Not 'bad-mouthing' your ex to the children

[WinterDeWinter]

This is considered to be a universal rule for helping the children cope with a divorce.

But I'm really interested to know from people whose own parents divorced whether it really is the case that you should never say anything to the children which might appear to be critical of your former spouse.

Obviously it's very age-dependent - but i wonder whether sometimes if there is no sense of cause and effect, nothing makes sense to the children.

My own late childhood was spent desperately wishing my mother would protect us by leaving my domineering father.

I knew he was a shit, and if she had left him and then said 'mummy and daddy couldn't make it work, but he's a great guy' I would have lost even more faith in her. She would effectively have been gaslighting me.

I can see that if they truly were simply incompatible then that would be different. But Mumsnet shows us every day, I think, that many / most men do not put nearly as much in to family life as women do. When the relationship finally breaks down, is it really in the interest of the children - or ultimately likely to lead to social change, so that our own children don't repeat this pattern - to pretend that it wasn't the case?

Not interested in Not All Men Are Like That, at all - I have eyes 😂- but very interested in hearing from MNers whose parents divorced where one party was clearly more at fault than the other, and what their experience was.

I don't talk much about him, I don't know much about him other than the time he spends with our DD and genuinely I don't want to know, he left and I suppose he is happy, I am happier, so why he not? And if not, I don't bother much.
Keep it simple makes the things easy because I have nothing much to say about him.

It helps that the past is gone and he is now not trying to make my life difficult as he did at the beginning so he is not a nuisance any longer. When he was I just bite my tongue my DD is to young to know about her dad being an arse.

My situation is not bad given the fact that some people have to deal with really nasty entitled shitty ex's.

My parents are still together so no experience as a child. However, am currently going through a divorce. No abuse or anything, we reached a point where we just wanted very different things from life and couldn't make it work staying together. DD is 9 and that is the explanation she has been given. She loves her dad and is half him so I wouldn't ever say anything offensive about him to her and I can't regret the relationship completely as I wouldn't have her without it.

That said, ex has moved abroad and very quickly embarked on a series of new relationships. His efforts at maintaining contact and a proper relationship with DD since he moved have been very poor - he hardly calls her, visits even less, hasn't had her visit him, makes no real contribution to her birthday/Christmas etc. I have reached a point where I can't and won't try to explain or excuse this as DD has begun to notice. So whilst I still won't bad mouth him as such I'm not going to twist myself up to defend poor behaviour. All I can do is reassure DD that she is loved and his behaviour is not a reflection on her

It's separating how they were with the children to how they were with you. Best to let the children make their own minds up, things are rarely black and white.

I was very very lucky, even though my parents separation and divorce was far from amicable (until they got on like a house on fire years later!) they never ever slagged each other off to me.
As it turns out, I had always been lead to believe my dad was at fault. (Not from mum, but my narcissistic bitch maternal grandmother. She constantly brought things up and had a dig at every opportunity, 9/10 times out of earshot of my mum!)
It was only around 10 years or so ago, that I actually found the proof that it wasn't my dad at all.
I have always found it upsetting that parents will do that. I've seen friends and their exes do it, all it is is bad parenting by using children as weapons.

My ex was emotionally and physically abusive and my eldest DS saw enough to understand why I ended the marriage. Kids were 4.5 and just 8 when we split, now nearly 6 and 9.5

Ex H is a shit dad and has the kids every other weekend. Doesn’t do any parenting, won’t buy clothes for the kids, didn’t turn up to DD’s first day of school, has to be chased every month for child support.

I try VERY hard not to slag him off (he has the kids this weekend and surprise surprise the Easter Bunny didn’t come - despite me sending eggs along because I knew he wouldn’t buy any - God I hate him).

I tell my kids he prioritises work too much and that’s a him problem not a them problem (he is always claiming to be sooo busy and can’t come to sports games etc) - I don’t want them to feel less than bc their idiot father uses work to avoid his parenting responsibilities.

I’ve also told them that in life there are good lessons and there are hard lessons. If your mum and dad were very happy and loving together you might learn a good lesson about what marriage should be like. Unfortunately in our case my DC learnt a hard lesson about what marriage shouldn’t be like. I said there is never any excuse for someone being mean or unkind or calling names and if that ever happens to them in a relationship, or if they ever feel scared, they must always know that they can call me and I will come and get them immediately. I never had that and it would have saved me 10 years with exH (though I wouldn’t have had DC so I have to say I’m glad I stayed).

In some situations you have to work bloody hard to make sure your child knows they are not 50% you or 50% them. They are 100% their own person.

I can only imagine how much worse my life had been if I’d been led to believe I was 50% the non maternal drug addict who sacrificed her kids to protect herself and 50% the violent addict who felt that burning his child with an iron was a proportional punishment for breaking a cup.

Thankfully my Nana installed that were 100% our own person

This is exactly the kind of damage that I was talking about.

My 12 year old DS's dad hasn't seen him, sent birthday cards or gifts, or made any commitment to him, for several years. On the rare occasion that he comes into conversation I quite openly tell DS that the man is a shit house, that he deserved better from a father, and that he is ten times the man already that his father is.

When he was a bit younger, the narrative was 'some people aren't good at being mums or dads but you have me, and I can do everything that a dad can do'.

Just to be clear, I put 'bad-mouthing' in inverted commas because some people interpret anything that isn't actively supportive or absolutely neutral as 'slagging off' the ex.

So I'm talking about age-appropriate facts about the ex's actions, behaviours, tendencies. Obviously 'your bloody father, he's such a shit' is not ok!

Edit: although having just seen @newyearnewknees post about a son who has been constantly let down, maybe that IS what they sometimes need to hear...

@WinterDeWinter DS saw exH screaming, smashing things, being physically agressive. He didn’t see the worst of the physical abuse which was assault.

I can’t stay neutral on that. I obviously don’t say “your dad was an abusive shit who hit me” but I do say things like “it’s not okay to feel scared in your own home, I will not tolerate that behaviour from dad or anyone else - home should be a safe place and our house is a calm and peaceful home now”.

I am comfortable that that acknowledges the reality of our marriage and split without hopefully making the kids feel too conflicted about their dad. I have very occasionally got frustrated when they have been squabbling over treats/entertainment etc and said things like “look kids, I’m doing it all, you don’t see your father contributing do you?” and I always feel ashamed of myself, I don’t like making his deficiencies their problem.

@CatCatCatCatCatCat Me and my siblings experienced similar. I think a day scarcely went by when my mother wasn't calling my dad names (when she talked about him to us) and bad mouthing him. It carried on even when we were adults. She was very bitter - it blighted her life - and I was never able to have a grown up conversation with her about what happened between her & my dad.

Both of my siblings and myself have had life long mental health issues that we are sure can be traced back to those times. My mum was very fond of saying things to us along the lines of , "I'll send you to your father, see if him and his whore want you, you'll soon be crying to come home" if we stepped even slightly out of line. I think as a teenager I was scared to express even the mildest opinion in case I was packed off. I realise now in my sixties that would never have happened but when you're a youngster you have no idea. I'm not surprised I have people pleasing/attachment issues with anxiety.

@susansaucepan I agree absolutely with what you wrote - my brother has found it upsetting because my mother would often tell him "you take after your father", whenever my brother did something she didn't like. Its very difficult for a young person to be constantly told how bad a person is and then to be told they are like that person.

My mum spent my childhood slagging off my dad and everything he did wrong (they’re still together!) Even now she will try to give me the run down on the latest issue she has with him. He has behaved very badly at times.

As an adult we have a very surface level relationship. I actually don’t ever tell her anything private or discuss my relationship with her as invariably I get some example involving Dad. It puts me on edge, it really makes me feel uncomfortable and I absolutely hate it.

I have however married the polar opposite of my dad, as has my sister, but there’s clearly a fine line between using it to make yourself feel better and helping your daughters avoid the same pitfall.

I told my DC enough about their dad so that 1. They didn't think his behaviour was normal. 2. They had enough information to understand what he was doing (very manipulative) so they could protect themselves against him and 3. That they didn't blame me. I kept it factual and, I hope, useful.
The 3rd point was important to me as I always blamed my mum growing up as she'd left my dad.
With hindsight my dad is an abusive twat but I didn't realise until much later and I think if I had known sooner I wouldn't have got into so many relationships with abusive twats myself.
Saying that, my parents sometimes slagged each other off which was hugely uncomfortable for me. Mostly it was innuendo and wasn't helpful in any way, it just made me hate them more.

My ex repeatedly belittles me and my new partner to my children (18,20,24). I have never said anything bad about her, I always ask after her and her new partner and wish them every happiness.
My partner always asks me why I don’t defend myself to all her nasty comments but I don’t want to lower myself to that level.
my children are older now and I’ll let them work things out for themselves what kind of people we are.

My parents slagged each other off something awful when they split and I fucking hated it. My dad's family used to slag my mam off to me when I used to visit so I stopped visiting as I couldn't bear it. My mam took it really bad(my dad cheated and then left her for the ow) and drank a lot in them days and would get nasty, it really affected me and my older brother took the brunt of it. Both of us always said if we had children and similar happened we would never do the same in front of children.
That was when was 11, in 36 and strangely everyone gets on great. My parents give each other bday cards and my mam gets my step siblings presents etc. it's nice now but it was horrible back then. But then I think that generation got married and had children young so probably still immature in a sense? They would have been my age when this all occurred.

I put 'bad-mouthing' in inverted commas because some people interpret anything that isn't actively supportive or absolutely neutral as 'slagging off' the ex.
But your question was:
But I'm really interested to know from people whose own parents divorced whether it really is the case that you should never say anything to the children which might appear to be critical of your former spouse.
Which makes it sound as if you, too, are talking about anything that isn't actively supportive, or neutral.

But from further comments it seems you already have a fully formed opinion and think that it's OK to discuss your ex's behaviour critically, as long as it's age-appropriate etc. Or maybe not just OK, but actively a better idea than trying to be neutral? Maybe start a thread on that instead? Might be more interesting.

Of course it all depends what you mean by bad mouthing. I don't lie, some information isn't appropriate, some is irrelevant. Watching a mid teen being needy, with poor boundaries, expecting her friends to pick her up and put her down again is an eye opener. Seeing her hate that she isn't enough to stop his drinking, that he never, ever puts her first - that's enough to be somewhat truthful. Anything else would be cruel.

I followed this rule until the point where it would have been gaslighting to say anything but “yes, that it emotional abuse and I understand and believe you because he said and did the same things to me”.

No idea what you are on about - that is the thread I started? Wanted to hear whether others' experience chimed with my (current) thinking that sometimes it could be better to be honest, even if that meant being critical.

I added the clarification because some people were responding as if I'd said 'it's okay to slag your ex off, call them names etc' which wasn't what I originally intended.

You seem quite a cross one.

Can anyone say though?

if you were the child how do you know whether your parent’s bad mouthing is bitterness, misremembering, or truth?

dh’s ex has told his children the split was because of our affair. It absolutely was not, she was already living with her OM when I met him.

I do actually think she believes this though. I think over the years the timelines have blurred in her head and she’s convinced herself she didn’t sleep with her OM till after we met.

she’s done it in an “I’ll let them know when they’re old enough” way, so they only found out in their teens. They now refuse to speak to their dad.

they were also told over the years that the reason they didn’t have x, y and z was because mum had no money, and to ask dad because he and I were rich. We weren’t, we were on a much lower income than her and OM, especially taking maintenance into account, but dh would always agree to pay immediately, she’d take the money and they’d still not get it. So they think their dad refused to contribute financially and stopped them getting violin lessons or whatever.

so those kids think they’ve “realised what dad is like” as they’ve grown up. But it’s not based in truth, even if there was no malicious intent.

people have their own versions of the truth and I think it’s wrong to drag children into it.

You have articulated something I have been grasping at for a number of months OP. I'm currently going through a separation and gearing up to tell my DC and this thought has crossed my mind repeatedly.

My own parents divorced but not until I was 18 and even then my mother was firmly of the view that she shouldn't bad mouth my father to her DC. However, 20 years on she rigidly sticks to this even though I find it wildly frustrating as it means we can never really discuss the reality of our childhood with her and it also means she refuses to process the fact that she was in a domestic violence relationship. My siblings and I are all no contact with him and since having DC we have found it cathartic to discuss him and our upbringing frankly among ourselves.

However, I found myself in a marriage that, although not physically violent, had elements of control, emotional manipulation and ultimately sexual coercion. And I do wonder if my mother had discussed these things openly with me in relation to my father, would I have avoided falling into a similar trap that she did? We KNEW he was awful and used to tell her to leave towards the end, so it was negligent in a way not to validate that and to pretend that he was a-okay.

My own children are much younger so I have to tread carefully but they already have a feeling for what their dad is like, and complain about him to me sometimes. I know my very bright, inquisitive eight year old won't be happy an explanation of "oh we couldn't make it work but daddy is great and loves you" etc. she will want to know why we couldn't make it work and I don't know how I could possibly answer that without "badmouthing" him.

Sorry for the rant OP! I shall follow along and see how others propose to strike this balance.

My mum slagged my father off constantly but then was more than happy to force me on him every weekend.. which never made any sense to me.
She would tell me he's a cross dresser, that he didn't like me; that he tried putting me up for adoption etc and that she was the only on who wanted me.

Needless to say as I've gotten older I've realised she's potentially severely bipolar (undiagnosed) which quite frankly made my life a living fucking hell as she loves dramatics and kicking off with people (always getting into scraps with the neighbours which also made for a shit upbringing).

Neither me nor my father were very interested in having a relationship with one another.
My parents split when I was very young and they had me very young too (late teens).

So yes, my mum did slag my dad off and to be honest I know think she was and is the fucking problem.

Keep it factual and without showing any emotion. Be like Switzerland. Let the kids figure it out for themselves. Don't discuss who's fault it was that their parents split up.

So many kids grow up listening to a negative narrative of the non resident parent, and it undermines any chance of them maintaining a healthy relationship with that parent. In adulthood that usually ends up going one of two ways - either no contact or the child ends up resenting the other parent for alienating the nrp.

I'm not sure Switzerland tolerating the Nazis and banking all the gold they stole from Jewish people is quite the paragon of neutral virtue you seem to believe.

You seem quite a cross one.
I think you must have read my post to yourself in a cross voice! You could have simply explained that I'd misunderstood.