Could being undiagnosed ASD lead to narcissism?

[Purplejumper9]

I’m just wondering about my partner mum. Our child is in ASD diagnosis and I’m sure my partner is undiagnosed.

My partners mum appears very narcissistic. She avoids me like the plague and has no interest in being around for support for any occasion, birth of children, illness etc. She will happily parade her other child’s family around and there is no ND issues with those. But she won’t actually help them. The son really seems to want her love. She will make nice comments on SM but in really life she hasn’t seen our children for a long time. She just has no interest in supporting them and loving them. She always has to be the head of things, like all the local committees. She is seen in the community planting flowers and waving at elderly people but when it comes down to supporting her family she is nowhere.

Is it possible that someone could be ND without knowing and have developed a narcissistic type personality to cover the shame this brought. They discover being in control gets them attention and have lost all empathy. When standing in front of her and talking it feels like there is nothing inside her, she isn’t listening.

No. You do not develop narcissism you either are a narc or you are not. i hate being told my narc mum is 'ill' with mental health. She is sick and twisted but it is not an illness. I have asd and not a narc.

Sorry I don’t mean to offend. I know many ASD people including my partner ( I’m sure he is) and they are amazing. I just wondered if it could occur in the perfect storm for someone.

People with adhd/asd tend to have a lot of empathy which is not at all what a narcissist is. I am not in the least offended, my mother is text book and I am just happy I am not like her!

Why is poor behaviour always blamed on autism . You don't need to find a reason for someone not being very nice .

There was significant trauma in early childhood also. The reason why I though ASD might play a part is because of our child is in diagnosis. I’m sure it’s from her dad and I thought the mum.

I’m not blaming the autism but perhaps growing up with no awareness could have caused not so nice coping mechanisms as an adult. Like abandoning anyone who really needs her support because she sees it as being faulty somehow.

Yes it is possible for narcissism to co-exist with autism and many other conditions. The difficulty is that people will tell you to look at the underlying motivations for the 'narcissistic' behaviours. Ultimately, while the underlying motivation might help with a diagnosis, it's still okay to just say 'Yes the motivation may be this but the impact on others is still harmful in these ways'.

I have no idea what the motivation is behind her behaviour. I just feel like she needs to feel in control. The other family she is more in control of and they are easier to navigate as have no ASD and they ask her for nothing because they are more interested in giving her attention, if that makes sense. It’s a safer relationship for her because they don’t ask for what she can’t give. (But I can tell the son is constantly behaving in a way to get her approval). We as a family do need support. It’s hard having a child with ASD and currently no plan. She is not available. We will ask for some help and she always has to check what she is doing and whether she can fit any help in blah blah so we don’t ask. It’s like she has to be in control of whether she gives help or not.

How do you know she sees it as being faulty somehow?
I'm not defending her not showing support (although that is her choice).
But you diagnosing her with whatever fits your narrative is pointless and grasping.
What if she does and is it won't change her or her behaviour.

Op, autism can also look like a trauma response/complex ptsd

Think about it, she says one thing and does another, is difficult to read, unpredictable. This puts someone on edge, he then has to mask/camouflage how he really feel in order not to provoke his mum's anger. This suppression eventually leads it coming out, burn out because he can't contain it anymore

Poor chap

Because she only reflects this superior air about her. She is literally perfect. She thinks what she says is the only way, how she has lived is the only way. If you go against this then you are wrong. Eg I had a bit of PND I think after baby. I was sitting at home on my own an awful lot. I said it would be nice to have some company. She said when I had my baby I used to walk up and down the road, that’s what you need to do. It’s not what I needed to do, what I needed was different. She couldn’t fathom that her idea was not what I needed and she said I was just too lazy because I didn’t make her idea work. It’s her way or you get ignored.

My partner has issues with possessions, wanting to hold on to absolutely everything. I thought this was due to ASD but sometimes I think maybe it’s something else and his mum has caused damage because I’ve only known her for a few years and I’m confused as hell. I feel for him.

I am no therapist/psychologist, etc, but from what I know those are two separate things and they can obviously co-exist.

My understanding is that narcissism is developed as a response to dire and unloving circumstances in one's childhood. If a child does not get the required affection, care and attention then they feel that they need to make up for it themselves and the narcissistic personality is born. It is obviously not the only response there is, but it is one of the options.
I do not think that autism plays any part in it, but somebody more qualified will probably be able to explain properly.

This is one of typical narcissistic traits.

Her mum died very young, I think around age 7. I just wonder if she was a ND girl anyway and then this and the narcissism was born to cover all the pain. Who knows she is just so difficult to understand. I never know whether to stay clear or not.

I never know whether to stay clear or not.

It would be best to. You will never 'win' with her. You will never have a healthy relationship with her. You will spend so much time trying to work her out and once you think you know what to do she will just move the goalposts. You're lucky that she is avoiding you, it makes avoiding her easier.

Dr Ramani on YouTube is a great help if you want more understanding.

The bottom line is that you need to protect yourself and your family by having no expectations of her then you won't be disappointed.

@Purplejumper9 Are you my SIL? I feel like you're describing my mum, right down to the childhood trauma. The description of talking to her and it feeling like there's nothing inside her is so relatable. Mine also posts lots of gushing things about her grandchildren on SM but when they're actually there in front of her telling her about their school play or whatever she'll literally just go dead behind the eyes and say something unrelated like "Gosh this room is so dusty".
She also has lots of ASD traits but I'm never sure how much of that is maladaptive coping strategies from her childhood trauma.
Either way, I think it's possible for several neurodivergences and/or personality traits to coexist in the same person, and for there to be some overlap between how, say, autism and narcissism and self-preservation manifest in any given individual. I also think autistic burnout - which may be more likely in undiagnosed individuals - can include an element of emotional shutdown that can look the same as certain features of narcissism.

It’s the inconsistency that makes me wary. My partner (who probably is ASD) is consistent in all situations. He struggles to understand people’s feelings but he doesn’t pass them off he tries to connect to his in his way. She is so very controlled but does seem to have a lot of ASD traits that I’ve read about.

She had an extremely close family member diagnosed with cancer. She chose to go on holiday and states she stays away from visiting because it’s best for the sick person….bollocks she stays away because she really just doesn’t care and people will notice so she makes shit excuses. It’s not normal!

People with ASD are more likely than NT people to develop personality disorders. Personality disorders are often a result of childhood trauma and kids with ASD are more likely to have a traumatic childhood.

ASD runs in families, so it's quite possible that your MIL has ASD. If your MIL has ASD and had a traumatic childhood then it's quite possible she developed a nascissistic personality disorder as a coping mechanism.

It sounds like your partner may be a hoarder? Hoarding is often a way to manage stress and difficult feelings, people who hoard often have anxiety, depression and OCD. If he had a difficult childhood with him mum, felt unloved and unseen then this may be his way of coping.

I would suggest being very distant but very polite - she will throw you under a bus (metaphorically!) in a second if you stand up to her, she will cut her son off without a second thought. I'm telling you now, tread carefully and keep your distance as much as possible. It's very sad for your husband.

It’s the inconsistency that makes me wary.

Listen to your what your instincts are telling you. It's a very common trait for them to turn things round/change their minds/say that's not what they'd said/etc. It's all about you not knowing what way is up, doubting yourself, feeling wary, you being wrong, her being right; all in all it's about her having the upper hand

The more you stay away from her and the less brain time you give her the healthier it will be for you and your family. If you need to have any interaction with her, look up grey rock.

This raises a question I've wondered for a while - how do doctors determine if someone has autism or if the behaviours are just learned? I know there's a genetic component to autism, but considering how much learned traits from parents can impact on someone's personality, reactions, experiences, does anyone know how this is picked through in diagnosis? Would be really interested to read more on this topic.

I grew up in a narcissist/ sociopathic family. My understanding is that Narcissism is created, it does however require a mixture of temperament and environment. You could say that being Autistic may increase the risk factors if the environment is such ( trauma, neglect, severe over indulgence).

So you could be both Autistic and a Narcissist.

In my experience, an Autistic person ( generalising massively) may have behaviours that are seen as offensive but the intention is not to hurt or gain power over others. With a narcissist, it all comes from an unpleasant place with no good intent. There is no ' innocence ' or innocent self protection as such driving it with a narcissist.

So the Narcissism could be a coping mechanism for feeling alone and abandoned as a young girl (her poor mom dying). If I’m always in control I will always have what I want maybe? That’s why I feel like she sees any vulnerability as disgusting. She also really isn’t interested in a healthy relationship where the relationship grows by naturally taking interests in other lives. She just seems to expect that she will be important having done nothing to earn it.

I've seen this explanation often but honestly my sympathy for it has diminished. The 'innocence' of the intent may or may not help motivate behaviour change but increasingly I think we need to focus on the impact of the behaviours on others regardless of the motivation.

One thing I have observed is that many autistic people have empathy and capacity to self-reflect on how their behaviour impacts on others. In these cases adjustments can make a huge difference. However when narcissism co-exists with autism traits the chances of behaviour change are very low indeed. The grandiosity of narcissism collides with the black and white thinking of autism. Everyone else is the problem.

I can even think of one case where someone with NPD and ASPD had self-diagosed with autism and was furious when the psych team firmly pushed back on this. He had been behaving like an outrageous prick in the workplace and screamed at everyone that he was autistic as some sort of justification. He wasn't. He had some autism traits but they were likely trauma-based. His NPD and ASPD were definitely trauma-based.