Partner (understandably) dislikes my Mother, where should I stand re our daughter?

[Smithy92]

Hi all,
Apologies in advance, long post incoming. My wife and my mother do not get on (understandably so) for a variety of reasons. To name a few:

• my mum is very outspoken and slightly overbearing towards me (always being highly involved and overprotective / overworrying) which is the opposite of my wife's mums nature. She'd also been raised in a way thar parents could say what they wanted and it should be respected (ignorant of if right or wrong), which was inevitably part of my upbringing too.
• My dad's an alcoholic and as such we decided for our daughter to not be around him when drunk. At my last birthday he was drunk, we removed my wife and daughter, and my mum blew up questioning our decisions (as it was my birthday) directly at my wife. Causing a huge argument between me and my mum, and a lot of bad feeling obviously.
• This then re-blew up one day I was not at home when it was bought back up and my mum continued to tell my wife how the way she spoke and the way she acted was fair. Causing another argument with me and my mum, to which I finally achieved an apology for my wife from my mum.

Obviously this in itself is enough to drive my wife away from the family and understandably so, as such we've distanced ourselves, with only I attending some events leaving only birthdays and Christmases for my wife and i to attend together, which I can cope with.

We do however now have a 1.5yr old daughter, with my wife telling me she now doesn't want my mum to have any relationship with our daughter at all, nor does she want me to take her to see my parents at all.

My question is, am I wrong to keep trying to push this grandmother / grandchild relationship or is it unfair to expect that relationship to continue? She's a good grandparent who's never hurt our daughter in anyway, and was always an important relationship I wanted our daughter to have prior to all of this. Id have thought it should be equal say that should be respected, but how can I navigate it and am I wrong?
Thanks all

Sounds like your mum apologised only because you cajoled her into it. Or did she genuinely reflect and realise she was unfair and out of line?

''Your wife doesn’t have a “grudge”, she has an insight into your mother’s behaviour and rightly recognised it as toxic''

This, and its pretty worrying that you think the counsellor 'enabled' your wife. Be sure you aren't misusing the language of therapy to support your position, because its possible you are mistaken about your wife's position and motives.

This situation isn't about being the bigger person, its about managing toxic behaviour to lessen the damage it can do.

Way too much drama...

Your wife and child need to come first.

I think you have boundaries issues. Your child does not need alcoholic, toxic grandparents in her life.

It really is up to you to say that your parents behaviour is unacceptable and that as long as alcohol is abused and your mother creates a scene, they are no longer welcome in your home.

Tough but you won't get anywhere by trying to appease everyone...

I see no reason why your wife should deprive your child of a grandparent, providing that you are there when the contact happens.

Yes, you mother behaved very badly, but your child safety is not an issue, you will be present, and you seem confident there will be no bad mouthing (and if there is, of course you would remove yourself send your child and reconsider)

Dislike of the grandmother isn't a reason to prevent contact. I disliked my own mother intensely (long story) but we visited for short periods, my daughters were never alone with her, and there were no problems.

And she's apologised to you for your wife, but not apologised to your wife. Its not a real apology, it was under duress, and backed in to a corner.
Yes, your family you have right to have a relationship with your parents independently to your wife BUT is it safe physically safe, emotionally safe are different thingsand somebody who enabled an addict, and says what they want bo matter the context or right/wrong could be very damaging to your daughter.
It doesn't mean no relationship necessarily, but an intentionally boundaried one.

(my wife) has confessed herself she's not concerned about it happening in front of our daughter, or her being abusive towards our daughter, but she simply dislikes her as a person so much she doesn't want her to have the enjoyment of our daughter

That's unacceptable. She doesn't get to use your daughter to punish someone.

And your wife still dislikes your mother and her toxic personality and either you accept that or you don't and leave. Then you get to do whatever you want with your daughter in the time you gave contact with her.

If you want to be in the marriage then you accept that your wife has a right to not facilitate your toxic mother's requests. A grandparent has no legal right contact

However yoh do have a right to your view too. However you do seem to be minimising your mother's behaviour towards your wife. And indeed have changed your story. Originally you say your mum apologised to your wife via you but now you say she did so directly. Why the change in story? I suspect you know your wife has a perfectly valid point .

Wherever I've said about apologising to me is a mistype in amongst the bumf I've written out. Smi thought I'd said it a few times in the comments, she apologised to my wife directly, not to me nor through me (but apologies).

My wife has an entirely valid point, I completely understand the upset, but as I'd mentioned before I struggle with the reason I cant take our daughter there being she simply dislikes her personality and wants to restrict the enjoyment that would come from being around our daughter.

Why does your mother's enjoyment of seeing your daughter outweigh your wife's desire to keep her daughter away from a toxic relationship.

Please go light on me with this one, I'm trying to work out where things are fair / unfair.
She's been horrible a couple of times, in which she apologised, she's then faced the punishment of missing out on our daughters first 12 months of life, has respected our boundaries in keeping our dad away when drunk, and respected the other boundaries we set in relation to other things. She's been a good grandmother to me niece so is it not natural to want to rekindle things / allow her supervised visits every so often?(It may well not be natural in which case please do tell me, I grew up in an enmeshment environment so my normal isn't necessarily everyone else's normal)

You're not being unreasonable.

Your wife has the right to dislike your mum, and you've been honest about your mum's actions.

But I don't see your mum as unsafe for your child to be around, particularly as you've said that she's respected all your boundaries in this last 12 months, and is a good grandmother to your niece.

Your wife has admitted that not letting her see your DD is as a punishment for your mother, rather than to protect your child. That's not on. You've confirmed that you will always be present, and that should be enough.

Your wife is starting to sound more vindictive then your mum, at this point.

She's been horrible a couple of times, in which she apologised,
Apologies are often not enough to rebuild trust. Your dwife simply doesn’t trust your mum. She has been deeply hurt and an apology coming after many (?) talks from you to your mum is one that has been extracted with brute force rather than mine that came willingly because she knew she was wrong.

she's then faced the punishment of missing out on our daughters first 12 months of life, has respected our boundaries in keeping our dad away when drunk, and respected the other boundaries we set in relation to other things.
If your mum hasn’t seen your dd for the last 12+ months, she won’t have had the opportunity to put in practice the whole ‘im keeping my dh away’ etc….

She's been a good grandmother to my niece so is it not natural to want to rekindle things / allow her supervised visits every so often?

The way she is treating your niece might well say nothing about the ways she’ll treat your dd.
Also what do you call being a good grandmother?
I have been the child dragged to see grandparents that didn’t behave well (in my case towards my dad). I can still remember the tension in the house and been deeply uncomfortable. There was nothing on paper that said ‘oh they’re not good grand parents. Maybe a bit old fashioned but that’s it.’ And still I could tell and couldn’t wait until I could stop seeing them completely. And I was only seeing them about once a year…..

The OP has said
She ... regularly cares for my niece in the week multiple times absent of my dad. Her and my niece now have a great relationship

This is a hard one I do feel for you… but you both have to be in agreement to allow contact.
Could you see if there’s a compromise to be made with your wife? Maybe a one off supervised contact for an hour at a soft play and see how it goes?
If your wife isn’t happy with this you could consider counselling to discuss the issues?
Your wife is probably deeply hurt and needs time to process and to be honest if someone was abusive to me I wouldn’t want them round my child so I get why she feels the way she does.

I don’t think it’s right for your wife to refuse your Mum a relationship with your child. If you are satisfied she’s a good grandma and not toxic with your daughter, then you should stand firm and tell your wife you will arrange visits with your daughter to granny’s house but that to refuse contact completely is cruel. Regardless of your Mum’s actions with your wife, this is about your daughter who should have the right to a meaningful relationship with her Grandma.

To be honest I think you will have a choice to make in the end. The relationship between your wife and mother will likely never be repaired as she just doesn't see her as a safe person and has had no experiences to show that she may be changing or becoming safer so her priority is the child. If you continue to push you may end up with no wife if she seems the danger big enough and thinks she's not being heard.

Honestly I don’t think it’s unreasonable for you to take your daughter to see your Mum (away from your Dad), every few weeks. Your wife doesn’t have to come, she can enjoy a couple of hours peace & quiet. I have pretty toxic and awful in laws and in the past there have been extended periods of time where I haven’t spoken to them. But I recognise that Grandparent relationships are important and can be really special, and I’ve never prevented contact between my children and my husband’s parents (although admittedly I’m not always there). We don’t own our children and they are aren’t an ‘extension’ of us-but it’s our job to nurture them appropriately and I can’t see how supervised contact will do any harm at all- presumably she trusts you to keep the little one safe. Children love being part of wider family and knowing where they come from. You can’t use access to your children to punish people for past behaviour, which is what your wife is doing.

If you want to facilitate a relationship between your Mum and your daughter, just do it yourself. You don't have to try to shame or blame your wife for her feelings.

Part of the problem you are having when making decisions is you aren't really familiar with the relationship dynamics when alcohol abuse is involved. Google the Karpman Drama Triangle, and consider getting more therapy from a therapist that understands alcoholism, covert narcissism, and enabling behaviours. Al Anon would be a good start.
https://al-anonuk.org.uk/how-do-i-get-help/

Honestly I’m in a very similar situation to your wife. This situation is scarily similar, however our daughter is now 3 and we have a second baby also. MIL was verbally abusive in front of our daughter (even though she was a few days old and unaware, I still find it unacceptable) and has also said things in front of her other grandchild. I don’t let the kids see her at all, their mental wellbeing is more important to me than upsetting MIL. My other half revisits the topic of introducing her every now and again when she contacts him to try pressure him into it. He also grew up in an enmeshed situation, which makes it hard for him to fully process what’s normal and sometimes struggles to see the manipulation. It’s a firm boundary for me that, unless she’s proven to have been to therapy and able to contain her temper and emotional outbursts, she won’t be around the kids or I. My other half has a lot of emotional damage because of her and his upbringing and I won’t have that inflicted on our kids.
Yes, your mother is losing out but that’s her own fault. Your daughter isn’t any worse off without that grandparent, as presumably she has plenty people in her life that love her already.