Partner (understandably) dislikes my Mother, where should I stand re our daughter?

[Smithy92]

Hi all,
Apologies in advance, long post incoming. My wife and my mother do not get on (understandably so) for a variety of reasons. To name a few:

• my mum is very outspoken and slightly overbearing towards me (always being highly involved and overprotective / overworrying) which is the opposite of my wife's mums nature. She'd also been raised in a way thar parents could say what they wanted and it should be respected (ignorant of if right or wrong), which was inevitably part of my upbringing too.
• My dad's an alcoholic and as such we decided for our daughter to not be around him when drunk. At my last birthday he was drunk, we removed my wife and daughter, and my mum blew up questioning our decisions (as it was my birthday) directly at my wife. Causing a huge argument between me and my mum, and a lot of bad feeling obviously.
• This then re-blew up one day I was not at home when it was bought back up and my mum continued to tell my wife how the way she spoke and the way she acted was fair. Causing another argument with me and my mum, to which I finally achieved an apology for my wife from my mum.

Obviously this in itself is enough to drive my wife away from the family and understandably so, as such we've distanced ourselves, with only I attending some events leaving only birthdays and Christmases for my wife and i to attend together, which I can cope with.

We do however now have a 1.5yr old daughter, with my wife telling me she now doesn't want my mum to have any relationship with our daughter at all, nor does she want me to take her to see my parents at all.

My question is, am I wrong to keep trying to push this grandmother / grandchild relationship or is it unfair to expect that relationship to continue? She's a good grandparent who's never hurt our daughter in anyway, and was always an important relationship I wanted our daughter to have prior to all of this. Id have thought it should be equal say that should be respected, but how can I navigate it and am I wrong?
Thanks all

your Parents are not safe enough emotionally to be around as they are both unhealthy individuals. What good would it do your child to be at s

at all involved with them?

Your wife has shone a spotlight on these unhealthy dynamics. Calling it a grudge diminishes her concerns completely. She is trying to protect your child from what dhe

Sees as unhealthy influences

If you mother is toxic, critical, incapable of protecting a child from a drunkard and full of venom to anyone who doesn't respect her despite her poor behaviour then why would you want your daughter to have a relationship with her? What good consequences could come out of that contact which would counteract the psychological damage she would do?

All fair points to be honest, I've definitely been raised in a manner that's normalised abuse of different sorts (we've recognised that previously). Brushing things under the carpet is part of the norm. I guess that's why it's a difficult topic for me, as the norm is to forgive and forget but actually that's not necessarily the right thing to do.

Causing another argument with me and my mum, to which I finally achieved an apology for my wife from my mum.

This sounds like your mum apologised to you for her behaviour towards your wife? Has she actually apologised directly to your wife?

This. 100% This.

This.

Sounds like the counsellor heard what everyone here is hearing. You’re mother is an alcoholic enabler, who at least twice was verbally aggressive to your wife in front of your child. This is abuse towards your wife and your child. You have allowed your mother to be abusive towards your child and you want that abuser to continue to see your child. A child should be no where near a child until they’ve been sober for a year.

You went into counselling wanting your wife to change but are unwilling to see how messed up you’re family relationships and boundaries are. You need to wise up.

I think you caused the rift inadvertently. Your wife is shouldering the blame for your dd leaving early, which was a decision you made and should have taken responsibility for by leaving with them.
It's your child too though, so if you wish for there to be a relationship with your mother, that needs to happen, maybe by your mum coming along when you take your dd to the park or something to start with.

Agreed.

OP you are still enmeshed in the unhealthy dynamic of your dysfunctional family. You need help with that.

Your wife doesn't have a grudge, she's holding a reasonable boundary with your mum who has abused her in the past. Your wife is protecting your child.

Do you really want your child exposed to someone who enables an alcoholic, who shouts at your wife for holding a perfectly reasonable boundary, and who can't even apologise properly and spontaneously for behaving badly?

You need counselling to understand your issues and work through them. The other counsellor could see the issues clearly, that's a huge sign for you that you should be taking note of.

Stop arguing with your wife and get therapy.

Just one other point to make about your mum being a good grandparent. My dad was all levels of awful growing up but like most abusive parents had his good sides. We too always forgave and forgot. He was a brilliant grandad to my two dc, until he wasn’t. Once they got to late primary school ages his behaviours toward them changed. I went no contact as soon as it happened. It may have been a dynamic I grew up with but seeing it happen to my own children was not ok.

I get why your wife feels as she does. But I feel it is unfair to your child to deprive her of a relationship with a grandparent.
Also your wife should not be making such decisions unilaterally.

I was the equivalent of your dd in this situation. My parents allowed (carefully controlled) contact. I would say that it really wasn’t worth the bother. I gather that they were nice to me (and my brother) when we were little (but I can’t remember any of that) and then “ok but not great” as we grew up. My parents put themselves through a lot of hassle for “ok but not great”.

What I would say though is that their impact on me and my brother was benign because my parents had very very strong boundaries and so we were fully protected.

Some of my aunts / uncles had poor boundaries and I think that their influences on some of my cousins was really quite damaging. At least one of my cousins is now quite disfunctional as an adult (and we are all in our 40s now so little chance of it changing). There are undoubtedly many other factors to that but contact with toxic grandparents without very strong boundaries definitely didn’t help.

So I guess what I’m saying is that best case scenario - she will be sweet whilst your toddler is cute and adorable (but the world is full of people who are sweet with adorable toddlers) before you then are able to protect your child from the impact of them. Worst case scenario is that they will ruin your child’s life.

Are you absolutely 100% confident that your (not your wife’s - yours) boundaries are strong enough here. Your wife’s are but you want to overrule them. If you keep contact without your wife then at some point you will have to do something - on your own and without her there backing you up - that will upset your mother and cause her to scream at you. Are you sure you have the strength to do that?

Echoing what others have said, I think that it is clear that your mum has been verbally abusive to your wife in front of your child and is unwilling to reflect on her behaviour and build bridges.

Having a relationship with your mum involves an expectation that your mum is right and cannot be challenged however unreasonably she behaves is basically what is written in your OP. I can see why your wife would be pretty wary of that. You have backed your wife to a degree, but you basically want to sweep it under the carpet and are not doing very much to challenge your mum's "hurt on all sides" view, which is often what difficult people say when they have caused others pain. I can see why your wife feels unprotected and has therefore become more protective as regards your daughter.

Can you honestly say that you'd step in if your mum was trying to manipulate your daughter, even if she wasn't saying outright nasty things? Will you have your wife's back? I think that the counsellor probably picked up on the fact that it really isn't a slam dunk that you are able to recognise and challenge abusive behaviour.

Your mum has put you in a really bad position, does she realise that it's all on her? Is she desperate to make amends, and what is she doing to achieve that? It's all very well saying oh she knows NOW, she won't do it NOW, but the damage has been done. I'm sorry you're in this position, but any pressure from you needs to be on your mum, not on your wife.

Hi OP, this sounds like a difficult position for both you and your wife.

Your post really resonated with on a couple of levels - I grew up with alcoholic grandparents and one parent who is an alcoholic. I also have a very fractured relationship with my SiL and consequently don't have much of a relationship with her myself anymore but am trying to navigate what relationship my DCs have with her as an auntie.

I think overall I understand your wife's concerns (as I feel you do too). It struck me from your replies that you say your mum wouldn't directly badmouth your wife, but then in your OP you say that she "blew up directly at her". I'm sure that having experienced this at a gathering, your wife has no trust that your mother won't behave the same way again or in front of your child. Even taking your dad's alcoholism to one side, your mother's behaviour towards your wife alone would be enough to make me want to protect my child from witnessing this.

For what it's worth my experience is much like that of some of the other posters in a similar position - my parents did a lot to safeguard me from my grandparents (they never looked after me without my parents there, visits were time limited etc) but I can honestly say it wasn't worth it. I never felt close to them and my only memories of them are either of them drunk, emotionally dysregulated or of general toxic dynamics. I understand why my parents wanted to give me an opportunity to have a relationship with them, but realistically it wasn't possible to feel really close to them. I wonder if it would be the same for your daughter as well.

*Just to add my comment re your wife not being able to trust the future comes from my experience with SiL. DH's family is very keen for me to sweep under the rug, as you describe in your family dynamic OP. Problem is, now that I know how volatile and hurtful SiL can be I can't ever trust that she won't do so again in the future. And I'm sure your wife is scared that one day your mum will demonstrate the same behaviour again, possibly towards your daughter.

Thankyou again all it's appreciated. I definitely can see things from my side being essentially a not good reality / life but we are where we are. Counselling for me is something I can and probably should look into. To clarify, my mums never been verbal in front of our daughter, and personally I trust she wouldn't make the same moves again given she's already been materially absent for the first 18months of her life, she has apologised to my wife directly too so has tried to make amends. Similarly has tried to reach out, plan smaller trips to rekindle things, left my dad at home when drunk 100% of the time, so boundaries have been respected since then.

My biggest concern is, I understand where people are coming from re my wife's views, but she has confessed herself she's not concerned about it happening in front of our daughter, or her being abusive towards our daughter, but she simply dislikes her as a person so much she doesn't want her to have the enjoyment of our daughter. Which to me I can't resonate with for that reason, had it been the former (I.e. what you all suggested was the problem) I'd be able to understand more.

Sadly your wife's position is one of punishment.

Best to let all of this cool off for a while. You'll never fix this, it's best to reflect on what's happened and give people time.

Whatever your Mum has done, she has apologised and altered her behaviour. She still loves you, that's why she's tried to mend bridges. She's grappling with an alcoholic husband, probably caught up in all sorts of hurt and disappointment. Give each other space and don't force any relationships which are, for now, going to create more pain for everyone.

@DownTheTracks this has been my feelings too, I will always stand on my wife's side and have protected us as a unit at all times. But we're now 14 months post the disagreement and unsure how much time to give things to resolve.

Sadly your only friend at this stage is time. There seems little scope for your wife to show any compassion which leaves you at an impasse.

Therapy for yourself might help you find peace and/or explore ways to find a path out of this which is workable.

Your wife is entitled to her view, as is your Mum. I personally find that extreme views on family members in these circumstances robs children of the love of grandparents, especially as you say your wife knows your Mum is not a danger. Hate is insidious, as you are clearly experiencing.

The problem is that your daughter won’t always be a cute wee toddler. She’ll grow to be a child and then a young woman with her own character and opinions (as she should), at which point she will be incredibly susceptible to the influence of your mother’s parenting style and also, no doubt, to her shitty entitled behaviour where she can do no wrong and everyone must tiptoe around her.

Your wife doesn’t have a “grudge”, she has an insight into your mother’s behaviour and rightly recognised it as toxic

If your mum is brave enough to have an argument face to face with your wife, then she should apologise face to face, not through you.
Do you want your daughter to be pushed around? She needs to stop being overbearing or have limited contact.