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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Help me communicate one thing with PDA partner

104 replies

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:12

Edited to add: apologies for massive post!

I’m looking for advice from PDA and/or autistic people, or people in relationships with PDA / autistic people. Please don’t comment if you have no understanding of PDA, or have strong ideas about people using autism as an ‘excuse’.

I need help communicating something important in our relationship to my DH who is extremely sensitive to perceived criticism. I want him to stop offering to do things he will not do.

Background: my DH and DC are PDA. I didn’t realise DH was PDA until our DC was diagnosed. There was a lot that puzzled me about his behaviour but I could see that he had good intentions. Seeing what our DC has struggled with since birth, and his huge distress and frustration when he can’t do things he wants to be able to do, helps me understand what is going on fundamentally with my DH that he has been trying to work around for 40-odd years.

Life is extremely complex at home (to say the least) and I bear all the mental and practical load for everything. DH works at a job he dislikes to support us financially, as I can only work very limited hours around DC’s needs. Work takes all of his spoons. He needs to recharge in the evenings with his special interests, and often comes to bed late and sleeps late in the mornings.

The issue troubling me today is that DH said last night, ‘please don’t do any cleaning up, I’ll do it before I go to bed.’ I expressed thanks for this, though I knew he would not do it, and I’d come down in the morning to a mess. Which is exactly what happened. It happens a lot.

This gets to the core of an issue that is causing a lot of resentment for me.

There is seemingly no gentle enough way of saying, ‘thank you for offering to clean up - it means a lot to me that you recognise it needs doing, and that you don’t expect me to do it all myself. But I am going to do it, because it’s important to me that it gets done in a particular timeframe.’ Even this feels to him like an attack and makes him angry and defensive.

I have tried saying, ‘oh don’t worry, I’ll do it, it’s no trouble,’ but that doesn’t sit well with me and feels dishonest. I don’t want to give the impression that I want to do all of everything in the house single-handedly, that I somehow enjoy it. I don’t.

I have tried waiting until he gets up in the morning (invariably 2 hours after DC and I do) and saying, in the warmest tone I can muster, hey thanks for volunteering to clean up last night - it would be great if you could sort the kitchen. But this is both a demand and a reminder of something he hasn’t done, which can feel to him like a violent character assassination.

If he sees or hears me doing the washing up and remembers that he’d offered to do it, even THAT feels like an attack to him and he’ll have a go at me for not trusting him to do it when he’d said he would.

All I want is for him not to offer.

I want him to be able to sit with whatever discomfort it causes him that he can’t do this stuff, rather than making it my issue to manage, or requiring me to collude in the pretence that he can.

I don’t want to sneak around quietly doing the dishes and letting him take credit, like he’s Santa Claus. I want us to be able to be clear and honest about who does what and why. With no judgement! But with due acknowledgement and appreciation for what each of us does.

I have tried and tried for years, since learning about PDA, to say, I get it that you have executive function issues. I get it that you literally cannot do something if it feels like a demand or an expectation. What bothers me is not so much that you don’t do the thing, but that you insist that you will, and often insist that I don’t crack on and do it myself (presumably because seeing me do something you know you should be doing feels like a criticism / indirect demand?) - and then become extremely indignant and offended if I remind you even in the gentlest manner.

He is 100% not doing this on purpose. He wants to be able to do the things. But he can’t. And he can’t accept this about himself.

But I just want the fucking dishes done. I don’t want the extra emotional labour of relieving him of his guilt about not doing the dishes.

Can anyone suggest to me how I might communicate this to him in a way that won’t get his hackles up? Or do I just need to accept that this is another thing he can’t do, and work on letting it go?

It doesn’t come across in this post but we have a good relationship in so many ways. He supports me to pursue my interests and friendships and is loyal to a fault and extremely funny and an enormously loving and dedicated father. But daily life is a massive struggle and we are all on our knees with exhaustion.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/01/2024 10:18

You could try saying beforehand 'I want the washing up done now'. He'll then refuse and you can get on with it - or saying 'I am doing the washing up now' and he'll insist that he does it immediately?

Or just get into the habit of cleaning as you cook so that there isn't anything more than 3 plates and some cutlery to deal with (and have a dishwasher), rather than a big task for him to get ornery about in the first place.

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:24

Thank you. We do have a dishwasher. It is hard to convey the level of utter chaos in our home with an ADHD / PDA DC and lots of food / sensory sensitivities requiring 3 different meals for everyone, eaten in a variety of rooms of the house to avoid the smells of other people’s dinner, so there will always be some ongoing massive task or other!

Do you think there is no way of helping him understand on a broader level what the issue is with this? His need to think of himself as a partner who pulls his weight domestically, and his requirement that I collide? I think I struggle with not being able to communicate any of my needs in the relationship without angry pushback because of his autonomy needs.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 07/01/2024 10:25

You have written so eloquently here - may I suggest you do the same to him send him an email detailing your concerns

The irony is you have PDA yet you are able to see the situation and offer ways to manage it yet you believe he is incapable.

At his age and stage I doubt that he is incapable of reading your very reasonable opinion and responding appropriately given all the nice things you have said about him

Quitelikeit · 07/01/2024 10:27

Oh and you should also mention that it makes you feel nervous and apprehensive when he gets cross

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:32

I don’t have PDA. (I have ADHD - which adds another layer of complexity 😬 but meds help a lot).

Unfortunately based on previous experience he would probably not speak to me for days if I sent this. His sensitivity to criticism is such that all he hears is that he is a bad person. This is undoubtedly trauma from growing up undiagnosed with little understanding from family / school. But he won’t seek therapy.

OP posts:
OldBeyondMyYears · 07/01/2024 10:32

Quitelikeit · 07/01/2024 10:25

You have written so eloquently here - may I suggest you do the same to him send him an email detailing your concerns

The irony is you have PDA yet you are able to see the situation and offer ways to manage it yet you believe he is incapable.

At his age and stage I doubt that he is incapable of reading your very reasonable opinion and responding appropriately given all the nice things you have said about him

The OP does not have PDA...her husband and child do.

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:35

Quitelikeit · 07/01/2024 10:27

Oh and you should also mention that it makes you feel nervous and apprehensive when he gets cross

That is a good point. I will try to find a clear and gentle way of expressing this.

OP posts:
Daftasabroom · 07/01/2024 10:36

@Bunnyhair I can sympathise. You have just described DW and DS. I'm not sure I have any useful advice . I did write a letter once, it didn't go down very well at all.

Wotchaz · 07/01/2024 10:41

Although not diagnosed PDA, my DH has ADHD and is extremely sensitive to perceived criticism too.

In your shoes, when he offered I would do what you were suggesting and just say “I appreciate the offer, but it’s important to me that I come down to a clean kitchen in the morning so I will do it now” and if (when) this is taken badly, follow it up with reassurance that you don’t think any worse of him because he can’t do it, and that you appreciate him recognising that it needs doing. And if this causes him discomfort still, that is no longer your responsibility. You are absolutely right to want the honesty in your relationship of recognising where the burdens/difficulties lie, and that it’s not all with him and your DC.

hitherandhither · 07/01/2024 10:42

I think if he can't help it, anything you say/do will be implied criticism. Instead of the washing up, is there something else he could do that he wouldn't find so demanding? A trade of sorts - you do the washing up whilst he does another task that you know he'll do well? (Set up for success)

Or if he washes, you fry and put away if the task of washing up seems too overwhelming in one go? (Break the task down into small steps so less overwhelming)

bendypines · 07/01/2024 10:45

When you come down in the morning to the mess he said he would clear up the night before but didn't do - what would happen if you just ignored it?

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:47

@hitherandhither It’s not the not doing it that bothers me so much as his wanting thanks and appreciation for stating the intention to do it, and gallantly insisting I leave it to him. And then never doing it. There’s something about doing it myself, having already thanked him for doing it, that really begins to curdle my soul.

OP posts:
Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:49

bendypines · 07/01/2024 10:45

When you come down in the morning to the mess he said he would clear up the night before but didn't do - what would happen if you just ignored it?

He would come down and wash a mug for himself and drink his tea and scroll on his phone until it was time to start work. Times when I’ve gone away for a night or two I come home and all the cupboard doors are open and every single dish is dirty and there are dirty clothes all over the floor and nobody has bathed and the cats haven’t been fed.

OP posts:
Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:51

Wotchaz · 07/01/2024 10:41

Although not diagnosed PDA, my DH has ADHD and is extremely sensitive to perceived criticism too.

In your shoes, when he offered I would do what you were suggesting and just say “I appreciate the offer, but it’s important to me that I come down to a clean kitchen in the morning so I will do it now” and if (when) this is taken badly, follow it up with reassurance that you don’t think any worse of him because he can’t do it, and that you appreciate him recognising that it needs doing. And if this causes him discomfort still, that is no longer your responsibility. You are absolutely right to want the honesty in your relationship of recognising where the burdens/difficulties lie, and that it’s not all with him and your DC.

Thank you, this is a good reminder. One thing I would like to get better at is enduring the moods. Building a little psychological buffer around myself and remembering that it doesn’t need to permeate me.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/01/2024 10:51

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:24

Thank you. We do have a dishwasher. It is hard to convey the level of utter chaos in our home with an ADHD / PDA DC and lots of food / sensory sensitivities requiring 3 different meals for everyone, eaten in a variety of rooms of the house to avoid the smells of other people’s dinner, so there will always be some ongoing massive task or other!

Do you think there is no way of helping him understand on a broader level what the issue is with this? His need to think of himself as a partner who pulls his weight domestically, and his requirement that I collide? I think I struggle with not being able to communicate any of my needs in the relationship without angry pushback because of his autonomy needs.

Not really, no.

I found that the best way to deal with things (ADHD) was to be absolutely ruthless about routine and method in food preparation myself - I had an 'advantage' in having a tiny, tiny kitchen where I could only open the fridge door if standing in the hallway and there was one 1.2m surface, so there was no way I could get to the point of having a messy, chaotic kitchen if there was to be a single meal on a plate in the first place.

After 17 years, it was ingrained in me that chop veg - into pan on hob - scraps and peel straight into the bin - wipe surface, etc, pan straight under tap and rinsed/washed/into dishwasher, etc, etc, so there wasn't any mess to clean up, all the pans were done before they needed scrubbing, the dishwasher was stacked, tablet in and ready to go the moment the plates were done, which meant that when I moved to a house with a larger kitchen, it was all automatic and the kitchen looked as clean as when I started.

I also had a walking into the house routine that was 1. don't sit down, 2. coat hung, bag hung, shoes off, straight to kitchen and unload dishwasher, etc, so nothing built up.

Once it's automatic to do that, it's not another big task or demand to avoid.

By comparison, DP will try to start cooking in a messy kitchen where the sides aren't clear and things aren't washed up and put away, doesn't clean as he goes and generally leaves stuff to fester and get in the way, building up until he then puts off dealing with it because there's so much there. And then if I clean it, he puts off cleaning up again after making it messy by not cleaning as he went along...

Tablewaterandbrie · 07/01/2024 10:52

I don't think you can achieve the outcome you want TBH OP.

My relationship with my ex was similar. He was an absolute walking disaster and I accidentally and unintentionally fell into the role of a mother to him. I did all the housework, managed all the bills, fixed every problem etc. Which was fine when we didn't have kids. But as soon as we had kids and he didn't step up (or grow the fuck up as I once so eloquently put it), the resentment just grew and grew from there.

DC1 was diagnosed with Autism in 2021 and ex and I began to join the dots that ex was always very similar to DC1. But I don't think it helped with our relationship. Because it would always be a relationship where I was in the parent role to his child like role. He had a very similar attitude to the housework as your DP. He wouldn't do it himself but always seemed annoyed that I did it. We got to a point in our relationship where he seemed permanently annoyed if I was doing anything at all. He did not meet my needs for emotional connection or intimacy and everything just festered and withered away between us.

It mutually ended last year. I'm not sure if there was an overlap or not, but after 2 months he had started a relationship and moved in with another woman who seems to have taken over the mother role in his life. I feel like a huge weight was been lifted from my life. I no longer feel like I have 3 children to run around after.

I'm sorry I don't have any advice to give you the solution that you want. But having lived in a similar situation, the solution for me was for the relationship to end.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/01/2024 10:53

and the cats haven’t been fed

I'd kick him out for neglecting the cats, though. That's a non negotiable, I don't care if you have ADHD, PDA, Autism or the entire fucking alphabet because I've got half of them myself, you do not neglect innocent animals to the extent that they could quite literally die (cats go into organ failure if not fed).

cansu · 07/01/2024 10:54

What about how you feel? I live with someone autistic and I think it is very easy to fall into a trap whereby you completely disregard your own needs. Yes he has a disability but presumably he knows he has this disability. Personally if it is difficult for him to talk calmly then I would set it out to him on paper or in an email. However I would think hard about whether your needs are being met at all.

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:54

@NeverDropYourMooncup I would love this. But with a child constantly clinging to my leg and unable to cope with not having my undivided attention or utter violence ensues, there is no possibility of routine or order in any of our domestic activities until he’s asleep. It’s hard to express how difficult daily life is when the impairments are considerable.

OP posts:
JellyMouldJnr · 07/01/2024 10:56

The only thing I can think is, like pp said, make cleaning up part of the routine. What would happen if you said ‘let’s do it together now and get it done twice as quickly’?

OldBeyondMyYears · 07/01/2024 10:57

OP you have my sympathies - PDA is incredibly challenging to live with. I'm a primary teacher and currently have a child in my class with PDA. It's been the most challenging time of my career thus far. I have read everything I can get my hands on about the condition and all of it, in a nutshell, say the same thing: what might work at 9am will probably not work at 9.30am. In other words...it's pot luck 🤷‍♀️

I have literally no idea how to support this child...I'm in tears most days as I feel like I'm failing them. I spend much of my day trying to find them (they run when in 'flee' mode), manage aggressive outbursts (they tip desks, throw chairs, destroy things), or mitigate aggression (they will attack and hurt people when in 'fight' mode). If this isn't happening, they 'freeze' and can stay in the 'freeze' mode for hours at a time. I have NO support in my classroom, so 29 other children are being affected by this...and again, I feel like I'm failing them. It's very difficult.

Mum is very supportive and has two other children, both autistic, so she is also struggling at home with all three, but says she finds her PDA child the hardest to manage. I feel so impotent, as I can't suggest anything as I don't know the answers either. My LEA won't acknowledge PDA as a diagnosis (many don't) so we can't get an EHCP or support. It's hard.

You may have read this report...I've attached it as a link...but it's an interesting read.

People commenting with no experience of PDA might think differently if they had a read of this. It can't be managed in the same way as other ASD diagnoses are. It's a very misunderstood condition that takes such a huge toll on those who are experiencing the effects.

Obviously I have no advice, but I didn't want to read and run without acknowledging your struggle. 💐

limpsfieldgrange.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/PDA-booklet.pdf

NDandMe · 07/01/2024 10:58

I'm reading this thread with interest, as my youngest has a PDA profile but I am struggling to find ways to communicate with him that keep him regulated. And the concept of PDA really overwhelms me (I'm adhd and this all feels like yet another thing in my life I can't quite manage!).

Would a written list be useful at all, or would that be perceived as a demand as well? I'm wondering if the task was broken down into component parts that can be freely chosen rather than the entire amorphous "thing" (where do you start, what order do you go in, what does complete look like? Etc) which isn't easy to do if executive functioning is poor or he's run out of brain space and energy. Ignore me if that's a rubbish idea.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/01/2024 10:59

Bunnyhair · 07/01/2024 10:54

@NeverDropYourMooncup I would love this. But with a child constantly clinging to my leg and unable to cope with not having my undivided attention or utter violence ensues, there is no possibility of routine or order in any of our domestic activities until he’s asleep. It’s hard to express how difficult daily life is when the impairments are considerable.

If you cook with him clinging to your leg (which is massively dangerous in the first place), then you're just as capable of cleaning as you go with him clinging to your leg.

JellyMouldJnr · 07/01/2024 11:01

Sorry, crossed posts with your response

JellyMouldJnr · 07/01/2024 11:04

@NDandMe getting an EHCP shouldn’t depend on a diagnosis, it depends on need. You should definitely push more for an EHCP for that kid in your class.