Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD: support thread 11

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

ND people are more than welcome, some of us are in ND:ND relationships.

I was thinking of chengeing the thread Aspergers/ASD to ND, which I think might be more appropriate and inculsive, but I've left it as it is as I suspect many people find us by searching for Aspergers and/or ASD.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here

@BustyLaRoux thank you for your helpful response. Last night - I really felt hopeless. I felt so so grim.

Thank you for your advice. I do the practical stuff too with DS (referrals, waiting lists, teacher meetings etc). I guess DH felt he was doing the 'practical thing' but saying 'we need to be positive and you need to stop crying because it's bringing me down'.

He once told me he thinks women always cry to manipulate men or get attention. Of course, when he cries (which he does when we talk about splitting) - I give him comfort and it's very 'serious' but when I cry i'm being emotional/unfair to him somehow.

I've known for years he isn't there for me emotionally. In recent years - a still birth. Loss of close family member suddenly. Debt. He gave me zero support through any of it. Just we've had a better/closer relationship in recent weeks, and perhaps I thought I could relax a little and tell him how i was feeling about something - but he just clammed up entirely, became angry, and made it about him.

So I just go back to how I was before. If shit happens - I deal with by myself or talk to someone else.

I know 'narcissism' is over used, but it's actually staggering how he brings it all back to himself. According to him, I shouldn't get upset as it stresses him out, and it's selfish of me to get upset in front of him.

I think I want someone to give me permission to leave. To tell me it's OK to leave even if I have a vulnerable/very young children. But my gut tells me they won't be safe/looked after properly.

@MassiveMugOfTea my partner has said things about emotional women also. I know his mum thinks exactly like your partner. It’s disgusting and I have to say I’ve had to have a good look inwards to see if I’m an emotionally manipulative women myself. The way they treat me you’d think I was manipulative. I’m just a normal human being with emotions and needs though (so I’ve been told). I read on another thread about how people on the spectrum are like those who speak a different language. We literally don’t understand each other though neither of us are at fault for speaking a different language. We have this need to lay fault and use it as reason to leave. He isn’t narcissistic he is ND and he can’t do anything about it. It does feel awful to be on the other side of it but we are the ones who either need to accept or leave because they can’t be any different. I wouldn’t know how to deal with the children. I left a previous relationship due to his behaviour. There are still many issues and I just do damage control and the best I can. I know I can never mitigate everything. It’s hard Im sorry.

@MassiveMugOfTea if you can leave then I would seriously consider it. What you describe is very sad for you. Being accused of being emotionally manipulative (like women in general apparently!) would be a deal breaker for me. @Fortheloveof83 is right I think. Emotional behaviour like crying is a different language and one he will never understand. He gets angry because he thinks you’re crying to bring about an outcome (getting him to give you emotional support). He’s already said he can’t do that. Therefore you crying must be deliberate and manipulative to get him to do something he has told you he can’t do. The idea that people cry (even though you said he cries himself!) because they’re just sad and overwhelmed. It isn’t a means to an end. It just is! This is an alien concept. There must be more to it. There must be a reason (manipulation) and therefore this makes him angry with you.

Either that or thinking about your DS’s hardships makes him sad. He doesn’t know how to deal with that. He would prefer not to have those emotions. So you need to consider his feelings and stop trying to make him sad. When you cry you’re deliberately making him sad and that makes him angry.

It’s so one sided. You must want to scream BUT WHAT ABOUT ME????? I feel like that too sometimes. When we got together my DP told me it was my job to manage him! I mean that was a red flag right there. But I didn’t understand what he meant really. Or if I understood the concept I didn’t understand the detail of what that would entail. I didn’t realise it meant putting my own needs to the back so his could be met. Had he phrased it like that I think I would have had second thoughts!!!

@MassiveMugOfTea I too often wondered about my H being narcissistic as he often brings it back to him and seems to think the world is up against him (covert/vulnerable narc traits). He might be, or he might just be ND as well as an arse. In the end I've come to realise and accept that ND or not, abusive with intent or not, his behaviour is not ok with me and it's affecting my health. So I'm making plans to leave. Like you I worry about my vulnerable child/DD but I can't pit it off much longer now. It is ok to leave but might take some planning and even counselling/therapy to help build up the confidence and to feel strong enough to do so. Therapy plus this thread has given me permission to start making plans. Sending strenght and a strong Swedish ☕️

@LittleSwedeI think we all need to realise that we don’t need permission for anything. Who’s permission are you asking for? It’s not permission it’s the self confidence to KNOW it’s absolutely ok to prioritise yourself. You deserve to be heard and happy as much as your partner. It’s not either persons responsibility to give it to the other. It is also perfectly ok to have given it a good go but for something to just not work and it be no ones fault. From what I’ve read I think you’ve given it one hell of a good go!

I think those who have not discovered they are ND till much later or deny it learn a lot of bad behaviours. I think if taught from a young age that people think differently and it’s absolutely ok it would help. It’s not ok to dismiss and call people manipulative. I think these things can be learnt if caught early or the person is willing. I think it’s ok to think some ND people just aren’t nice and opinionated like some NT people are. There are many ND people who are nice and understanding.

This thread has really helped me with ‘permission’ to have needs and to leave if I want to without guilt. At the same time as realising and accepting the limits of my DH’s capacity for certain things and developing a better mental model of his approach to the world. This has been especially helpful to think through the trauma and maladaptive strategies of late diagnosis that he has faced, and the baked in sexism of our culture about men and women’s’ roles.

@MySocksAreDotty my partners father is disgusting in his views. My partners brother is a bit of a pig and definitely in control of his wife, she is an anxious mess. In a way my partners ND has meant a lot of his indoctrination went over his head. He has his moments, I’m trying to teach him hmmmm!!!

I can’t be around his family as I just want to scream at them at the dysfunctional views. The mum has just become accustomed to it so she is a lost cause also.

My Dh has also said to me in the past that crying is manipulation. I find it SO frustrating when there is something "wrong" with me, whether that is sadness/depression/physical illness/ etc he brings it back to him how he is suffering just as much at any given moment, its infuriating, he is just having a bad day while I am on antidepressants, near the edge and physically ill, plus juggling facilitating our whole lives as he is so easily overwhelmed. when he is down or ill I look after him and care and listen but he doesn't seem to recognise that he doesn't do this back. it just makes me turn inwards and seek comfort in others.

@Fortheloveof83 I hear what you mean about late dx but there are many of us wives here who are also late dx and you can learn and change if you want to. sometimes my natural instinct is to do or say something that I realise appears selfish, but I can very much empathise with others and now take a moment to think how I come across, it is possible if you care about those around you and want to have good relationships and friendships etc, and when I fuck up I apologise and try to learn from that and make amends. some of these men seem to have given themselves a free pass to be arseholes.

I don’t think misogyny bypasses Neurodiverse men unfortunately. That’s a separate issue. I don’t think women experience ND the same as men. I don’t know if that’s correct. Also not all ND have the same issues. There often many things at play in making someone's personality likable or not. Lots of NT men are completely inflexible and think women are manipulative unfortunately. Men literally speak a different language without the ND I feel.

@Rainbow03 id say that with dh the sexist/misogynist views are even more obvious because he doesn’t conceal them iyswim.

But tbf too, he is also able to step up and share the load in other areas.

Eg his mum was very set that he would learn to do housework, cooking etc… and he is. Ok maybe not perfect but compare to some dh on this thread, he is excellent.
But he was also convinced I’d become a SAHM when dc1 was born because ‘that’s what women do’, his job always came before mine, grabbing boobs/arse etc…

My partner grabs boobs and that and I bloody hate it. He will ask for or try
to initiate intimacy even after I’ve expressed a sad or stressful situation I’m going through. He won’t realise why I wouldn’t want to do it when I’ve had a really hard day or I’m sad because say someone has died. It’s everyday also and it’s annoying. I often say to him is there never a time you feel something enough to not want to do it.

It seems odd, to me, to draw a hard and fast line between Narcissism and the behaviors you attribute to ASD. Narcissism is a set of characteristic responses to fear of shame and the collapse of self. Maybe you think ASD is hard wired and Narcissism is “soft wired” and happens after birth. That’s true for Narcissism as a cluster B diagnosis.

But if it walks and quacks, etc…? What is the effective difference to you between a man who can’t tolerate your needs and emotions because they are inconvenient/embarrassing/ overwhelming because he is hard wired and who is the same because he’s soft wired?

And the issue with the expressed misogyny feels to me like its unforgiveable. It is, in fact, his theory of mind. It is his theory of how the world works and its toxic. Its learned, of course, not hard wired. So he CAN learn an interpretive schema but the one he has will destroy you (women cry to manipulate me).

I just don’t think the intent or inborn capacity matters. The effect is what matters. You have to live your life within the penumbra of his limitations.

You have only one choice, as you have only one life.

@pikkumyy77 i don’t know but perhaps because being ND is a disability and being Narcissistic is not. There is a lot more sympathy for the disability.

Of course there is! And should be. But that doesn’t mean that you can afford to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

I think that Narcissism is seen as bad and evil and they are all monsters. It’s intentional etc etc. I don’t think people can understand the complexity of it. My narcissistic ex had some really good parts but the bad parts were just too damaging. It does need to be looked out by outcome and not intent. I don’t believe he intended any of what happened but he had a problem unfortunately. Labels can be helpful and also really unhelpful.

@pikkumyy77 you’ve given me great advice on another thread. Unfortunately that is exactly was some of us have been taught as children. Sacrifice ourselves to keep the peace. It’s unhealthy.

Yes to this, I posted about this last week when I nearly just packed up and left as was so fed up of the groping. Still leaving, but will do it in a less dramatic way, hopefully!

I am so embarrassed that I married a misogynist, I consider myself a feminist and can't honestly believe he hid this so well (masked?) when we met. Although my boundaries were so low back then and I had let men use me before him so maybe it is not so surprising. Like someone mentioned upthread, I also let my H live out his fantasies/fetishes (nothing extreme or dangerous), in some attempt to reconnect I guess, resulting in me feeling a bit cheap and used at times, more like an object or doll. So in his eyes maybe I am an object or someone who will lower her boundaries for his gratification.

Anyone noticed more ASD behaviours as DHs get older? Mine is 55 soon and I notice more and more each day.and I can't work out whether it is naturally part of the ageing process and maybe less energy to mask? Or I'm just becoming more aware of his behaviours, maybe due to my increased knowledge or spending more time with DH now DC are starting to fly the nest

It seems like it, H is 50 and I think it's a mix between getting older (maybe testosterone levels dropping too), more health issues creeping up, several family bereavements and several years of parenting a DD with complex needs. My DF, now 83, retired in his early 50's due to 'ill health' (crippling OCD, but actually probably ASD and ADHD too) and became more and more 'different', reclusive and rigid in his ways.

Perhaps behaviour gets worse as more trauma, more stress, more years of masking takes effect. Nowhere to really go when you aren’t able to connect so easily to others than inwards I suppose.

@LittleSwede +1 to the lower boundary and the fetish/fantasy thing - if you love me ..... etc
@Georgeismydog I wondered this before as it is a mix of becoming Victor Meldrew and the ASD entitlement in my view plus as I age my capacity to overlook the behaviour of 20 years has diminished.
@nl55 thanks for sharing your ex's threats. Mine has followed through and it's not pleasant! A full history rewrite.

In my case I believe the ASD is mixed with other behaviours/underlying personality issues/childhood and the behaviour is not due entirely to ASD. Counselling helped me see that whatever I did to appease the 'd'h was never going to be good enough and was making me ill. Another year, 2 years, 20 years with him, no. The counselling was supposed to help us communicate better!

In real life I’m a therapist. Its been my experience that people in toxic, inappropriate, or difficult relationships often come to therapy with a lot of hope that by understanding and accommodating their partner’s viewpoint, by changing their own behavior, they can bring about a happier relationship.

This is almost never the case. If the patient has a personality disorder or is delusional they can’t really change or grasp the healthier partner’s needs or desires.

If the patient is basically normally functioning intellectually, however traumatized or struggling with codependency or other issues, they have already nearly broken themselves serving the needs of their partner. They know what they need to do to keep the peace but they are reaching burn out and running out of the ability to sacrifice self for other.

Going to therapy to fix oneself and learn to “communicate better” is the first step to realizing that no amount of shrinking oneself can create a healthy relationship of equals.

Sometimes the therapy feels like it resolves itself into this:

Patient: If I do this, this, and this will my partner change?

Therapist: No.

I totally hear you @LittleSwede on the embarrasment of marrying a misogynist - sometimes he comes out with stuff and I just think 'how did i get here' WTF has happened.

@pikkumyy77 - yes, I don't know the difference, I don't know what is ND, what is sexism, what is being bought up in an entitled way where he could do no wrong, what is him being deeply insecure/in pain as he has struggled to make sense of so much. I don't know.

He was a big drinker when I met him and had friends. Now he doesn't drink, he's become much more anxious and inward looking - he will talk to me about the price of potatoes for 20 minutes and then lose his shit when I'm not fascinated.

@Georgeismydog i worry about this a lot. Even if I can tolerate things between us now, busy lives, I find comfort/friendship in other places - I'm out and about at work, with the kids - but as we get older and it's just me and him.

@Fortheloveof83 i was certainly taught my role in life was to please others and to never anger the men in your life (dad, brother, etc). i worry that by staying i'm passing on v unhealthy relationships to my DC, but by leaving I expose them even more to him. I imagine my DC sitting around with my H while he tells them the world is against him, women are bitches etc. He doesn't do that in front of them becuase i'm there - I'm his blocker somehow - he keeps some of his most angry viewpoints to himself and not letting it affect the kids because i am around - and keeping things light, happy, and i call him out on it - if i'm not there- fuck knows what my DC will listen to day & night.