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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it

434 replies

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 17:52

Hi all. Ive come to a realisation lately that has almost brought me close to tears because I have to accept that Im probably going to be single for the rest of my life. Grab a cuppa because this is probably going to be long.

For context, I am a single 33 year old female with my own business, own house, no kids, independent, no baggage, relatively attractive (without blowing my own trumpet) and look young enough than my actual age, have a masters degree, love travelling, open minded, funny (I like to think so), clever, lots of friends, love socialising (out most weekends), and I have some depth to me and actually give a shit about things in life that a lot of people disregard, like animal welfare, homelessness etc. In a nutshell, I’m decent.

Here is the boat I find myself in…
I’ve had 3 proper relationships in my life, all no longer than 12 months, 2 of them verbally abusive and cheaters. Ive got a thick skin now and try not to take any shit and I’m aware of potential red flags that may pop up. Ive been on my own for over 5 years now, with little flings here and there. I’ve tried online dating, but the thing is, I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me but open minded to many other things), decent job, decent human being. I don’t care if theyre divorced or already have kids, I’m just fundamentally looking for the bare minimum – to fancy them, initially. I’ve had sexless relationships in the past and its not fun for either party – fancying someone is a must.

Whenever I fancy men in real life, I imagine if they were on a dating site and I ask myself if I’d have swiped for them based just on their pictures and the answer is no, I probably wouldn’t, unless of course they are the ‘conventionally good looking’ type that have had the balls to come over to me on a night out (rarely happens these days, and if it does, they turn out to be a narcissist – hence the macho confidence and charisma). So I know dating sites aren’t working for me, as Im much more likely to fancy someone when I can see the ‘fuller picture’ ie their voice, humour, intelligence, wittiness, their mannerisms etc etc. My theory is that most of the men that are conventionally ‘good looking’ and get the most swipes, are probably lacking in all the areas Ive listed above that are attractive traits, and are more than likely players as they have the pick of the bunch (we are ALL swiping for the good looking ones – and they fucking know it!).
You might ask why I haven’t settled down with the men ive met organically then above, the ‘normal’ ones that have traits I like. Here is where my problem really is – they have clocked on that they are a fucking rarity.

Have you been on a night out recently and looked around? There are about 15 attractive women to every ‘good looking’ man. I believe this is because women naturally take more pride in their appearance than men do, and now that we earn our own money, we splash it on treatments and tweakments. It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023.
Equally, what are men having done? Well, theres the ones who give a shit about their appearance so they might go to the gym 4 times a week (no im not talking about sted heads - yuck), they may splash out in designer gear head to toe (cringe), or the ones with a little bit of class may shop at Reiss instead (better), but you get my jist. They might visit the barber once a week too for a fresh trim. And the rest of them? Nada. No gym, possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about), maybe they haven’t gone shopping for years. But what do both of these types of men both have in common? They both think they are entitled to stunning women.

As ive explained, the ratio of attractive women to attractive men is off the scale. If you haven’t noticed it before, you will now, especially 40 year olds and under. 50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t. You were either an alpha male at 6 ft 2, or you weren’t, and that was ok. You would simply marry up (literally) with someone who was in the same league as you. Now, women are having to lower their bar and accept less than what they deserve, simply because theres so much competition and not enough men to go around. Ask yourself, how many kind, gorgeous, successful, funny, clever, good yet single women do you know? I can bet it’s a lot.

Again, looking back at relationships 50 years ago and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married, and kind of understood the unwritten rule that they needed to ‘keep their man happy’. On the other hand, men kept us happy too. We didn’t need to work and split the finances, we had the luxury of staying at home, cooking, cleaning and raising the kids as regardless of what anyone says, women are more nurturing, emotional, and quite frankly - do a better job of bringing up the children. This worked out fine for men - they went to work, provided for their family (which triggered their hero instinct), and got their dick sucked in return. Masculine and feminine energy intertwined perfectly, sorry feminists, but its true. And the women were happy, until they weren’t.

We then kicked off that we wanted equal rights to men, equal pay, equal jobs, the list goes on, and we got it. We are now a bunch of independent, self sufficient, home owning, driving, single mothers. We’re basically masculine. The men haven’t changed their role though, they aren’t now staying at home, cooking, cleaning and bringing up the kids, they haven’t sacrificed anything but yet they are still reaping the awards. The award – sex.

We somehow have manipulated ourselves into believing that woman need sex like men do (we don’t), and we can sleep around, use men, get our kit off and call it ‘empowering’. It was only empowering when we got the respect we deserved 50 years ago and the mortgage paid. Now, we don’t get called the next day and get pied off for a woman 10 years younger. Men don’t want commitment, period. We nag them, we remind them of their mothers, they have more fun with their friends and we’re a headache to them. The only benefit they have from having a woman in their lives is sex. Period. And we have continued to spoil them with it, with minimal effort from them. We’re lucky if they buy us a plate of food before we do the honour. But we naturally want more, we are wired differently to men, and this is why they USED to meet us in the middle.

But here’s the thing, when we demand more (commitment), the men back off - have you noticed? We get ghosted when we want something in return. Do not let other women fool you into thinking both sexes are getting a good deal by having intercourse, we aren’t. Men inherently need sex, they think about sex thousands of times per day, they even pay for it, and women enjoy it…sometimes, but we don’t inherently need it.
So why on earth are we still having sex freely with men who haven’t earned it, sometimes even with strangers, and blaming being ghosted on countless other reasons? Hes not ready for commitment, hes been hurt before, hes too busy with work, hes avoidantly attached…he’s not. He just doesn’t want to buy the cow when the milk is free.

I personally have took a stance and have stopped having sex with men that haven’t put the bare minimum amount of effort in, to be frank. By bare minimum, I mean he returns my texts, picks me up, takes me out for a few dinners and is nice to me. I’m not asking for a lot. Ive read ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ and ‘The Rules’ – but these books only work with 2 willing participants. It still doesn’t develop into the fairytale romance I had once envisioned on the first date with him, he either doesn’t feel a connection or he’s backed away at the thought of committing.

Some of you will say “not all men are like that”. This is true. Here is my other theory – the ‘other’ men who may be short, insecure, abusive, jobless, homeless, ugly or stupid may be more than willing to settle down with me – you can bet their bottom dollar they are – but I would like someone who brings something to the table, like I do. I won’t fancy a man who is wet behind the ears, who is scared of a hard days work and would be happy to sit at home raising our kids – it’s not masculine and I don’t want it. The ‘other’ men who are none of the things I’ve listed above and are genuinely fantastic men with a lot to offer, raised right and want to commit to a good woman – guess what? THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN. They were taken in their twenties, and they stayed with that woman, because they are kind, loving, loyal men.

The dating pool for 30, 40, 50 something women now is DIER and we are left with the commitment phobes, abusers, narcissists or tons of baggage that we don’t want. The feminist movement along with plastic surgery and ‘empowering’ women has damaged us. We now all offer the same thing to men and they are spoiled for choice. I was chatting with a male friend of mine not long ago who had been seeing a woman who ticked a lot of boxes but she wanted exclusivity before she agreed to have sex. He didn’t want to be exclusive or commit in any way to any woman, so he let her go. I asked him if he was confident if he would find a good woman like her again in the future, he said yes, and I believe him. We are all competing with each other to be the thinnest, prettiest, most enhanced, smartest, richest to bag the best man, and he’s sitting back and laughing at us all climb over each other in desperation. He’s chilled as a cucumber.

My biological clock is ticking, his isn’t. The men aren’t worried, we are. The men aren’t on mumsnet starting threads about women who won’t have sex with them, because we do. But trust me, if we took this big asset away, they would. Have you noticed how many eligible bachelors you know who just decide when theyre about 45-50 that they are ‘finally ready to settle down’? And they find someone pretty much right away, usually 15 years younger, a box ticker, no kids, no baggage and very fucking fertile. He becomes a dad and gets married and everyone goes “ah at last! He finally found -the One!”. No – she isn’t the one who changed him, she was the one who was there when he realised his looks were fading and he better take what he can while he can. Meanwhile, the women he messed around with back in the day are well into their fifties, still single, possibly childless and debating whether to date someone 20 years older who may cherish them the way no man their age ever did. Do I want to date someone 20 years older than me to feel special? No thanks.

I believe if we all took a stance and stopped giving men the one thing they NEED (sex), until they give us what we NEED (love and commitment), things will change. Stop sexting and sending nudes – they used to pay Babestation for that, now we’re doing it for free! Stop allowing them to waltz in and out of your life every other weekend when he feels like it. Stop popping kids out to undeserving men who wont even put a ring on your finger. A child is the greatest gift a woman can give to a man, its priceless and its basically fucking magical. Yet, people are allowing their wombs to be invaded by men who couldn’t give 2 shits about them when it comes down to it. We then raise fatherless children who grow up with daddy issues and the cycle repeats again. We need to raise the bar and say NO collectively, or else it won’t work. The bimbo on Saturday night who goes home with him after one drink (bare minimum) will undo all our hard work.
If the feminist movement hadn’t have happened, I don’t believe relationships would be as dire as they are right now. Its great that we earn the same as men and have our independence, but look at the price we have paid. They haven’t paid any price, nothing has changed for them, infact it only got EASIER. They still get sex and kids, but no bills or commitment – bingo! We have normalised this behaviour and it’s time to put an end to it.

I can turn down a man for sex tomorrow, but he’s not bothered because he always knows this… theres another desperate girl hoping that if she fucks like a pornstar Friday night she will bag him. She won’t. And he will move on to the next. Women look for love, men only fall in love by accident – by spending quality time with a woman. But they can’t fall in love if we give it up too easy when his foot is already out the door.

As you can tell I've given this a lot of thought and I'm disappointed with where I find myself at my age, and where I think the world is heading. Does anyone else feel the same way?

OP posts:
User135644 · 08/01/2024 19:14

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 19:05

Just posting to add that I do NOT want to be a stay at home mum, cooking and cleaning. I’m glad I have my own independence. But I’m saying this is the price we’ve paid…men aren’t providing…anything? Can’t even commit to one woman and if they can, how many of them cheat again? Remind me

You're only interested in the few top men who have all these options and meet all your essential criteria for a date with you in the first place.

ru53 · 08/01/2024 19:14

If you are a real person I strongly suggest therapy.

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 19:15

But I’m saying this is the price we’ve paid…men aren’t providing…anything?

In a good marriage/partnership - both partners provide something... .. whether it's wages, housework, cooking, DIY, childcare, emotional support, financial management, admin etc etc. They both bring something to the table depending on their skills, strengths and according to circumstances - which may change throughout the partnership.

Not sure what's complicated about that.

Deathbyathousandcats · 08/01/2024 19:16

I lost the will to live two paragraphs in.

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it
ironorchids · 08/01/2024 19:17

"The women were happy, until they weren't" is not true.

The women were second class citizens and treated as such and were often extremely unhappy and more often than now trapped and abused.

5thCommandment · 08/01/2024 19:17

" I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me"

Basically "I can't find what I want by looks so I'm whinging"

They is your issue. Looks over personality.

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 19:18

Dylanesque · 08/01/2024 19:13

What is wrong with men in 2023? I thought it was now 2024...

Well.spotted.

Clearly this manifesto was written last year and the author has been so absorbed in their "theories" that they've not even realised the date needed updated.

DuchessPotato · 08/01/2024 19:18

Winnading · 08/01/2024 18:40

I think it's a man. I couldn't read it all, far too long. But the berating women sounds like a man.

Or a journo

Hubblebubble · 08/01/2024 19:19

@blacksax no, but internalised misogyny is its own kind of tragic

Tabitha005 · 08/01/2024 19:19

Oh, god, I had NO idea my bald, 5'7" husband was such a poor choice on my part. Maybe I was drunk or something when I, with seemingly every knowing fibre of my being, deliberately clicked on his profile on the online dating website around 17 years ago EVEN though he was very clearly bald in the photos and even mentioned his height in his profile (to weed out the height-ists at the first opportunity, no doubt).

I've a feeling the OP may have been written by a man in 'women's clothing'.

silverbirches · 08/01/2024 19:20

Dylanesque · 08/01/2024 19:13

What is wrong with men in 2023? I thought it was now 2024...

😂😂😂

WhoIsnt · 08/01/2024 19:21

Wow, couldn't read all your poorly written drivel sorry, but essentially you're a misogynist!

No wonder you can't find a half decent bloke if you're full of contradictions and want a 'masculine man' and categorically one who doesn't want to be home raising his own kids... weird post.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 08/01/2024 19:22

ironorchids · 08/01/2024 19:17

"The women were happy, until they weren't" is not true.

The women were second class citizens and treated as such and were often extremely unhappy and more often than now trapped and abused.

I'm trying to find something about the 1969 or 1973 divorce reform. IIRC at the time the media was obsessed that divorce reforms would lead to middle aged wives being dumped in large numbers, but it turned out that when the reforms became law the majority of the petitions were lodged by women.

blacksax · 08/01/2024 19:22

Hubblebubble · 08/01/2024 19:19

@blacksax no, but internalised misogyny is its own kind of tragic

I lost patience with deluded fools years ago though.

Dillydollydingdong · 08/01/2024 19:23

My man is good looking, kind, thoughtful, generous, happy to pay if we go out, loves animals, considerate where sex is concerned, but guess what? He's only 5ft 5"!!! Cute or what ? 😀

Gwenhwyfar · 08/01/2024 19:23

puncheur · 08/01/2024 18:07

"It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023."

It really, really isn't.

I only know one woman who's had a boob job and she's pretty normal. The rest of it is pretty common after 40.

ShelleyPercy · 08/01/2024 19:25

You've listed all the things you think are wrong with the men you've dated, or who you want to date, or who have tried to date you but you seem to have no sense of your own flaws or what is keeping desirable men away from you. You should reflect on that a little rather than post sexist diatribes on the internet.

Take your own advice and date someone in your own league.

PToosher · 08/01/2024 19:25

I'm a man, height 6'1", quite attractive so I'm told.
I lost the will to live halfway though that whiny rant.

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 19:26

50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t.

More bullshit.

Women used structured underwear, hair dye/bleach, got dental work, makeup, hair styling, clothing etc to "improve" their looks then too.

And pretty - attractive - good looking; are all very subjective.

Lots of people have lots of different types.

VampireWeekday · 08/01/2024 19:27

I stopped reading when you started with the rape apology shit (Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting) it's just not true, men like and want sex, they don't need it. I didn't read anything after that paragraph so everything I've said relates to what came before.

On the off chance this is genuine, I think you've completely misdiagnosed the problem. You say that women are now masculine because they earn money. That is so wrong and offensive. I have a traditionally male and quite "thinky" job and don't care about the tweaks like botox that you mentioned. I'm not masculine, I'm a woman who uses her intellect, and works, like most women. I don't see those characteristics as masculine. I don't understand why you think women like me would be happy cooking and cleaning. I hate those things, I do my fair share of them because I'm not an entitled dickhead like some of the men of old, but I wouldn't find a life cooking and cleaning fulfilling. I don't need a man to "keep me happy" by paying for my lifestyle in exchange for sex because I'm not sex worker, so I don't exchange sex for anything. What I want is a life partner on my level. This is perhaps hard to find because the patriarchial system we live under still tells men (just like you do) that if they're smart and handsome and rich then they are entitled to buy a woman, instead of find someone whom they can build a mutually beneficial life with.

Hard, but not THAT hard. As you say attraction is about the full deal. I'm not at all attracted to photos of men, but find loads of men in real life very attractive. It's everything - how they talk, laugh, smell, the things they say, whether they make me laugh and whether they're kind. Unless you're perfect yourself you'll probate have to compromise somewhere - men are real people too, there are no prince charming in real life.

shalligiveupagain · 08/01/2024 19:27

I recently went back on OLD and deliberately did not have any criteria related to looks, as I have found that when I actually thought about it the majority of men I find attractive in real life are not ones I would find attractive in a photo, as chemistry is based on far more than that. It sounds like you are more interested in a trophy than a genuine connection.

It's also incredibly sexist and a huge generalisation to say women want love and men want sex. Plenty of women don't want to fall in love, me included, and I have dated several men that wanted more commitment than I did.

MariaLuna · 08/01/2024 19:27

^ looking back at relationships B50 years agoB and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. BPretty much all women were virgins until they were marriedB

That's as far as I got. You're having a laugh or thinking 50 years ago was the Victorian age.

I'm 68, so was 18 50 years ago. Lost my virginity at 16, some of my friends at 14 or 15. No-one I ever knew was a virgin on their wedding day.

Anyway, I'll read the rest now. Just wanted to clue you in on that.

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 19:28

Men needed sex (its in their DNA

Women like fucking too.

Have you never experienced that?

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 08/01/2024 19:28

I genuinely cannot believe that a woman of your age thinks like this.

My DH is very masculine. But you'd describe him as "wet behind the ears" simply because he wouldn't care if I earned the money, or if he had to stay home with the kids. Because he's not a caveman. He's perfectly capable and willing to do whatever part of our family life is needed of him at whatever time in our lives it's needed. Sometimes I've been the higher earner, sometimes it's him. Sometimes I'm off to London for business trips and he stays home with DC. Sometimes I do a week where I do all the childcare.

You sound like you're looking for Prince Charmjng to rescue you, rather than to be part of a partnership or family. There's a lot wrong with a lot of men, but in your case, the reason you can't find one is you. You have really wrong and sad ideas of what a relationship is.

Teaandbiscuits60 · 08/01/2024 19:29

I’m in my 60s have had 3 big relationships one marriage and I can say to you that although I’ve tried to go for different types because of abuse,self centredness I can tell you they were all the same devil in different guises. Currently in a 20 year relationship and he’s turned out the same. I honestly hate all men and wonder why on Earth I have attracted parasites all these years. If anything happened to my significant other ( because I genuinely love him) I can promise you that I’d never bother again! I wish I had stuck to my promise to myself years ago, not to bother. Sorry for the downer but men are a complete and utter waste of space. I regret looking for and having a relationship because life has passed me by.