someone who kicks off at the drop of a hat and alcoholic enabler.
As dd gets older, it will get tougher for you. Your mum and dd could push for overnight stays because sleepovers sound like fun and would you be strong enough to say no? If your mum kicks off that any boundaries that you set are your wife’s fault, would you stick up for her?

Based on your OP, why do you want dd to have contact with your parents when they sound damaging ? Is it because your grandparents were great or do you think that it’s a fairness thing because dd sees your wife’s parents?

You say that she’s never hurt your dd but when your mum yelled at your wife and you weren’t there, wasn’t your dd? Hurting your daughter’s mother will be damaging to your daughter. Similarly kicking off when you took dd away on the birthday will also be damaging dd. It’s not long before dd starts remembering instances and asking difficult questions about these sort of situations.

Whose side are you on - your wife's or your mother's?

You need to pick one, and I suggest you pick the mother of your child.

@LeroyJenkinssss @Octavia64 @Snorlaxo @Tiswa @TipsyJoker @TentEntWenTyfOur thanks all, tagging all as similar points made so can clarify on all.

So I did (and continue to) defend my wife and take her side over my mothers, ultimately our daughters health and safety comes first so it's always been agreed that was the action plan, and how mums actions / response was entirely invalid and unfair (hence finally achieving an apology).

My mum would also never badmouth my wife (especially not in front of me or my daughter), my mums also happy to always come away from their home to maintain the distance from my dad when he is drunk. We'd never even consider unsupervised visits at the moment but the struggle for now is to have a conversation with my wife, involving me taking our daughter to the park / my sisters house etc (some neutral ground thar isn't our house as not to invade her private space), without her blowing up at me and explaining that's never going to happen.

I don't know how to help mend the relationship even to the point of me taking our daughter to see my mum alone for an hour or two a fortnight.

So obviously having your daughter around an alcoholic is a bad thing.

The problem you have is that your mum has really bad boundaries.

She kicked off because your wife and daughter left because of your dad's behaviour.

She is using intimidation and aggression to try to get your wife and your daughter to collude in the "there's nothing wrong with dad really".

Your wife doesn't trust your dad for obvious reasons.

She doesn't trust your mum because your mum has made clear she values pretending that everything is ok over protecting her grandchild.

So if you keep suggesting taking your daughter to meet your mum, no matter where, your wife will be worried that your mum will bring your dad along because your mum clearly doesn't care about protecting your child and will put your dad first.

Most children of alcoholics have been strongly socialised to pretend that everything is ok and that they are a normal family really. They are not. Your mum knows this and at least part of her upset is because your wife is exposing the lies she has no doubt been telling herself for the last few decades.

@Octavia64 I can understand why you say that (and I don't think you're wrong about me being desensitised to it) but the concern of my wife isn't that my mum will bring my dad along (this is self admitted by my wife), but the fact her grudge runs so deep she doesn't want them to build a relationship on the basis of my mums personality.

I can understand that. Your mum's personality is such that she doesn't really see the harm in your dad being drunk so she will push and cajole even if it's very subtle. You've also mentioned being overbearing and expects to be respected, that means she will undermine you both to your daughter and your boundaries are not strong enough to take the steps needed. You won't be able to hide behind your wife if she's not there, can you stand up to your mother in your own right.

Edited for autocorrect

It sounds like your wife has the measure of your mum ( and dad) .

I don’t have the answer - but i have had an abusive mother of my own ( but a wonderful kind calm father) . I wanted my children to have a relationship with Dad and they adored him . That involved not leaving the kids with them alone ever . She did behave better to them than she did to me , though shouted at them a couple of times and they really didn’t like her - I think they picked up on who she really was and that the relationship was all about her not them .

I would suggest you listen to your wife and get yourself some counselling to help you find the way forward . I bumbled my way through this and unpacked a lot of stuff after my mother passed . Don’t though ruin your relationship with your wife by pushing on with trying to build a relationship with a poor parent

How is your mother’s relationship with other family members? Has anyone else cut or limited contact with her?

I am sorry OP but your wife has done nothing to deserve any of this appalling treatment and I can understand why she doesn’t want your DD near either of your parents.
If your mother can be such a pleasant grandmother, why can’t she be a decent MIL? Your wife would see the doting granny act as a front.
I do feel for your mother being around your alcoholic father.
You are also the child of an alcoholic and that is awful for you, too.
But I don’t think there is anything to be done here unless your mother can prove she’s actually a decent, kind person in general, not just when it suits her.
Your DD will pick up on all of this over time. She needs a grandmother who can be trusted, who can care for her unsupervised, and generally be someone who can be relied upon.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus @PeggyMitchellsCameo my problem is, since that time she's not brought my dad near our house drunk, let alone my daughter nor niece. She has proven she (now) respects that, and regularly cares for my niece in the week multiple times absent of my dad. Her and my niece now have a great relationship.

@Birdscratch her relationship is okay with others, my sisters partner thinks she's overbearing too, but is more laid back to the intensity of her personality. My all round struggle is she's proved she's respecting mine and my sisters wishes re my dad, proves she's a capable guardian to my niece, but the underlying grudge is getting in the way of me being able to show that to my daughter.

I think you need to say to your wife yiu understand that right now your daughter is too little but as she gets older and more capable you would like her to have the choice - saying that your daughter can never see her is too absolute yiu would like a maybe in the future

I don't know how familiar you are with the dynamics of an alcoholic in the family, but its common for a close family member to be an enabler, and that sounds like your Mum.
Its a sad situation but its not of your making, and its now your job to be a father and husband. When you leave a situation because your Dad is drunk, you quietly pack up and go. You don't make an announcement, and you don't allow the enabler to create a scene, you just walk away and leave.
You might want to Google 'the Karpman Drama Triangle' and 'covert narcissist'. They might help you understand the complicated dynamics of your parents relationship.

You need to speak to your wife and mother about repairing their relationship. If they don’t, your wife will continue to hold the grudge and won’t agree to contact. I don’t think this will be easy for your wife as she’s been attacked for nothing. She is the innocent victim in this. On the other hand, your mother has apologised. There needs to be some resolution. Family therapy might be a good idea. I would put it to both of them that it would benefit you if they could at least be civil and try to move past this. They both love you and I’m sure they wouldn’t want to make things harder for you. Additionally, it won’t be good for your wife to hold on to all that anger either. It would benefit her to be able to put it to bed and move forward. If they won’t go to family therapy, suggest individual therapy to your wife to help her process what happened and help her move on from it in a healthy way. Grudges hurt the one holding then, often more so than the other party.

I feel that if someone doesn't like me or isn't respectful to me then they don't get the enjoyment of my children, who are part of me..

which I finally achieved an apology for my wife from my mum

Has your mother apologized to your wife at all? It's not much of an effort if she tells you she is sorry, but not the person she kicked off at.

my mum blew up questioning our decisions (as it was my birthday) directly at my wife

So, you as parents together, made a decision that you felt was in the best interest of your child, but your mother took issue with your wife only over this?

I think you really need to sit with this and reflect, the root problem here is that your mother believes (correctly it seems) that you are biddable and she has no respect for your wife, even though you and your wife have jointly agreed on a course of action to protect your child.

@TipsyJoker I must admit I thought counselling/ therapy might be the best route, as I feel there's a lack of understanding (from all sides) on how this currently impacts me and in the future will impact our daughter. I had tried this previously, but the counsellor essentially enabled my wife's feelings, not looking to resolve anything, eventually making it worse.

@Dontbeme I had my mum apologise to my wife (I didn't receive an apology). It's difficult to put a route forward though, to other adults she's straight to the point, and quite abrasive at times, but to other children (I.e. my niece) she's a really good grandparent. Impossible to win either way round.

She's your daughter as well as your wife's, and although I agree you should be on your wife's side, that doesn't extend to your wife having the only say over whether your mum can see your daughter.

Look, your mum has behaved appallingly.

At your birthday party your mum kicked off at your wife over a decision that you both jointly made.

If I was your wife I would have been incredibly upset and absolutely devastated.

It's fairly normal in families with alcoholics for there to be crises where on family member either physically or verbally attacks others - and then the rest of the family are expected to just accept this and "resolve" things so that the dynamic can continue.

If you've never been part of this type of dynamic, then it's incredibly shocking to have a grown adult who is supposed to be able to be civil suddenly throw a load of verbal abuse at you.

It's worse afterwards, when you realise that the family expect you to collude in pretending it never happened and moving on and "resolving it".

You need therapy. Not her. You.

You have been socialised into accepting verbal abuse and alcoholism as normal. They are not. Your wife is now aware of how dysfunctional your family is and doesn't want to be around it herself and doesn't want her kid exposed to it.

She's the normal one. Not you. You are trying to drag your daughter back into your dysfunctional family because that's what your mum wants and you've been socialised to do what she wants.

Nobody benefits from a relationship with an alcoholic. Your daughter should not be around your dad and personally I would feel she should not be around your mum either as frankly your mum is clearly a nasty piece of work.

Maybe you need to step away and let your mum figure out how to repair the damage with your wife. If your mum really wants a relationship with her grandchild then she needs to fix the problem she caused. But ultimately I can see why your wife doesn’t want her child to be part of this horrible family dynamic. You can’t really view your mum as a good grandparent as though it is completely isolated from the rest of her behaviours and choices.

Your wife and child should be your joint number one priority here, not your alcoholic father and his enabler in the shape of your mother.

And I would agree that you need therapy as you have grown up within this dysfunctional family so it’s regarded by you as normal. Al-anon would be a good starting point for you.