Could being undiagnosed ASD lead to narcissism?

[Purplejumper9]

I’m just wondering about my partner mum. Our child is in ASD diagnosis and I’m sure my partner is undiagnosed.

My partners mum appears very narcissistic. She avoids me like the plague and has no interest in being around for support for any occasion, birth of children, illness etc. She will happily parade her other child’s family around and there is no ND issues with those. But she won’t actually help them. The son really seems to want her love. She will make nice comments on SM but in really life she hasn’t seen our children for a long time. She just has no interest in supporting them and loving them. She always has to be the head of things, like all the local committees. She is seen in the community planting flowers and waving at elderly people but when it comes down to supporting her family she is nowhere.

Is it possible that someone could be ND without knowing and have developed a narcissistic type personality to cover the shame this brought. They discover being in control gets them attention and have lost all empathy. When standing in front of her and talking it feels like there is nothing inside her, she isn’t listening.

@Foxblue I understand that in couples therapy a narcissist can often dupe their therapists and get them on side against the poor partner.

@SquirrelSoShiny he may have been both Autistic and NPD in that case. It sounds like he's both.

My teen is Autistic and says things that trigger me. For example ' it's just a joke' and ' you're overthinking' . I go to absolute town on this and find it completely unacceptable. It's a zero policy approach tbh because I am aware of NPD and have been around it my entire life.

It's a tough one.

@Purplejumper9 the hospital incident is so interesting. My Autistic son was very honest and open and said I find it really horrible being in a hospital. I hate the smell and sick people, it scares me. ( Truthful and honest and explained why he was reluctant to come). Narc parent never came once and made up a load of bullshit excuses, because being truthful and seen for who they are is something a narcissist never wants.

Exactly I’m also terrified of sick people. My mum was sick growing up. Sick people remind me of feeling unsafe. But I go and if I’m asked that is my reasoning but mostly I am able to just go and suffer because I know the other person is suffering. Sometimes we bond over the suffering as we all human and suffer and hate it. She on the other hand I’m almost certain doesn’t go because she doesn’t care, that’s widely different and no one wants to admit they aren’t quite human.

I couldn’t understand how someone could book holidays over their grandkids births. An autistic person surely wouldn’t pre plan like this. It wasn’t accidentally one, she made sure she wasn’t available for all the births. (Despite living 10-15 mins away from all). Other than the fact that she simply didn’t care and being there would make it obvious because she can’t hide her face and actions. I mean my dad walked in after I gave birth sobbing his eyes out. You can’t fake this.

I also found the hospital incident quite interesting.
My mother, who is a NPD textbook example, hates discussing anyone's grave illness or death, she would not volunteer to visit people in hospitals, go to funerals unless absolutely necessary.

I think it is more down to how they react to their own anxieties and the way they try to put themselves first rather than the person who is unwell, etc.

When I was 4/5 I got quite sick. There was a genuine fear of leukaemia. I stayed in hospital for 3 months and back in those days hospital policies were very different and parents were not (or very rarely) allowed to stay with their kids.
She did visit me every day, but for the next two decades (or more) I was exposed to her constant complaints of what I had done to her and the stress I had caused her.

Never in my almost 50 years has she said (and I am absolutely sure that it has never occurred to her) that it must have been such an awful/terrifying experience for me. Never. Because it was all about her. I was only 4 years old. All she could do was blame me for getting sick and making her life difficult.

So, back to your MIL, with narcissistic personalities it is all about themselves. They seem to be locked in this state where they are constantly trying to make it up to themselves and put themselves first.

I still have not found the right way to deal with it. Good luck to you with your MIL.

Thanks and to you, these people are challenging. It’s like they need constant reassurance that who they are is ok by only surrounding themselves with people the same or they manipulate into being the same. Any difference in opinion feels very threatening when it’s nothing like they. We are different people, have different experiences and someone’s else’s experience doesn’t make mine any less. If I say I don’t agree then she automatically assumes I’m saying you are wrong and she has to say something not kind in response or leave us out.

Yes, I notice the same in my mum and some other people with similar personality (disorder). They are indeed challenging.
I have an acquaintance/friend with school age kids who is an updated version of my mum and I really feel for her kids. I often wonder how they will turn out.

It's quite alarming to see how flippantly terms like "narcissism" and "Borderline Personality" are tossed about these days.
No wonder so many teenagers are self diagnosing.

Personality disorders (narcissism being a cluster b personality disorder) and various mental health issues can of course coexist, but let's be clear: narcissism doesn’t originate from autism or vice versa, just as it doesn’t stem from post-natal depression or anorexia. Whilst there may be some shared traits like social withdrawal in both narcissism and autism, this does not imply a direct connection between the two.

Previous comments have mentioned trauma and narcissism, there's also a very strong genetic component to narcissism. My own mum is a narc as is my sister is with secondary psychopathy. All her kids have been taken away.
They both constantly create drama and manufacture crises, overestimate their own importance while underestimating others. They crave excessive admiration, lack empathy, psychologically abusive, truly believe they're superior beings, gaslight routinely, and are manipulative and demanding, with an endless need for validation and a tendency to belittle, fall out with everyone, make threats. They are some of the most dangerous people you could meet. I could go on and on. It’s one of the reasons I’ve made the (very difficult) decision to not have children myself, to break this cycle.

People seem to muddle the flat affect seen in autism with being callous, and confuse it with things associated with psychopathy or narcissism. This line of thinking if popularised could lead to awful consequences for very vulnerable groups who are not narcissistic at all. True narcissists would LOVE to misuse that confusion to their advantage. My abusive mother would absolutely love to label herself as autistic. Autist people do not deserve to be lumped in with that.* *I’ve worked with autistic kids, and I can assure you, autism ≠ narcissism.

Impossible to know.
Ive found adults seem to get worse or seem worse as they age as they become even less flexible.
It could be any reason your mil doesnt want to help
Could be issue with driving
Looking after young kids
That she actually struggled a lot with her own so doesnt want to or physically cant
Or she doesnt like you
Finds your asd child annoying or even she doesnt believe in asd so thinks you are wrong in how you treat him
Just selfish

My eldest is referred for asd and that coukd come from several of the grandparents in fact most are difficult personalities. My mum used to smoke around us and only stopped when she had a heart attack. Now with the GC she does love them... But wont put that much effort in for them. Like we see them but she falls asleep (and or sleeps most of the day). She wont fly so cant see other GC.
I think while they were the parents some selfishness is hidden as you have to do what parebtd say. But when they have gc and cant flex around their child or the GC. As i say the other GP are similar drive me crazy when meeting up as have to stop for their coffee etc. Exoecting paeents with young kids to go to them (they arent old!) But its a 2hrs the kids are stuck in the car (fighting!)
There is perhaps a element of what wouod be considered selfishness around asd behaviour sometimes as for eg dc friend he will only ever do what he want so if you want to meet up but he doesnt like xyz then no meeting up. No compromise.
I think also friendship itself isnt important - to him except having someone at school.
My dad you could say his special interest is football so peoples lives all determined by himn being in for certain matches

What LizaMinelli wrote above.

Autism is a triad of social impairments and is also not a mental health condition. One does not lead to the other.

This and NPD are two completely separate things. NPD is a cluster B personality disorder and narcissistic people have no empathy whatsoever.

Last time I chatted with my mum was after DH had a stroke, and she asked why I always make it about me. She isn't like this because she's socially awkward; she just believes the universe should revolve around her, and if it doesn't, she'll cause a scene (fake an overdose, fake an emergency, fake winning the lottery) to sort it out. Not autism.

She could be autistic and also be narcissistic - it's not one or the other. There's no need to wonder if coping with undiagnosed Autism caused narcissistic traits. It could cause different thinfs or bring about different behaviour issues - some even harmful to thenselves and others - like any other unsupported issue but it won't make someone have a narcissistic personality disorder.

But an autistic person could develop a narcissistic personality after a large trauma in early childhood couldn’t they? The only reason I’m using the word autism is because we know it’s in my partners family and it’s not from the dads side. She definitely has many autistic traits but also some which aren’t and much more narcissistic. Like she isn’t interested at all in the other person perspective, couldn’t care less.

You'll have to break down what you mean by 'narcissistic personality' and you'll see you're probably using it wrong.

Do you mean they could have <insert one or two traits> that a narcissistic person also has? Yes, anyone could, regardless of autism or not, diagnosed or not, but that doesn't make their personality narcissistic (which means they have most or all of the traits of someone with npd) or have npd.

I grew up undiagnosed, suffered abuse (not sexual) in childhood. I grew up to be a nice person, not a cunt.

It’s the fact that they pick and choose who is in their life. It will be people who make her look good. She ostracises other people completely. She’s throw family parties and dictate who can come and it’s not her own side of the family. She talks down about certain members and says “they aren’t like us”. She has a favourite child who she says how much she loves and how proud of them she is, the other son, my partner absolutely nothing. The other son is a mirror of her.

I'm not sure that shows narcissism especially as she's not imposing that choice on anyone. It definitely shows something though - she seems like an attention-seeker or someone who likes everything to be about her or people to 'worship' her, and just a generally awful mother and, perhaps, person.

She just sounds like a selfish snob who can't be bothered with any of you .
It doesn't mean she is autistic .
Why not just ignore her

She comes across as completely entitled. She does stuff in public and nothing behind closed doors. She has her adult children constantly trying to prove themselves to her. Apart from me because she hated me from the start and I don’t adore people who do absolutely nothing.

Resorce

www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms-diagnosis-and-treatments#:~:text=Causes%20of%20narcissistic%20personality%20disorder&text=Experts%20believe%20that%20a%20combination,being%20rejected%20as%20a%20child

For years I thought my parent was autistic but when they had little response to the death of their child asd alone just didn’t make sense. I’m autistic and absolutely love my children and am very involved with my adult dc’s lives too.

My parent was spiteful with all the cruelty you’d expect from someone in a position of power with the emotions of a 4 year old. That ain’t the ‘tism.

I asked all my children recently what the unkindest thing I’d ever said to them was. (You’ll need your big girl pants) I laugh like a drain when I try to imagine my parents asking me things like that

I see the fear of rejection in my own child who is in diagnoses. It’s extremely hard to relate to her because she lacks empathy. None of her actions include anyone else’s feelings. I can see how the mum must have felt if she perhaps was ASD with lack of empathy and then her mum dies. That’s really terrible rejection. I do feel really sorry knowing she must have suffered but her behaviour now is not nice. I mean it must be easier to blame everyone else and build this world than believe that you are completely alone.

My partner loves his daughter also in his own way and you won’t here him say love ever but you can feel it.

You’ve got a lot on your plate op. How much real life support are you getting? I’m a generation ahead and I wished I pushed myself to make more contact with other families with children with SN when mine were little. (Turns out I’m autistic so it would have been mighty helpful for there to be resources to support undx parent of dx dc, an obviously frequent turn of events but hey ho)

I think having loving people in our lives is vital for all of us at whatever stage we’re at and one of the single most supportive things you can do is filling your life with more good people.

Actually having read through your posts, it has become apparent that her behaviour bothers you a lot even though you do not have much contact with her and she is not your mum (thankfully).
Her behaviour is certainly challenging and I can absolutely see the upsetting side of it. However, I think that you should look more closely into your own upset to try and unpack why you find it so upsetting.
No matter how challenging these characters are it is within our own selves that the answer usually lies.
Could it be something to do with your own child, your husband, your mother or yourself? It would be useful to try and explore this with a therapist. You may discover something significant that would help you make peace with yourself and these circumstances.