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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

For those of you with male friends

90 replies

Strangerthings666 · 15/03/2024 09:02

How would you act if you had a male friend who you spent a lot of time calling and texting, and they then told you their wife had found out and was upset by it all as she knew nothing about it at this point? The friendship wasn't inappropriate, but did involve a bit of emotional support and sharing of some private things.
From the wife's pov, she feels it was kept a secret from her and doesn't understand if it was just a good friendship why she was kept in the dark.
Would you feel guilty? Would you reach out to the wife to reassure them that there was nothing to it? Would you continue the friendship? Maybe tone it down? Or would you just cut ties with the man, loose the friendship and forget it?

OP posts:
LivingDeadGirlUK · 15/03/2024 13:43

I would back off a bit tbh, I wouldn't expect to be kept a secret and would wonder why. Either he's got dodgy motives or his gf is controlling, either way I don't want to be in that.

Dery · 15/03/2024 13:59

“I would back off personally. And in my experience that kind of intense emotionally enmeshed relationship with lots of calls and texts is dodgy when there are other partners in the picture. Why is he seeking that level of support from you and not his wife?”

This.

TedMullins · 15/03/2024 14:09

gannett · 15/03/2024 13:25

Because sometimes the best person to support you is someone who's been through something themselves.

I talk a lot to a male friend about parental estrangement and all the feelings around it. We're both NC with our families; his wife is lovely but as someone raised in a functional home she doesn't really get it in the same way I do (and also a few of our other friends).

I also talked a lot to male (and female) friends who were not DP when I was having a career crisis several years ago, because they were in the same industry (not direct colleagues) and knew exactly why certain things were causing me so much grief. DP tried his best but ultimately had no idea what I was specifically talking about.

Obviously none of this was kept a secret from anyone.

Friendships that are what you call "emotionally enmeshed" and involve lots of communication are just normal friendships to me, and no one bats an eye when it's between two women or two men.

Agree with this - sharing personal and private info and having an emotional connection is all part and parcel of a good friendship.

In OP’s situation I’d be baffled he felt the need to keep it a secret and disappointed/think less of him for it, because it suggests he thinks there’s something clandestine and inappropriate about opposite sex friendships and that’s such a tedious sexist attitude. I wouldn’t feel
guilty though if it was all platonic on my side. I’d probably tell him I found it weird he’d kept me a secret and dial down contact, I wouldn’t speak to his wife.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 14:10

"I have 5 female friends who I am quite close to, and I don't do this with them! We just meet for coffee or a pub lunch every month or so, and meet at social groups."

You're not very close to your friends if you only meet up once a month!
Plenty of friends see each other every day. For me, it's only about once a week, but I wouldn't consider once a month close at all.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 14:12

"I'm pretty sure that most married men would not tolerate their wife having a cosy little 'friendship' with another man, going on 'early morning dog walks' with him and being a shoulder to cry on for him, and spending time together - just the two of them, socialising together and being alone together. (And constantly messaging each other - because this always happens when a married man has a female 'friend.' 🙄)"

I think quite a few of them would actually if they were clear they were just friends. Men don't seem to be as triggered by emotional closeness that is not sexual. There have been people on this thread who've said their partners are happy with them having male friends.

Namechangedforcrazystory · 15/03/2024 14:23

I have been in this situation and would now answer that I would completely end the friendship.

I spoke with him regularly as I also did all of my other (make and female) friends, although he was probably in my top 3 closest friends. I knew his wife didn't particularly like me although she didn't really particularly like anyone so I didn't pay it much attention.

Most of our messages were causal but we knew each other for 8 years and knew about each others families, big life events etc (as did our other friends to be clear) and would offer each other emotional support too.

My own DH was very aware of the level of our friendship, the content of messages etc and had no issue with it.

Near the end I did sort of get the vibe that my friends wife was unhappy but I just wrote it off - she was controlling, it wasn't my problem, I wasn't doing anything wrong and stopping talking to him would make me seem guilty. All I'm doing is chatting to my friend and their relationship stuff is nothing to do with me. It's not my choice to make for him. He can deal with it himself.

Evidently, once unable to get her husband to stop being friends with me she decided to bring out the big guns.

She went through four years of our chats on his phone and cut and pasted together (out of context) loads of different messages that she thought proved our friendship inappropriate.

Examples of this included him telling me he was thinking of and "sending me love" when I found out it was likely I couldn't have children. And me telling him he's a great friend to me and that I'm here for him any time he needs to chat with a love heart when he had a cancer scare. These messages are the kinds of messages both of us sent to our same-sex friends too at times.

There seems to be this general vibe that opposite sex friendships are only ok if there's absolutely no emotional closeness at all but in which case I'd say they're not really friendships. People tell even acquaintances things when they talk, never mind their actual friends. I can't imagine regularly spending time with someone for almost a decade and never sharing anything personal or bonding over a shared history or similar things happening in life.

There was one instance he complained about his wife to me and I stuck up for her and shut him down.

Anyway back to the story. His wife made a collage (yes a digital COLLAGE) of all these "inappropriate messages" over the years stuck together out of context to imply that we were having a constant back and forth love-in. They were stripped of all context and embarrassing and private messages were included in there. They were sent to everyone we knew.

I was humiliated. To give an example, I admitted to him at one point that I'd gotten really drunk after I'd had a really bad day and called in sick for work the next day as I was so hungover. I was almost never off sick so while I did feel guilty, it wasn't exactly any more of a crime than people who pull the odd sicky. I never did it again. She sent this to my boss.

After that our mutual friends all got to have a good nosey and decide whose side they were on and got to read all the juicy stuff while we (I mostly) tried to explain.

Unfortunately the friends wife was the one to come off most favourably and most people sympathised with her. Many wanted to "not choose sides" but it became really messy like we were having to share custody of this group of adults. And pretty much all of them made it clear they agreed with her and understood why she was unhappy. Several said they didn't think we were in any way having an affair or anything but that her feelings were understandable and so in turn her actions were too.

You could have made similar out of context collages of all of my friends chats which would have looked exactly the same but there you go. It never comes across the same with M/F friendships which is why it's impossible to really have a genuine friendship with the opposite sex as it's simply not socially acceptable to speak in the same way you would your female friends.

Unfortunately by taking her side they really took his and her side as they stayed together and I was the "other woman" who I guess had spent the last almost decade playing a very long and very badly executed seduction game. I assume he was simply the poor naive innocent man who was seduced.

So no. I wouldn't fancy that again. And while I think what she did was insane I also kind of blame him. He kept dismissing her feelings repeatedly. He wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted to stay with his wife and ignore her displeasure at our friendship.

I wrote her off as controlling but that was his problem to deal with and he should have. He could have left if he didn't like being in a controlling relationship. Or if he didn't want to leave, he could have stopped the friendship.

Looking back it's likely he did confide in me (and his other friends) more than he did her and it's likely he did have more in common and more similar interests with me (and his other friends) than with her. It was an odd relationship and an odd match and they never seemed to enjoy being around each other.

I just wish instead of putting all that blame on her I'd have stopped to actually judge him for the relationship he continually chose to be in. And made clear to him that I'm not continuing being friends in any capacity unless his wife is ok with it.

I wouldn't do that again.

CaterhamReconstituted · 15/03/2024 14:25

It’s the wife’s problem, not yours or your friend’s. Say nothing. He can do the explaining to her.

RosePombear · 15/03/2024 14:27

I’d find it really odd if my male friends kept me or our conversations secret from their partner. If the relationship is friendly and innocent there’s no need to keep anything secret, it would make me question his intentions with our friendship.

pinkyredrose · 15/03/2024 14:28

Kwasi · 15/03/2024 10:48

I have close male friendships and a very jealous husband. For this reason, I don’t mention my male friends. I message them all the time but just keep it quiet. There’s nothing untoward whatsoever but I don’t want to deal with the jealousy.

Why are you still married to him?

Strangerthings666 · 15/03/2024 14:43

So for context, met through work last year (they have been together for 10 years I think). We've never actually met in person, but our job involved us speaking a lot online and on the phone and we both have a lot of free time at work so it went from there. We have interests etc in common. It really was just fun talks and banter. And yes we both had issues in our lives that would come up and we would discuss. But it was never sexual etc.
My partner knew we speak but we don't live together so don't spend that much time together and he didn't know how much we spoke.
It was sporadic. Sometimes wed not speak for a while, other weeks wed speak most days. It just depended. Same with messaging.
I also don't think his wife is controlling. He never mentioned that, and even when he told me she knew and was upset about it, he never said anything about her being controlling.
I guess I'm just trying to process the situation. At the time it didn't even cross my mind that we were doing anything wrong. And I guess I'm just concerned how the wife feels knowing that she's just discovered something that she could interpret the wrong way (obviously his fault for not telling her).

OP posts:
Livelifelaughter · 15/03/2024 14:54

OP, it's not really a friendship if you haven't met.... and more to the point you haven't met his wife either.

altmember · 15/03/2024 14:56

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 14:12

"I'm pretty sure that most married men would not tolerate their wife having a cosy little 'friendship' with another man, going on 'early morning dog walks' with him and being a shoulder to cry on for him, and spending time together - just the two of them, socialising together and being alone together. (And constantly messaging each other - because this always happens when a married man has a female 'friend.' 🙄)"

I think quite a few of them would actually if they were clear they were just friends. Men don't seem to be as triggered by emotional closeness that is not sexual. There have been people on this thread who've said their partners are happy with them having male friends.

There's a big difference between a regular friend and being bestest friends. If you're sending and receiving dozens of messages a day, meeting every morning (albeit while exercising a pet), and discussing personal aspects of your marriage, then that is way beyond your average friend relationship. Is it more/closer than your friendships with people of the same sex as you generally are?

Only person I message every single day is my partner. Friends can have radio silence for days, weeks, even months in some cases, but then when we do chat there is a burst of messages making a conversation. But if I messaged any of my friends small talk every single day, they'd all get a bit pissed off with hearing from me!

When you're investing substantial time and energy outside of your relationship, possibly to it's detriment, it's not really surprising that a partner might start to feel jealous. How is it different to an emotional affair?

garlictwist · 15/03/2024 15:03

I'd find it really weird. I have a couple of very good male friends. Both of them are in relationships. I've met their partners loads even though I just hang out and text the men as I was friends with them first. I'd find it really weird if it was a secret and a red flag.

gannett · 15/03/2024 15:07

Strangerthings666 · 15/03/2024 14:43

So for context, met through work last year (they have been together for 10 years I think). We've never actually met in person, but our job involved us speaking a lot online and on the phone and we both have a lot of free time at work so it went from there. We have interests etc in common. It really was just fun talks and banter. And yes we both had issues in our lives that would come up and we would discuss. But it was never sexual etc.
My partner knew we speak but we don't live together so don't spend that much time together and he didn't know how much we spoke.
It was sporadic. Sometimes wed not speak for a while, other weeks wed speak most days. It just depended. Same with messaging.
I also don't think his wife is controlling. He never mentioned that, and even when he told me she knew and was upset about it, he never said anything about her being controlling.
I guess I'm just trying to process the situation. At the time it didn't even cross my mind that we were doing anything wrong. And I guess I'm just concerned how the wife feels knowing that she's just discovered something that she could interpret the wrong way (obviously his fault for not telling her).

Sounds like a totally normal friendship to me.

Except for him keeping it secret, which is weird and quite stupid of him.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 15:31

RosePombear · 15/03/2024 14:27

I’d find it really odd if my male friends kept me or our conversations secret from their partner. If the relationship is friendly and innocent there’s no need to keep anything secret, it would make me question his intentions with our friendship.

But you would expect to be able to confide in your female friends, wouldn't you?

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 15:35

altmember · 15/03/2024 14:56

There's a big difference between a regular friend and being bestest friends. If you're sending and receiving dozens of messages a day, meeting every morning (albeit while exercising a pet), and discussing personal aspects of your marriage, then that is way beyond your average friend relationship. Is it more/closer than your friendships with people of the same sex as you generally are?

Only person I message every single day is my partner. Friends can have radio silence for days, weeks, even months in some cases, but then when we do chat there is a burst of messages making a conversation. But if I messaged any of my friends small talk every single day, they'd all get a bit pissed off with hearing from me!

When you're investing substantial time and energy outside of your relationship, possibly to it's detriment, it's not really surprising that a partner might start to feel jealous. How is it different to an emotional affair?

You obviously don't have close friends, but that is to be expected on a site with a lot of parents. Single and childless people usually see their friends more often. I'm not one of the ones who meet up texts every day, but plenty of people do.

I would imagine the difference between a friendship and an emotional affair is obvious, otherwise everyone who sees their friend(s) often is having an emotional affair!

IsadoraQuill · 15/03/2024 15:55

I was the wife in this situation and it was fucking awful.

It didn't matter that it wasn't sexual. It was the sheer volume of communication that was shared at a time when my husband was simultaneously being distant with me. When I found out, I realised that he had been prioritizing communication with her, providing emotional support to her, and building her up and disregarding me.

I have nothing but contempt for the other woman who showed a complete lack of professional boundaries.

The fact that he has kept it secret, like my husband did, screams volumes.

Back off. Seriously. This won't end well.

SabreIsMyFave · 15/03/2024 16:07

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 14:10

"I have 5 female friends who I am quite close to, and I don't do this with them! We just meet for coffee or a pub lunch every month or so, and meet at social groups."

You're not very close to your friends if you only meet up once a month!
Plenty of friends see each other every day. For me, it's only about once a week, but I wouldn't consider once a month close at all.

@Gwenhwyfar

What a ridiculous comment. You clearly missed the bit where I said I see them at social groups! 🙄 And I am very surprised, because you quoted it! I see several - or all 5 of them - once or twice a week at these groups. As well as for pub lunch or coffee once a month. We are very good close friends who are there for each other, who help each other in an emergency, and who go away on daytrips/ weekends together several times a year. Also all exchange cards and gifts on birthdays and at Christmas.

Nevertheless, you don't have to see friends every day - or even once a week to be close friends, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.. You don't know me, and you know nothing about my relationships with my 5 close friends, so don't act like you do with your 'you are not close friends' comment. You literally know nothing about me and my friends.

SabreIsMyFave · 15/03/2024 16:14

IsadoraQuill · 15/03/2024 15:55

I was the wife in this situation and it was fucking awful.

It didn't matter that it wasn't sexual. It was the sheer volume of communication that was shared at a time when my husband was simultaneously being distant with me. When I found out, I realised that he had been prioritizing communication with her, providing emotional support to her, and building her up and disregarding me.

I have nothing but contempt for the other woman who showed a complete lack of professional boundaries.

The fact that he has kept it secret, like my husband did, screams volumes.

Back off. Seriously. This won't end well.

100% this. Why do married men DO this?! Married women don't do it with other men! Hmm Does it give the (married) man some kind of ego boost or something? Does it make him feel all special and big and manly, having a poor iccle vulnerable helpless sad woman sobbing into his chest? Confused

Seriously, what do these men get out of it?

Nothingbuttheglory · 15/03/2024 16:19

If you care about this bloke (as a friend), you want him to have a happy marriage, right? I'd back right off. There's no way a few text and email chats are worth getting in the middle of someone's marriage drama over.

xSideshowAuntSallyx · 15/03/2024 16:19

I'd ask why he kept you a secret the rest is up to him to sort out.

I've lots of male friends, and have never been kept a secret as there is nothing to keep a secret. I meet one for lunch sometimes, we used to message a lot when he wasn't working and I had just split with my ex but I wasn't a secret.

My best friend is a man, I've never been kept a secret, I'm virtually family, I've been included on family days out and holidays, I went to his wedding.

C1N1C · 15/03/2024 16:29

I think of this as a no-win situation... and I guess it applies to either sex.

Would many people be happy if their partner spent frequent time with a single member of the opposite sex?

Your partner has a friend of the opposite sex. They get along well. If they tell you that they're seeing them (a lot), there aren't many people who wouldn't (eventually) get jealous in that situation.
Conversely, they don't tell you, and you find out 'somehow'. It now looks 10 x worse... what were they hiding? Why?
If that person came to you and said it was innocent, would you believe them anyway?

MN often spouts lines like "this looks suspicious... why is he seeing her so much... he isn't inviting you along" etc...

It's a no-win situation, and it's invariably easier to just say 'out with the guys' and hope for the best, even if completely innocent.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 16:40

"You clearly missed the bit where I said I see them at social groups! 🙄 "

You didn't say how often those were.

"Nevertheless, you don't have to see friends every day - or even once a week to be close friends, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.. "

No, but if the only friends you had were ones you saw only once a month (which I realise now is not your case) and you were also single, you'd be a very lonely person.

Gwenhwyfar · 15/03/2024 16:41

Nothingbuttheglory · 15/03/2024 16:19

If you care about this bloke (as a friend), you want him to have a happy marriage, right? I'd back right off. There's no way a few text and email chats are worth getting in the middle of someone's marriage drama over.

The happiness of his marriage is his business, not OP's.

hopscotcher · 15/03/2024 16:49

Firstly I'd wonder why he was telling me & whether he was quite enjoying the idea of women competing for him.
If he was telling me out of genuine concern, I'd ask him to reassure her that there was nothing inappropriate going on. I wouldn't particularly want to speak to her myself - ultimately the dynamics of their relationship are their business.
Either way I might hold back on the 'sharing' with him for a while.