How can I be happy that my friend is getting married?

[Worrieditsamistake]

NC for this because it involves my good friend and I wouldn't want it to be outing.

I have a very, very old friend. My best friend. She has had some really shitty relationships over the years. Never really had a healthy LTR (so no children) and also quite a lot of financial stress and uncertainty.

Several years ago she met a really, really lovely guy and they have a truly wonderful relationship. They are made for each other and I am so happy for her. They don't live together - he's got young adult/teen sons from a previous relationship (ended long before) and so he's staying local to them until the youngest is older. No possibility of children together due to age. All good.

Yesterday my friend called me. He proposed to her and she said yes. It wasn't at all what she was expecting but she is over the moon, they both are. My first reaction was to be absolutely thrilled for them.

But.

After years of struggling my friend has managed buy a small home for herself which she owns outright. She doesn't have much pension to speak of and isn't young enough or earning well enough to change that significantly. This house is her entire security and is SO important to her.

Her fiancé is a genuinely lovely guy (I am certain he is one of the good ones) but he is not a high earner at all and has absolutely NO assets whatsoever. I think the longer term plan is that he will move in with my friend in a few years once he feels able to move away from his son.

Neither of them are especially financially savvy (that's not really the right way of saying it but hopefully yuu know what I mean) and I don't think either of them will have considered the legal implications of marriage. I'm really concerned that my friend is going to be jeopardising her security. If he moves in, my understanding is that her house will become the marital home and that it would almost certainly become a marital asset. He earns less than she does, has even less savings, and also has dependants and so it's possible he would even be awarded more than a half share in the event of divorce.

Also my friend has several nieces/nephews that she is close to and she has mentioned in the past that her estate will pass to them. This obviously wouldn't happen if they marry, and her estate would ultimately pass to her partner's children (or even a future wife, if he remarried) rather than her own family if she were to die first. This isn't such an issue compared to the risk to her security, but I still don't think it's what she'd want.

The issue is I don't think either of them have considered any of this and I am really worried for my friend. In the cold light of day marriage is of absolutely ZERO benefit to my friend and had a big upside for her fiancé.

I'm certain he has no idea of this and his motivations are simply that he loves her and wants to spend his life with her. But years on mumsnet makes me see it quite differently and I'm even finding myself feeling angry with him for asking her to risk her security, which I know is unfair.

So to get to the point, I guess I have two questions/problems. The first is if I should gently probe my friend to see if she understands the legal implications of marriage. I've helped her a lot in the past with financial advice and so this wouldn't be as put of place as it might sound. So long as she is fully informed then I'm happy if she's happy.

The second problem is how to deal with my low level resentment at her fiancé. Its made me look at him a bit differently which I KNOW is unreasonable. But my friend has had so much shit to deal with over the years and FINALLY has security and he is (albeit unknowingly) asking her to give that up for him.

Sideways disinheritance? I get it but I don’t get it. One or both of them may need long term care. Given their asset class nothing will be left for the next generation—the nieces and nephews—at all.

How can you be so sure neither of them are aware of the financial implications? Are they of low intelligence or have some suspected additional needs?

You sound very kind and cautious in terms of not overstepping but I think you would be right to mention getting some advice re legalities on the house etc, perhaps approach from the stance of asking whether she's considered this first rather than offering suggestions off the bat.

Ignoring comments about being jealous, that always comes up on here, regardless of topic.

Key thing is pick your timing. Let her express her excitement about the wedding and engagement first interrupted by this. Unless they're planning a quick marriage then there's no hurry, just choose your moment and ask the question. She may well have thought of it already if her home carries so much significance to her and she's been through the process of purchasing.

In terms of resenting the bloke, just hang fire. You've said youraelf you don't seriously doubt his motives, your feelings are sparked by protectiveness for your friend rather than anything he has done. Try and put a pin In all of this until a good opportunity comes up to mention financial advice to her, and assume total good faith on his part so you can be happy for them. She may not be a financial whizz who has made billions but she's an adult who has managed, who has bought a home outright and found a partner she loves. She's doesn't sound a hopeless case. Try not to assume she is more vulnerable than she is.

I think its incredibly patronising to think she hasn't considered this

I agree, inheritance isn't the main issue, and she would of course want her future husband to inherit, or at least have a life interest in the house. I honestly don't think she will have though beyond that though, and that the consequence of this might be that her estate then passes sideways. She doesn't have any relationship with the sons (nothing ominous, they've just chosen to keep their lives separate) and I think she'd feel quite strongly that she would want any inheritance to stay in 'her' family.

Thank you, that's how I feel - that I owe it to her to make sure that she fully understands the legal implications of marriage so that she can make a informed decision, and take any legal advice and actions she might feel she needs.

So long as she is going into it understanding all the facts then my mind will be put at reast and I'll be able to be delighted for them both, whatever she decides.

I can see that I sound quite (over) involved. Perhaps I am a bit. In the past she has relied on me quite heavily for financial advice and as a general sounding board, which I've been happy to give. This includes supporting her through a legal 'event' (I don't want to say more) that ultimately put her in the position to be able to buy a small house. It was a very, very stressful couple of years' battle for her (understatement) so yes, I am concerned that she could be unwittingly jeopardising the security that she nearly didn't have.

Her family are lovely but hopeless at his kind of stuff and although she is very intelligent she would be the first to admit that financial and legal stuff isn't her forte.

That's really interesting. I think this is the sort of agreement she'd want. I know that, while not legally binding, prenups are generally thought to be fairly robust when it comes to ring fencing non marital assets, but I didn't think they could apply to the marital home. She definitely should take legal advice.

Op, I’m facing the same worries about my friend who is getting married to a man she has known just over a year and who also has red flags already. She owns two properties, he owns none. Both of them have children from previous relationships. He runs a business and while it clearly turns over a lot of money, she has no idea what it’s worth on paper and whether she would be entitled to any of it. I’ve spoken to her about it, she’s fully aware but seems to be burying her head in the sand. She doesn’t even know whether he’s got a pension. This will sound contentious but I really do wonder why people bother getting married late in life once children and assets are involved because it becomes so messy. Clearly I’m not much of a romantic!

Sorry - when I said ‘also has red flags’ I wasn’t referring to your friend’s dp having red flags too. At least he sounds lovely.

Really not any of your business here at all. It sounds like you consider your friend to be not a fully capable adult simply because she's had some relationship trouble and has asked you for some advice in the past.

I mean go and let her know your thoughts but be prepared to be told to butt out. I personally don't see how you could really do this in a way that would not be seen as casting aspersions on her future husband to be honest.

In terms of what happens after death, I suppose you could just generally mention the subject of drawing up a will.

As for the event of a divorce, bear in mind that in the UK any agreements or other arrangements may be considered but can be overridden if they jeopardise a fair outcome. Judges can and do order transfer of property from one spouse to another as part of the financial remedy regardless of who owned what to begin with. So think about what you would actually be advising her to do here and whether it would have any meaningful impact in the event of a divorce.

Sorry to hear about your friend, that does sound like it's got red flags all over it. Thankfully there aren't any red flags in my friend's situation, other than the general fact that even the happiest relationships can break down, and that people can behave in ways we never expected.

I really do wonder why people bother getting married late in life once children and assets are involved because it becomes so messy. Clearly I’m not much of a romantic!

This is absolutely my personal view, but I recognise that it is just that, my view, and that for other people the act of marriage may be really important to them. Like you, I just want to make sure my friend makes an informed choice.

@Worrieditsamistake he was happy to sign if as wanted to be with me b
Not gain my house

Think it was around £400/500 and this was 12yrs ago

But it's worth the cost to protect your friend

A co-habitation agreement looks like a very good idea in these circumstances.

Even if they don't marry and just live together in her house, after seven years he'll be able to claim half if they split up.

You may seem ott to some PPs, but as you advised her legally in being able to afford her house in the first place, your concerns are well placed.

I have a friend in a similar situation. I quite simply asked her what was going to happen with her house. She said they'd talked about it and it would remain hers, and if they moved then she would ring fence / protect the equity she'd put in from her house, and then if they moved again following input from him to their bills/life in it, at that point they'd go joint.

Just ask the question. "Hi friend, what's going to happen with your lovely little house?".

I can't for the life of me think if any possible way you could say this to her without risking causing great offence. In short you would be telling her that her partner (who she will likely value more highly than she does you) could be profiteering at her expence, and you think she's too daft to have thought it through. I get your concern, but I honestly can't see it could come across remotely positively to her.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable
and inheritance is really an issue as she could possibly leave him a lifetime interest in the property

Divorce is the one she should be worried about

so many people don’t think that marriage is an actual contract
even the “words I give to thee all my worldly goods “

( or words to that effect ) basically says what’s mine is now ours

A lot of people concentrate on the wedding which is often nothing more than an very expensive party than the actual marriage and what it actually means to be married

a lot people don’t understand the difference between death and divorce

Even on here people have said why will he get her assets her will can states that she gives it to family
well yes she can but he would stand a very god chance of overriding that in court as they are married
and this is death not divorce

She could do it where they own the property as tennants in common and then they can leave her half it to whoever they want
but generally there is a clause that allows the spouse a lifetime interest in the house
so the house is generally sold when the other person dies
my parents did this

my parents did similar
My mum died and her half went to the grandkids
my dad was able to live in the house as per my mums will & gave him a lifetime interest and her half

one thing I will mention is that if this is the case for you

if your mums half is in a trust ( which is normally the way it works when they do this
dont forget to fill out the trust and estates form with HMRC as otherwise you can end up with a huge bill

you get 2 years to do it from the death of the first person
I didn't realise this and could have got a huge fine for filling the return late

I honestly don’t think it should be a big deal to have this conversation with your friend. Telling her to rethink marriage or expressing resentment at her partner would be overstepping boundaries. However a factual conversation where you ask her open questions about how she sees things working out in the event of divorce and death is fine. It’s good to be able to talk these things through with friends.

This couple are merging their lives! They are pledging to care for each other in sickness and health! His children may well come to love and care for her. He may be the person whose loving care for her enables her to stay in the house when old age and debility would force her out. The house will be their home. I just can’t understand the fixation on the house as family inheritance if she predeceases him.

Honestly I wouldn't worry much in this case. If she had children or was young enough to do so it would be different, but I take it she is past that age?

I think people on Mumsnet tend to overestimate the rights afforded by marriage. If they divorce with no children after a late marriage, it would be taken into account what assets were brought into the marriage by each party. He definitely would not walk away with half.

As far as inheritance...if she is marrying this man then she will want to leave most of her estate to him. She can leave specific bequests to her nieces and nephews, and I'm sure they would not expect more than that if she has a husband living at the time of her death.

I think it's nice you are concerned about your friend, you have justified concerns and are seeing it logically from an outsiders point of view. Marriage isn't all about love, hearts and flowers. However I would tread very carefully as she may not want to hear your concerns and could take it as jealousy or interfering.

I agree with this.

they can do a pre nup which states her home is solely hers and will remain hers in the event of a split. Pre nups are upheld in the vast majority of cases. Wouldn’t cost much for her to do but gives her security and peace of mind. She can still leave it to him in her will, and if he’s a decent guy he’ll understand.

I don't think I've explained myself well about my feelings about the fiancé. I honestly think he is the best thing that has ever happened to her and my feelings about that haven't changed. It's more frustration, thinking "Argh, why didn't you think about what this means for my lovely friend!"

Erm… why aren’t you frustrated at your “lovely friend” for not thinking about it? Why is he the well-meaning buffoon who hasn’t even considered any of this and
is therefore the object of your frustration, but she gets a free pass and is the poor starry-eyed lovely but naïve one who has been put in some impossible, precarious position through no fault of her own? Why is HE the only one who should be thinking about the implications? Surely if anything, given that she’s the one with the asset, she should be thinking about it more than he is?

I get that you’re worried for your friend and that’s admirable. But if you’re going to be mad with him for proposing without considering the consequences, by rights you should be equally angry with her for accepting without doing the same.

Tell your friend that you’re going to update your will and then say “I suppose you’ll need to do that too, after the wedding, won’t you, if you still want to leave something to niece and nephew?” This will tell you whether she at least knows that a marriage will invalidate an existing will. She may already know and be considering provisions; she may have only been planning to leave everything to her niece and nephew when there was no obvious alternative. But if she didn’t know and does still want to leave them a legacy, she’s now better informed and you haven’t had to frame it in terms of “Are you sure about this marriage?”

Yes I would speak to my friend about it if it was me. It’s all well and good people romanticising and saying well she will want to leave her house to her husband anyway, as if all is going to be moonlight and roses. Around 50% of marriages end in divorce! So yes she should take steps to protect her assets and there’s nothing wrong with a really good friend raising the subject of the practicalities.