My relationship with my parents - destroying me and making everyone miserable.

[whatiswrongwithme]

I've name-changed for this. I really need to talk about this and perhaps get professional help. I've just made an appointment with a Relate counsellor. I hope I've done the right thing or are there any organisations that are more suitable for my problem (I think Relate is geared more towards partner-relationships and such .. is this right?)

I feel a lot of dislike and resentment towards my mother and father individually. But especially my mother. I don't know why. They have been good parents, they've loved and cared and done so much for us as parents. There hasn't been any trauma or abuse when I was growing up. They are over-bearing and quite controlling which I recognise is the start to why I feel the way I feel towards them. It seems like they feel they have the right to say anything, in the name of 'love and care' for me, even if I have not asked their opinion or help. We've never had a relationship and I can't have conversations with them without losing my cool. Things they say would invariably irritate me. Of late, I've been in an email-war with my mum - it started from something that she said that really incensed me as I felt it was a critism, but it really wasn't. But because I reacted so strongly, she did too and now it has escalated into a full blown fight with old wounds re-visited. I hate the fact that she thinks very highly of herself (although she would deny this) and that she values 'face' so much. Dare I even say it, I don't even know if I love them. It disturbs me so much.

They're all normal problems between parents and children, I'm sure ... but I do not understand why I feel so strongly against them. It's so bad that it's starting to affect my relationship with my DH and DC. DH cannot understand as well and everytime he witnesses another fight with them, he wonders why and shakes his head in disappointment. I don't want him to think I am a bad person. I'm not - in everyday life as my capacity of a wife, mother and friend, I am normally thoughtful, caring and good fun to be with. But when it comes to my parents, I morph into this awful person that screams and shouts at them. I don't want to be like that and I really want to do something about that before my DCs are old enough to realise something is very wrong with their mummy and she's always nasty to her parents. It's making everyone miserable, even my brother has been writing to me and saying what an ungrateful, nasty person I am. I know my behavior are not justifiable - I need to understand why I feel like that and behave that way.

I've tried to change. I've written to them to say I'm sorry for my behaviour and that I will try to change. But even that isn't enough anymore. I've given up trying to make the effort. It seems to go unrecognised and in some ways, my letter absolved them from any responsibility and gave them more reason to chastise me for the awful daughter that I am.

I'm not sure why I'm writing about this. I guess there is no one else to talk to about this - DH thinks its an issue that my parents and I have to sort out and quite rightfully, doesn't want to get involved. I think I've made the right decision about getting professional help but is it the right one?

They sound like hard work. I'm afraid I don't agree that your behaviour is unjustifiable - the level of constant criticism would drive anyone to bad responses. (Would it be ok for you to tread your DCs as your parents treat you? How about if your ILs treated your DH this way?)

This sort of issue is exactly what any normal counsellor would be good at dealing with. Relate is normally (I think) for couple issues, although I'm sure they'll be fine with this too.

It almost sounds like one of those things you go through as a teenager. Then you move out and hardly see them as a consequence and suddenly you all start getting on quite well again.
The key is not seeing too much of them!
Anyway of reducing contact?

Funny you mentioned - I live 6000 miles away from them! That hasn't made any difference! Actually, part of the problem I think, is that, because I live so far away and do not have close contact with them, that perhaps the situation is made worse. Perhaps the negatives become magnified by the distance, IYKWIM. Whereas if we lived in the same country, I would probably have shrugged off and rolled my eyes out of indifference.

That's the other thing that really bugs me - they're issues that one would have gone through as a teenager. I never thought, after 10 - 20 years, that I'm still feeling angst over it. Is it me or them ... I don't know!

If they're overbearing and controlling, then that's probably a big part of the cause. A counsellor/therapist will help you to understand how this has made you feel, and what you have ended up doing in response.

It sounds like you aren't sure exactly why you react so strongly to your parents. A good counsellor should be able to help you figure that out and help you to deal with your feelings.

It doesn't make you a bad person, and you obviously don't want to feel this way so try not to be too hard on yourself.

I hope you find some peace

...they are 6000 miles away and still the dominant influence in your life...to the point where it is damaging relationships with the people you actually live with? How do you know your behaviour is not justifiable, why is your brother writing like that?
Were you always made to feel the family scapegoat and the one "in the wrong"?
This is not normal...it sounds like your family needs a "whipping boy", so much so that they are putting their bile into letters. If they were halfway decent they would not refer to things like this constantly when writing, they are not trying to forgive or forget (if you really had offended them which I think you have not in real terms), in fact they sound like they are trying to torture you mentally.

Write down all the instances where you supposedly "behaved badly" or "unjustifiably".
Take them to your counsellor, get them to look at them and assess them from an independent and non emotional viewpoint.

I think you are being bullied by email and talking to someone outside the situation will definitely help.
If your DH thinks it is your parents not you, he is probably correct. How many people would you personally hound across 6000 miles?

As they are very controlling I suspect they are "punishing" you for being away from them. How very very nasty of them, and how not normal they must be.

Please please talk to a counsellor like you have planned and go through each of these incidents that they are piling guilt onto you about. I expect the cousellor will come to the conclusion that it is your family who have the problem, not you.

They aren't outright overbearing or controlling. It's more subtle - most of them are perhaps comments or suggestions.

I should give a few examples although I know they really shouldn't overshadow the existing bigger problem I have with them.

My DD didn't get into any of the 4 primary schools we applied for. OUr 1st choice was a faith school. My mum rang and expressed her concern - she added that if only we had become members of the church, it would probably have secured her place in school. I got angry about it as it made me feel that DH and I did not do enough for our DD and therefore she has to suffer the consequences. In fact, it was really an innocent comment from my mum. I think I was more in the wrong there.

When both my DD and DS were born, my parents came over to stay and help for 5 weeks. My mum cooked, cleaned and helped to care for DS. They are great as parents that way.

When my cousin and her husband came to London to work, they did not have anywhere to stay for the 1st 2 weeks and so they stayed at our's. My mum was really unhappy about us letting them stay (some history and bad feeling between her and cousin's mum) and tried to convince me out of it. This situation has impacted a lot about how I feel towards her - and I think I am still angry with her. I could not believe that, despite that fact t hat my DH and I own our place and we are adults as well, I could not believe that she involved herself in this.

We recently moved and as it is a big financial commitment, my parents knew that we were in financial difficulties. So they gave us some money which helped tide us over which we are very grateful for.

Even when I was in my early 20s, and perhaps going out with friends for the night, she would want to know who I was going out with, how many of them, how many were males, etc.

She gets very concerned even at the slightest domestic argument between my DH and I. When she was last here after DS was born last year, she witnessed one of those regular domestic tiff that I'm sure all couples have and forget. She got really upset about it and later told me not to make things difficult for my DH. This is what I meant about her thinking that they have the right to say anything, just because they're parents.

think I need to count to 10 now ...

Miggsie - my DH thinks that they although my parents may have started being more 'wrong' than me, my behaviour in reaction to them overshadow their actions in the 1st place. I understand what my DH means - I really should have gritted my teeth, bit my tongue, stopped hopping mad and screaming like a child, but that's why I am so troubled - I cannot seem to be decent every time they annoy me. So rather than the problem being about their inappropriate comment / action, it becomes about my unacceptable reaction.

I am not completely blameless - I become verbally abusive and they are equally hurt. My brother sees it from their point of view. So he is equally disgusted by me. But he too is 6000miles away and is single and we live such different lives - he does not have a clue how my life is, even if he tried. Therefore, it is easy for him to judge the situation in black and white.

It doesn't sound like your mum is on your side. It absolutely doesn't sound like she treats you like a responsible adult.

The comment about the faith school was just unhelpful. Would you have said that to a friend? Oh, if only you had become a member of the church? No. Because you know a) it's too late and b) your friend already knew this, about being a member of the church - she would know if this would make a difference, and she would have made a sensible decision about whether or not to join the church.

And the domestic thing ... wtf?!? She's telling you not to make things difficult for your husband?!? Who is her child?

And the business about the cousin - she tried to stop you offering hospitality to a family member because she'd had a tiff with that family member's mum? She does sound quite controlling and difficult.

She sounds deeply insecure, as well - needing to control your behaviour out of insecurity.

Please go see a counsellor. This is exactly the kind of thing they're there for.

And in the interim, take a deep breath. This is not your fault. You are doing your best, and in time, with help, you will do much better.

It does sound like you react in a childish way, or maybe adolescent? You've got stuck. A counsellor will 'unstick' you.

Staying calm always helps.

But them drawing your brother into the argument ... look. Imagine for a minute they were reasonable people. Imagine you were them. Imagine one of your children was responding badly to you, the way you are. Would you be angry? Or concerned?

Oh, and I agree with what Miggsie says, as well, particularly about the scapegoat thing.

I have this kind of relationship with my mum, you seriously could have been writing about me. My dad is ok he seems to actually recognise I am 30 and perfectly capable of sorting my own life out while still managing to be on hand if I need him.

I know exactly where my problem lies though. I am the baby of the family. My mum cannot seem to get that bit out of her head when she is talking to me. I have said to her on more than on occasion that she wouldn't speak to my brother or sister in law the way she talks to me. I think weekly I must say to her mum I am 30 how on earth do you think I cope when you are not around?

I have tried talking to my mum reasonably about how she makes me feel but she is not interested, I am not saying she doesn't care but she does not see it as a problem. She cannot see that her not seeing it as a problem is also a big problem because it boils down to her treating me like the baby again and not treating my feelings with any care.

I have at times found myself in the vicious circle of acting like an adolescent because that is how she is treating me. And it is a vicious circle because she continues treating me like a child because I am acting like one blah blah.
I have got to the stage now where I can roll my eyes and ignore her or tell her outright that her "helpful" suggestions are uncalled for and at times innapropriate for her to have an opinion on. I managed to be like that only because I recognised why there was a problem in the first place and that actually when I thought at times it was my rpoblem it wasn't really it was my mums.

NQC/Miggsie - I don't quite understand the scapegoat concept though. Could you elaborate?

My parents have always told me I was ungrateful. My brother has recently started to. Yes, in some ways, I know they all think I'm the most 'undutiful' between my bro and I. And yes, the fact that I moved away, I think to a certain extent, they think I'm not a good daughter. More so for behaving the way I do when they do/say something.

They all do a lot for me, more than what I can do for them - and I am grateful, but not to the point where I feel I have to bite my tongue and tolerate their comments. Maybe I am an ungrateful person. Please feel free to tell me if I am.

That comment my mum made about my DD's school - it really got to me. LIke what you said, NCQ, I was already feeling stressed and worried sick about it and it really didn't help at all. And besides, she should really have trusted that I, as an adult and parent, would do my best for DD, so making that comment made me feel again like I didn;t know what I was doing. AIBU?

Ineeda - OMG, it nearly feels nice to say 'welcome to the club'. You have put in words what I have not been able to express. And in some breakthrough way, its not occured to me to see it as her problem, not mine.

I suspect you might find the 'toxic parents' thread (the title these days is something about stately homes, it's in Relationships) interesting reading. There are people on there with a wide range of parental experiences, but I suspect there are quite a few controlling/undermining parents. (Mine were neglectful, so a different sort of crap.)

The scapegoat concept. Basically - everyone has unpleasant moods and feelings. Ideally, they recognise those moods and feelings and say 'I'm in a bad mood. I need X (time on my own, a walk, a cuddle, whatever). Please cut me some slack.'

But many people aren't able to accept that they have these moods and feelings. So they blame someone else. I'm not feeling angry/sad/jealous/whatever - but you are behaving dreadfully. So I will take out my (nonexistant) mood on you.

And whenever anything goes wrong, I'll find a way to blame it on you, because, after all, you're dreadful.

People don't know they're doing this sort of thing - but they do it, nonetheless.

here's the advice i gave my sister over 10 years ago in a very similar situation to you: you're a grown woman, step out the 'child' role and do not allow yourself to be 'parented', develop a healthy emotional distance and focus on your own family unit, and finally move on from past hurts, they can't be changed and all you achieve by continuing to argue about them is more hurt, its pointless

of course i appreciate this is easy for me to say (and believe me its a very shortened and consequently harsh version) and i have spent years supporting my sister in trying to achieve a healthy emotional independence for herself. she's recently spent 100s of pounds to have a councellor tell her the same thing but i guess its more believable from someone else

Whatiswrongwithme

Short answer is that your parents are toxic. You have done NOTHING to make them this way, this is their choice. You may be angry at your Mum for good reason, your Dad likely acted as a passive bystander to her moods and controlling behaviours towards you. You have been conditioned under their regime and now you're an adult with children of their own they do not like the way you've separated from them. Everything that they do for you is done with conditions attached. Also many women who have had such parents only fully realise the full extent of their parents behaviour when the offspring of such people become parents themselves.

Overbearing and controlling parents in my book are emotionally abusive ones. You wrote a letter of apology to them - they need to be the ones to apologise but you will not get this from them. By apologising you are further confirming in their minds that you are "incapable" somehow and thus need further "looking after". This is about their continual desire for power and control over you.

Would suggest you read the "Well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages and read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. This will give you more insight into how such people operate and why.

Toxic Parents rarely if ever will give their victims an apology let alone admit wrong doing. I can see why your DH does not want to get involved but this involves him also. He should be supporting your good self and your children primarily. You are also angry with your parents perhaps because you now realise that they cannot or will not provide you want with them.

Not sure whether Relate are actually the right people to talk to in this regard, you may want to contact BACP www.bacp.org.uk for a list of counsellors. Counsellors are like shoes, you need to find someone whom you can really open up to (hence the first one may not help but the second one might).

Two more suggestions for you - install caller id on your phone and block your Mum's e-mail address.

Um, the big difference between a counsellor and an amateur (imo) is that a counsellor will help you see it for yourself, will guide you to the truth. The funny thing with insights about ourselves and our history is, being told them by other people is all very well, but for the truth to really work, it needs to be something we work out ourselves.

You are certainly not emotionally strong enough to confront them yet but if you do you need to bear the following in mind:-

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too.

To be fair, Attila, these dreadful parents haven't really "chosen" to be dreadful. They don't know any better.

The fact they haven't chosen to be dreadful doesn't mean anyone else has to choose to stay in contact with him.

Some siblings never come to realise that their own parents are toxic hence your Brother's reaction. Your brother is favoured by your parents and does not want to rock the boat because if he does he will lose favour too. You have always played the role of "scapegoat" in that particular dysfunctional family unit.

You are slowly but surely beginning to realise that your parents and not you are at fault and these faults are deeply rooted in their own pysches. Again it is not your fault that they behave in such a manner.

Ultimately would you want to cut them out of your life altogether?.

Hi NQC,

Re your comment:-

"To be fair, Attila, these dreadful parents haven't really "chosen" to be dreadful. They don't know any better".

That is true yes but such toxic parents actively make no effort to change their own behaviours and absolve responsibility for their actions by blaming everyone except their own selves. They should certainly not be blaming their offspring for their past mistakes.

Whatiswrongwithme,

This is the current "well we took you to Stately homes" thread:-

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/7/488192

Sorry, from what I can tell they don't sound toxic to me.
I think if you are happy in your own decisions and your life then you let slightly irritating remarks wash over you. It's almost asif you are taking out some inner anger on them
Counselling is probably a good idea
I think you need to step back and be a little more tolerant.
Let me know if I am completely wrong- we only have brief information here and it is hard to gage the whole situation, which is always complex within families