Not 'bad-mouthing' your ex to the children

[WinterDeWinter]

This is considered to be a universal rule for helping the children cope with a divorce.

But I'm really interested to know from people whose own parents divorced whether it really is the case that you should never say anything to the children which might appear to be critical of your former spouse.

Obviously it's very age-dependent - but i wonder whether sometimes if there is no sense of cause and effect, nothing makes sense to the children.

My own late childhood was spent desperately wishing my mother would protect us by leaving my domineering father.

I knew he was a shit, and if she had left him and then said 'mummy and daddy couldn't make it work, but he's a great guy' I would have lost even more faith in her. She would effectively have been gaslighting me.

I can see that if they truly were simply incompatible then that would be different. But Mumsnet shows us every day, I think, that many / most men do not put nearly as much in to family life as women do. When the relationship finally breaks down, is it really in the interest of the children - or ultimately likely to lead to social change, so that our own children don't repeat this pattern - to pretend that it wasn't the case?

Not interested in Not All Men Are Like That, at all - I have eyes 😂- but very interested in hearing from MNers whose parents divorced where one party was clearly more at fault than the other, and what their experience was.

There's a difference between bad mouthing and sharing age appropriate facts.

My friend's ex was emotionally and financially abusive and was very nasty in the divorce. He has also tried to alienate the kids from their mum. The kids don't need to know most of it but they do need to know that dad has a different view on what they split and because he is upset about it he sometimes says things that aren't true.

They're encouraged to be honest, share any worries and not keep secrets.

At home with mum they only have surprises and not secrets because dad will ask them to lie.

When they get older, she'll add more detail if needed. She's very careful to keep emotion and her own feelings out of it.

I knew he was a shit, and if she had left him and then said 'mummy and daddy couldn't make it work, but he's a great guy' I would have lost even more faith in her. She would effectively have been gaslighting me.

Not bad mouthing the other parent doesn’t equal praising them / lying / gaslighting your children though. Your mum could have just said ‘mummy and daddy couldn’t make it work’ and left it there as per your example.

There's a balance here. I'm not the child, I'm the mum. My ex was and is a manipulative, abusive cheat. He is not a nice man, and that hasn't changed because we split or because he is a father. I spent a lot of years maintaining my DDs image of him and their relationship until I realised she was blaming herself when he let her down, tried to manipulate her, did things which sorely affected her self esteem.

She's still a teen but I see in her friendships the effect he has had on her. Now I tell her the limited truth, which is that his behaviour has NOTHING to do with her. It is his personality. He loves her but he is incapable of putting anyone else first and it is okay to ignore the manipulation and see through the lies. Now that she knows these things, she isn't desperate to please him, doesn't panic or try to parent him.

Maybe it would help more if people thought very long about having a child with someone first not every single person is a saint before they have children and change overnight the second a child is born

When my ex was being awful I reassured my DS that “he finds it difficult to be a good dad”. When he fucked off for good I told my son “it’s nothing to do with you, you’re brilliant, he just doesn’t know how to be a good dad and has made some bad choices”.

I wasn’t going to make excuses for him or let my child believe he deserved that treatment.

I don't badmouth my exH to the children. But equally I don't say "he's a great guy" either. They were very young when we split, so too young. Now, they're not stupid, they see, hear, and realise. The things I say are more along the lines of "well, people are all different, not everyone likes the same sort of things " etc. Or, somethings, "I don't agree, but that's one of the reasons we aren't together"

I haven't read all of the replies but the situation can be a little bit more nuanced than just requiring a blanket ''never slag off ex''

i recognised that i had been vulnerable to an abusive relationship because of my parents' parenting of me. So it was important to say to my daughter before she met with her father ''check into how you feel when you're with him. Supported?? Undermined? Pressured to be small?''

Now as an adult, her impressions of him are well and truly formed. They're her business, but of course, I'm blamed. The price I pay for my poor judgement

My parents divorced when I was a teen. My mum had an affair. My Dad never ever bad mouthed her, even though he had plenty of reasons too! (She had many affairs throughout the marriage).

My mum bitched and moaned about my Dad. And then wanted to 'be friends' and go out for dinner together. Madness.

I split from DDs dad when she was 3. I have never bad mouthed him to her. But as a teen she has eyes in her head and has figured a lot of it out for herself. When she complains to me about him I just say 'you know what he's like' and leave it there.

I don't say mine is a great guy or try to build him up unnecessarily. I say he's a good dad and he loves his children (which is the truth). The facts are confidential. Kids can see the truth and my boys are starting to. My ex has massive anxiety issues that make it difficult for him to have a relationship.

@RinklyRomaine and @WandaWonder making points next to each make me realise, you have to take it back to our parents then, when does the responsibility start ? Should I have understood at 18 that I needed therapy? I did need therapy, but it was years before I understood that and had therapy. My children were here by then.

With regard to never saying anything negative about the x, that can perpetuate the dysfunction. As Rinkly saw in her daughter, the children can blame themselves for what is a deficit in the parent because the mother was tripping herself up to ''never'' say anything negative.

A woman I know went down that path, finding positive things to say about a very intelligent, successful, outgoing man who had zero interest in responsibility or real parenting. Eventually her daughter asked why he had no interest in his own daughter. The mother said something like, oh he's a bit of a hedonist. but the daughter was smart and asked something like, but even if he's selfish, even if he's a hedonist, why am I not the person that he wants to enjoy putting first. It made no sense to her. Dots weren't joining up.

So I'd advise mothers to very young children in this situation not to bend over backwards in a misguided determination to ''never'' say anything negative.

I didn't. They are older teems now. When he started to display the same behaviour with them, manipulative, controlling, gaslightung, aggression. I couldn't just minimise it by saying that was OK. I've always been clear he's their dad and loves them but I support them to understand the way they feel about his behaviour towards them is OK and his behaviour isn't ok

My mum's father left when she was 4 years old. Literally never came back, though the family heard that he had another family elsewhere. She and her brothers never saw him again.
My grandmother never criticised him and actually spoke of him like a saint. She was always a 'man's woman' but maybe this was a coping strategy for her, I don't know.
Whatever her reasons, it was just as damaging to my mother and her brothers as slagging him off would have been. Perhaps even more so, as it's really not normal behaviour and undermined the pain they were going through.

I agree with many posts on here that there is a difference between honesty and bad mouthing.

Of course the child doesn't need all the details, the vitriol etc. But too often I see women twisting themselves into pretzels trying to maintain relationships and make their children believe their dads are good people when they very blatantly are not.

So slagging him off when he had an affair but otherwise is a good dad is very different to a man who refuses to see his children, doesn't contribute financially etc. Kids are not stupid- they can see that dad has a fancy lifestyle and doesn't make the effort.

My Grandparents, Nana mostly, were very honest with us, but in a way that didn’t seem like they slated my parents.

Obviously age appropriateness plays a huge part in it, but the children’s personalities also do. I was a child who felt like everything was my fault so questions often ended with “and he’s an adult, you are a child therefore it’s absolutely not your fault”.

I think there is a difference between not badmouthing and actively stating that their other parent is wonderful.

Most children will continue to love their parents no matter how shit they are in the home. They can be shit partners but alright parents. I think you can tell children about breakups without making out that their other parent is completely shit.

There are child friendly ways of speaking to children about why relationships end or discussing unacceptable behaviour of the other parent. I mean, if there was DV in the relationship it is very likely the child will have been aware of this so you wouldn't be informing the child of anything new but can say that other parent was hurting me and that's not OK.

I also regret that I didn’t agree with my DDs that their dad is a dick sooner. One really struggled with the fact that everyone liked their dad, even seemingly me, and she didn’t.

I thought being diplomatic was the right thing, but actually she was much happier when she said “but he’s horrible” and I finally said “yes, he is”

The answer lies in how you want your ex to talk to the kids about you. If you don't want him to slag you off to your children, then you don't slag him off

And of course children are 50% the other partner. It's unnerving for them to be told that they're 50% a horrible person (that they love)

My DCs have an age gap. When ex and I split the eldest was a teen. I never badmouthed his father but he bombarded the eldest with all sorts. I wish I had provided some balance. The eldest was abusive towards me and went to live with his father when I kicked him out for smashing my front door. He now hates me and is non contact. I really, really wish I had spoken up

Ex was trying the same with youngest but has been absent, on and off, for large chunks of her life. I told her that's not right and she can and should pull me up if I do the same. I'm now beginning to rethink the strategy and, for the first time, when he hadn't seen her for 3 months (and counting) I told her that I was angry with him because he's made a bad choice and his behaviour is mean. This latest estrangement was due to something his stepson did to her that she told me about and I have to constantly reassure her this isn't her fault. She suffers from anxiety, which my ex ignores (calls her a drama queen and that it's all my fault she's like this) so needs constant reassurance.

My ex is a closet monster. One of those people who everyone thinks is charming and the life and soul of the party. Heart of gold and would do anything for anyone. Behind closed doors he did things to me that will live with me forever. Never physically violent but he tortured me in other ways.

I left with our dc. He did see them and my gosh I had to bite my lip so hard for years and years. I never badmouthed him to our dc although he did do it to them about me. I thought I was doing the right thing. Maybe I did as I don't know the damage I could have done by telling them the truth.

Now they are adult with their own children and he's flitted in and out of their lives. Put girlfriends and then his wife first and treated our dc appallingly at times. But he's now divorced and lonely so the last couple of years he's suddenly wanting to spend lots of time with them, paying for holidays together, organising date out etc. and I'm feeling pushed out. Because I really do not want to be around him and he's suddenly there at every event with his smarmy fucking grin and his inappropriate comments.

I still keep quiet. I was hoping that they would see him for what he really is. Especially when his divorce happened and the rumours around why it ended. Or the things he does and says to women. But they seem blind to it. Just desperate to maintain a relationship with him.

It's so hard.

I'm related to someone where both families haven't held back on how they feel. She describes herself as half dickhead (I'm related to dickhead), half parasite/tapeworm and has had poor relationships all her life though accepted by both families. No one wants to feel half monster.

What an awful thing to say to a teenager who has done nothing wrong .

What is the evidence that cheating is genetically inherited? If you honestly believe that to be the case that would suggest your ex couldn't help cheating on you , it was his genes ?

I think you owe your poor DS an apology tbh .

I think more than anything kids need honesty. Apart from anything else, kids have a radar for fakery of any kind, and if you don't fill in the gaps, they will. Also, if you preclude honest conversations, then your children can't come to you with issues they have with their father as they know you won't engage.

This is really nasty. Please apologize to your ds.

Cheating is not a genetic issue.

I'm horrified you think saying this is ok.

He's 18 and has his first girlfriend and you say that???

Children have eyes and the older they get the wider their eyes are open. My elder son was 17 when I divorced exh. He had cheated on me and lied about where he was saying he was taking elder son somewhere. Elder son found out and was fuming he'd been used. Elder son had a huge argument with his Dad and hasn't spoke to him since (19) years. His sister found out at the time what he had done even though she was away at ini. Now she keeps her distance from him now. She sees her Dad once a year for a couple of hours. Younger son has kept in touch with his Dad though. I never mention him. I know when our elder son gets married he won't invite his Dad. Exh has lost out on having a relationship with his 2 DGS's. When my DD brings DGS's to me they run up and hug me and my DH. Younger son said GC don't hug their grandad.

There is a difference between 'not bad-mouthing' and 'always praising'.

You can say a lot too by not commenting.