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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Should I just put up and shut up to save our marriage?

57 replies

TwistedMelon78 · 18/08/2024 23:50

For context: 26 years together, 17 married.
Such a long post- so thanks in advance if you make it through!

My DH is awesome- we have always had a laugh, get on really well and I am lucky to have someone who loves me.
However, a lack of sex has become such a problem for me. I’ve done lots of soul searching and reflecting, and realised that problems started in my first pregnancy (which was in 2009, ending in miscarriage).
We used to have a regular sex life but didn’t have sex during any pregnancy (2 years into marriage) as he found it weird, and then following a traumatic birth / c-section first time, it took a long time to even think about sex, and parenting took its toll so it just dwindled meaning it was a few years before we did it.
We agreed to try for another child, although if I’m totally honest with myself I knew we had serious issues so perhaps shouldn’t have, but told myself this would solve everything, and I fell pregnant straight away, as in, first time trying, so it was another few years before we had sex again.
In the last 15 years I think we have had sex no more than 20 times.

We have acknowledged that our crap sex life isn’t normal, and tried to sort it out a few times. Last year, I told DH how it was really getting me down and was honest about how I was feeling, and we discussed it at length. He agreed we had to do something, and also agreed that we had both stopped trying to be attractive- we’ve both gained a lot of weight over the years, so said we would give ourselves a year to save our marriage, be nicer to each other, pay more attention to each other and try to be a bit healthier, as well as each work on our own mental health and self esteem.

A year down the line: he admitted he had been depressed (there’s a whole heap of other issues- lack of motivation/drive to do anything, unwillingness to change jobs to make more money (I’m breadwinner, work so much harder yet also am default parent/cleaner/life organiser etc) so he has seen a counsellor which has helped his mood and he has made some changes in his business so more money is coming in.
I have started exercising more, joined a gym, go to classes and feel healthier and have lost a stone (although a recent holiday has meant I’ve gained a bit back); and I’ve been trying to book in date nights etc so we spend time together. He has made zero effort with health and eats so much crap, does no exercise etc.

And everything is lovely- except we just don’t have sex, or even acknowledge it. We recently had a night away in a hotel as we went to a gig, but he refused to shower (his feet stank) and I was so turned off I just went to sleep. He didn’t try to instigate anything- never does. It always has to be me. It’s like he just isn’t bothered.

His sex drive is low, but not non-existent. I know he masturbates in the shower and I know he watches porn on his phone.

He does struggle with low self esteem. He was so upset when I suggested I may not want to stay in a marriage with no sex, and it triggered months of depression, so it’s difficult for me to discuss it with him. He just wants to carry on as if everything is ok, and apart from the lack of sex, it is.

I know he isn’t cheating on me. He really loves me, and I know I’m lucky in that respect. He’s a great dad too.

But I have spent the entirety of my 30s and several years of my 40s wondering ‘is this it? Is this all there is? Am I never going to feel desired, wanted, fancied etc?’ I don’t want to realise, at the age of 60, that I have wasted my best years!

And if I do decide to leave, does that make me a selfish cow? (Not to mention finances- I earnt double his income because he wasn’t motivated to earn more, but it’s not like he was raising the kids- I had to do all that too- but I can’t afford to buy him out of the house or get a mortgage alone, so my kids would hate me for doing it as we would both have to live in crap little houses rather than in our nice house in our nice village)

Am I being an arsehole for wanting more than this?

OP posts:
Blackthorne · 19/08/2024 09:50

Just be careful vaginal atrophy doesn’t kick in and you can’t/don’t want sex yourself!

it doesn’t happen to everyone but certainly enough to really bare it in mind

Claire903 · 19/08/2024 09:52

Blackthorne · 19/08/2024 09:50

Just be careful vaginal atrophy doesn’t kick in and you can’t/don’t want sex yourself!

it doesn’t happen to everyone but certainly enough to really bare it in mind

Yes that would be kind of ironic, in a bad way

DesparatePragmatist · 19/08/2024 10:04

Lots of sympathy and similarities here, OP (although sadly no real solutions). Also breadwinner, default parent and life pilot, ambition-haver and plan maker, no sex for 7+ years because loss of respect and engagement is a huge turn-off. DH amiable companion, devoted to the kids and passive about all challenges.

In my case, I've ended up opting for companionship, separate bedrooms and an attitude that I may be living as if single with a friendly housemate, but I have a nicer house, easier co-parenting and another adult around to take at least some of the load. This may or may not be the right option for you.

You mention a DC is undergoing ASD assessment. Could this be something your DH is also dealing with, given the family link? It could explain many of the issues you're facing and the difficulty in seeing any of it from your PoV.

MightyGoldBear · 19/08/2024 10:09

TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 08:46

He says he is bothered and invested in sorting it but then the actions don’t back that up.
That is a good idea about confronting him regarding the porn, although he will deny it.

Ah ok so he will deny and hide the pornography masturbation?

So he is having a sex life it just doesn't include you. Really he needs a lot of his own therapy. From what you've said here it isnt a relationship issue and in many ways isnt a sexual issue for him.Obviously i appreciate it heavily impacts you in many ways. Im very sorry you're going through this op.

From reading what youve wrote he is hitting lots of the markers that would make it worth investigating pornography addiction. He would first have to do lot of his own therapy before couples counselling would even be mentioned as there is always abuse present. Integrity abuse.

I'd reccomend a apsat/csat trained therapist for him and a betrayal trauma therapist for you. I'd be careful if you go down the route of couples counselling or a sex therapist. The danger is that they will approach it as a couples issue or potentially victim (you) blame.

MightyGoldBear · 19/08/2024 10:22

Here's some sources to have a look at and see what resonates with you and your situation. Particularly the integrity abuse as this is very evident in everyday life, communication, being a equal partner, not lying/ hiding, words matching actions etc

Support for you
Love after porn on reddit is a great group you can find wonderful support from women going through all the same things.
Human navigating betrayal on facebook

Helping couples heal podcast
Pbse podcast
Choose to be podcast
Omar minwhallas secret sexual basement and integrity abuse
The laurel centre
The naked truth project
You will need a betrayal trauma therapist not any therapist will understand this.

For your partner
He needs a csat/apsat no other therapist will understand.
12 step can only take them so far he needs to do a integrity recovery.
Pbse podcast
Your brain on porn book/ website
We reccomend a full 130 days no porn masturbation sex social media TV detox
Omar minwhalla secret sexual basement and integrity abuse.

TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 10:27

DesparatePragmatist · 19/08/2024 10:04

Lots of sympathy and similarities here, OP (although sadly no real solutions). Also breadwinner, default parent and life pilot, ambition-haver and plan maker, no sex for 7+ years because loss of respect and engagement is a huge turn-off. DH amiable companion, devoted to the kids and passive about all challenges.

In my case, I've ended up opting for companionship, separate bedrooms and an attitude that I may be living as if single with a friendly housemate, but I have a nicer house, easier co-parenting and another adult around to take at least some of the load. This may or may not be the right option for you.

You mention a DC is undergoing ASD assessment. Could this be something your DH is also dealing with, given the family link? It could explain many of the issues you're facing and the difficulty in seeing any of it from your PoV.

Not enough space for separate bedrooms but maybe once my eldest has flown the nest.
I’m assuming you have an array of ‘toys’ to bridge the gap 🤣
And yes, I do think DH is undiagnosed ADD/ADHD.

OP posts:
Biggaybear · 19/08/2024 10:32

If you say you will be worse if divorced & you really dont want to split up then could you look outside the marriage for sex.....with his approval of course. Is it sex you miss or intimacy ?

I couldn't go with sex for more than a month (in usual times). Post pregnancy I think we were both at it after less than 2.

And no, you are not selfish wanting to divorce because of the lack of sex. Sex is the thing that differentiates a friendshop from a relationship.

Opentooffers · 19/08/2024 10:45

What was his parents relationship like? He obviously has some deep rooted issues around sex and women. I had the best time in that regard during pregnancy, so glad his father didn't have issues. But then he was a rare man who was anti porn, and doesn't it show in many ways how it affects some men? Is it more than coincidence that men who have a Madonna/ whore complex and can no longer see mothers as sexual beings, seem to watch more porn that those who don't? Men who maybe get a kick out of sex being as sleazy as possible ( not understanding there's a difference between sexy and sleazy), and can't reconcile that with motherhood.
Maybe a sharp shock tactic? Ask him if he'd be OK with opening up the relationship (even if you don't intend to, it hits home and points out its importance).
Some might see it as playing games, but his issue is he doesn't see you as a sexual being, just as a mother- and likely why he's left most of the mothering to you. It's all tied into his basic attitude towards women and has made a hippocrit out of him, given that he has not even fulfilled the stereotype male provider role, while he puts you in a mothering box.
Get marriage counselling, but also change your behaviour. Do less of the home drudge while making him do more. Carry on making health improvements and go out with friends without him, making sure he sees you getting dressed up to the nines prior. Show him that others may see you as attractive- it will boost your self-esteem in the process.
He also should see his GP about anti-depressants as his lack of motivation in general is a barrier.

Kosenrufugirl · 19/08/2024 10:45

Biggaybear · 19/08/2024 10:32

If you say you will be worse if divorced & you really dont want to split up then could you look outside the marriage for sex.....with his approval of course. Is it sex you miss or intimacy ?

I couldn't go with sex for more than a month (in usual times). Post pregnancy I think we were both at it after less than 2.

And no, you are not selfish wanting to divorce because of the lack of sex. Sex is the thing that differentiates a friendshop from a relationship.

I think it's wrong advice. Just recently there was a thread about a woman who ended up madly in love after going for a friend with a benefit. You could find yourself in a right pickle. Also, what if the affair was to come to light? As some of them do, quite unexpectedly. Can you maybe afford to move so that you have a separate bedroom?

junebirthdaygirl · 19/08/2024 11:12

I wouldn't be as blasé about the porn as you are. Maybe that's something you need to think strongly about. It's a horrible insult to you and very disrespectful and to be honest l couldn't resect a man who would engage in it. Would you think of counselling for yourself so you can think through all the options?

TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 11:30

MightyGoldBear · 19/08/2024 10:22

Here's some sources to have a look at and see what resonates with you and your situation. Particularly the integrity abuse as this is very evident in everyday life, communication, being a equal partner, not lying/ hiding, words matching actions etc

Support for you
Love after porn on reddit is a great group you can find wonderful support from women going through all the same things.
Human navigating betrayal on facebook

Helping couples heal podcast
Pbse podcast
Choose to be podcast
Omar minwhallas secret sexual basement and integrity abuse
The laurel centre
The naked truth project
You will need a betrayal trauma therapist not any therapist will understand this.

For your partner
He needs a csat/apsat no other therapist will understand.
12 step can only take them so far he needs to do a integrity recovery.
Pbse podcast
Your brain on porn book/ website
We reccomend a full 130 days no porn masturbation sex social media TV detox
Omar minwhalla secret sexual basement and integrity abuse.

He has the odd wank in the shower- not sure it’s an addiction!

OP posts:
TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 11:36

Opentooffers · 19/08/2024 10:45

What was his parents relationship like? He obviously has some deep rooted issues around sex and women. I had the best time in that regard during pregnancy, so glad his father didn't have issues. But then he was a rare man who was anti porn, and doesn't it show in many ways how it affects some men? Is it more than coincidence that men who have a Madonna/ whore complex and can no longer see mothers as sexual beings, seem to watch more porn that those who don't? Men who maybe get a kick out of sex being as sleazy as possible ( not understanding there's a difference between sexy and sleazy), and can't reconcile that with motherhood.
Maybe a sharp shock tactic? Ask him if he'd be OK with opening up the relationship (even if you don't intend to, it hits home and points out its importance).
Some might see it as playing games, but his issue is he doesn't see you as a sexual being, just as a mother- and likely why he's left most of the mothering to you. It's all tied into his basic attitude towards women and has made a hippocrit out of him, given that he has not even fulfilled the stereotype male provider role, while he puts you in a mothering box.
Get marriage counselling, but also change your behaviour. Do less of the home drudge while making him do more. Carry on making health improvements and go out with friends without him, making sure he sees you getting dressed up to the nines prior. Show him that others may see you as attractive- it will boost your self-esteem in the process.
He also should see his GP about anti-depressants as his lack of motivation in general is a barrier.

His parents are late 70s/80s, and his mum admitted a long time ago she should have divorced him. They bicker and argue and she does EVERYTHING for him.
I’ll admit I have considered a FWB but know that would devastate him, but perhaps the shock of being asked would be enough to spur him into action, like you say.
I am trying to focus more on my wellbeing - both health and looking nice, and he has taken on more life admin recently because I have made him (eg he is sorting out his own car insurance this year for the first time ever because I refused to do it, and he sorts everything to do with DD2s football training. He does the weekly shop although I write the meal plan and shopping list).

I’ve also ordered one of the books recommended earlier by a previous poster- again, to spur him into action by showing him I’m serious.

OP posts:
sesquipedalian · 19/08/2024 11:36

OP, if he has “the odd wank in the shower”, ask him next time he has the urge to come and tell you, so that you can sort him out! You really do need to find some solution to your problem: it’s not just you and him here, it’s your DC as well, and they would be devastated if you were to get a divorce. You say your DH is awesome and loves you - if you said to him that if he is unwilling to have sex with you, then you will have to think about looking elsewhere, what would he say? What I mean is: might it be enough to make him make an effort with you? I do think relationship counselling is the best way forward for you - divorce really should be the very last step: it’s a big deal, and no-one else will ever love your DC as you and your husband do.

TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 11:38

Claire903 · 19/08/2024 09:52

Yes that would be kind of ironic, in a bad way

That would be just my luck- go through trauma of divorce to end up with a non-working vagina!

OP posts:
MightyGoldBear · 19/08/2024 13:26

TwistedMelon78 · 19/08/2024 11:30

He has the odd wank in the shower- not sure it’s an addiction!

And it might not be but its worth considering and looking into the signs. Addiction isn't about frequency at all. It's about using a unhealthy coping mechanism sometimes many to cope with life. It's also more about a mindset/mentality so how he views women. How he copes with stress/uncomfortable feelings such as anxiety depression low self esteem. Lack of drive/motivation/avoidancy. A victim mindset. The list goes on.

The recovery side of things there is so many different elements that many men would benefit from even without addiction present.I'd actually reccomend any man who has grown up alongside misogyny and pornography to do a integrity abuse recovery. I see this kind of abuse in so many relationships even in "good men"

It's also compounding so a viscious cycle making all those issues worse with time. Without breaking the core issues he won't see any improvement with the other symptoms. It's worth looking holistically and being open to all avenues if you're set on staying and working on things. Of course, it's not your job and you absolutely do not need to stay if you don't want to.

It can also be referred to as a intimacy disorder. Perhaps check out sexual anorexia as well and see if any of that feels like it ticks boxes.

Bumblebeestiltskin · 19/08/2024 13:44

Surely it's pretty clear he's not bothered? Letting you take on the lion's share of both the financial responsibility and the general household things, not doing anything to change, not caring if he turns your stomach (refusing to wash his stinky feet 🤢).

Blackthorne · 19/08/2024 20:48

He does sound spectrumy OP.

Is he quite awkward and just feels uncomfortable with it all?

Smelly feet sounds like the perfect excuse.

Research seems to show sex lasts about two years in many autistic NT relationships.

And then it dies. It can be sensory stuff that’s the problem or just other things brought on by differences in communication.

If you visit the “married to someone with Aspergers” threads on here you might find some answers. Pretty much 100% of us aren’t having sex either… sadly

TwistedMelon78 · 20/08/2024 08:23

Thanks for all the insight everybody.
I spoke with him last night- we had a long chat about everything, and we both promised to work on it so hopefully we will be able to bring back the spark we used to have before kids.
We both agree that a couple who have a great sex life but poor emotional connection and friendship are in a worse state than we are, so it’s worth trying everything to save our marriage as we really do love each other.
Most of our problems stem from not communicating well enough- turns out he has often wanted to instigate sex but has assumed I didn’t want to, so I’m going to be crystal clear from now on. I explained I want to be in a relationship where it’s just assumed we both do always want to, so I don’t have to ask for it!
I’ve ordered the ‘Why Women Talk and Men Walk’ book and we have agreed to follow what it says, no matter how uncomfortable as our marriage is worth some discomfort if it will help us open up and see each other again.
He has also agreed to get his beard groomed and make more of an effort with his physical health, including getting more sleep and coming to bed earlier (I explained that sex can never organically happen if we aren’t even in the same space!)

OP posts:
TakeMeDancing · 20/08/2024 12:08

How is his hygiene? Refusing to take a shower when you have unpleasant odours is very teenage behaviour.

DH and I got to a stage where it was 2-4x per year due to work, kids, etc. (A “sexless” marriage is 10 or fewer times/year.)

About a year ago I said, “Look—this is it. We’re in a sexless marriage. Either we start making time for it, or I’m insisting that we see a sex/marriage therapist.” I told him I needed us to be having sex at least once a month. It worked for about 9 months, then I hit perimenopause and my sex drive went through the roof. I explained to him what was happening, that it was my sexual peak, and that I wanted to enjoy my sexual peak with him. Although I wanted it every day, we ended up having sex 2x most weeks, and occasionally only once/week. I’m the one who instigates every time, and sometimes he still says no, but we’re in a much better place and we’re more connected now. Sex does that.

I don’t know if any of this is helpful, but I wanted to share that a sexless marriage can be turned around.

Daisys24 · 20/08/2024 16:44

Oh great news, it seemed such a shame to break up an otherwise good marriage for something that can be worked on. I wish you both happiness for the future x

Mischance · 20/08/2024 16:48

Porn on the phone ..... there it is.

Why should he waste his time trying to please a real live partner when he can just pop one off with no effort whatsoever?

Claire903 · 20/08/2024 16:56

This is a good outcome OP, things looking up.

Cheepcheepcheep · 20/08/2024 17:17

I really think it’s such a communication thing. Pre kids I had the higher sex drive and I used to get upset about him wanking when I would have been delighted to shag. We agreed (no forcing - I don’t think that really works) that if I was ‘available’ (in the house etc) and he felt the urge he’d give me first refusal 😂

Since kids it has slowed down but again we’re back to communication. We’ve both agreed that once a fortnight is our base requirement for the sake of our marriage, it sounds unromantic and unsexy but we’re big proponents of the maintenance shag. Usually on Fridays when we’re both working from home we’ll block our lunch hour so we can get into it without kids at home. Going to be honest, there are times when I’m a bit like ‘oh ok’ (not repulsed by the idea just feels like another job on the to do list) but I’m 95% absolutely into it after 5 mins 😄 DH has said the same and we’ve also agreed that if he doesn’t feel into it enough to ‘perform’ then it’s a ‘enjoy yourself Cheep’ day and ditto on the occasions where I’m not getting into the right place he just gets to enjoy with no reciprocation.

I’m not saying this is right for you, it’s right for us but the important thing is that we communicate. I remember reading once (god knows where) that the most important thing, if you’re not having sex, is to talk about it. Talk about why. Talk about what you miss. Have a few drinks, reminisce about best shags (even if you can’t really face reliving it because you’re tired/stressed/thinking about an email you forgot to send today).

I think relationship counselling sounds good and I’m pleased you’re looking into it. I think for me whenever we’ve hit a bump in the road sexually we always address it as an ‘us’ problem not a ‘him/me’ problem. It takes the blame away - blame not usually helping people feel sexy! - and also acknowledging that we might not have this problem if we were both with other people, but we want to be with each other and we’re committed to sorting it.

I will say that after a couple of years of fortnightly scheduled shags we are getting quite good at shoehorning in some non ‘maintenance’ ones these days :) last one earlier this week he couldn’t perform, too much on his mind, no worries - I had a lovely time and he enjoyed that I did. And no doubt it’ll be vice versa some stage soon.

There are a million reasons to leave your lover (to paraphrase!) and none of those is wrong, if you want to end a relationship you don’t have to get it validated. But personally I think, based on what you’ve written (and especially the latest update) it might be worth not giving up quite yet.

Summerhillsquare · 20/08/2024 17:47

You've had promises of change before though?

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