Help me communicate one thing with PDA partner

[Bunnyhair]

Edited to add: apologies for massive post!

I’m looking for advice from PDA and/or autistic people, or people in relationships with PDA / autistic people. Please don’t comment if you have no understanding of PDA, or have strong ideas about people using autism as an ‘excuse’.

I need help communicating something important in our relationship to my DH who is extremely sensitive to perceived criticism. I want him to stop offering to do things he will not do.

Background: my DH and DC are PDA. I didn’t realise DH was PDA until our DC was diagnosed. There was a lot that puzzled me about his behaviour but I could see that he had good intentions. Seeing what our DC has struggled with since birth, and his huge distress and frustration when he can’t do things he wants to be able to do, helps me understand what is going on fundamentally with my DH that he has been trying to work around for 40-odd years.

Life is extremely complex at home (to say the least) and I bear all the mental and practical load for everything. DH works at a job he dislikes to support us financially, as I can only work very limited hours around DC’s needs. Work takes all of his spoons. He needs to recharge in the evenings with his special interests, and often comes to bed late and sleeps late in the mornings.

The issue troubling me today is that DH said last night, ‘please don’t do any cleaning up, I’ll do it before I go to bed.’ I expressed thanks for this, though I knew he would not do it, and I’d come down in the morning to a mess. Which is exactly what happened. It happens a lot.

This gets to the core of an issue that is causing a lot of resentment for me.

There is seemingly no gentle enough way of saying, ‘thank you for offering to clean up - it means a lot to me that you recognise it needs doing, and that you don’t expect me to do it all myself. But I am going to do it, because it’s important to me that it gets done in a particular timeframe.’ Even this feels to him like an attack and makes him angry and defensive.

I have tried saying, ‘oh don’t worry, I’ll do it, it’s no trouble,’ but that doesn’t sit well with me and feels dishonest. I don’t want to give the impression that I want to do all of everything in the house single-handedly, that I somehow enjoy it. I don’t.

I have tried waiting until he gets up in the morning (invariably 2 hours after DC and I do) and saying, in the warmest tone I can muster, hey thanks for volunteering to clean up last night - it would be great if you could sort the kitchen. But this is both a demand and a reminder of something he hasn’t done, which can feel to him like a violent character assassination.

If he sees or hears me doing the washing up and remembers that he’d offered to do it, even THAT feels like an attack to him and he’ll have a go at me for not trusting him to do it when he’d said he would.

All I want is for him not to offer.

I want him to be able to sit with whatever discomfort it causes him that he can’t do this stuff, rather than making it my issue to manage, or requiring me to collude in the pretence that he can.

I don’t want to sneak around quietly doing the dishes and letting him take credit, like he’s Santa Claus. I want us to be able to be clear and honest about who does what and why. With no judgement! But with due acknowledgement and appreciation for what each of us does.

I have tried and tried for years, since learning about PDA, to say, I get it that you have executive function issues. I get it that you literally cannot do something if it feels like a demand or an expectation. What bothers me is not so much that you don’t do the thing, but that you insist that you will, and often insist that I don’t crack on and do it myself (presumably because seeing me do something you know you should be doing feels like a criticism / indirect demand?) - and then become extremely indignant and offended if I remind you even in the gentlest manner.

He is 100% not doing this on purpose. He wants to be able to do the things. But he can’t. And he can’t accept this about himself.

But I just want the fucking dishes done. I don’t want the extra emotional labour of relieving him of his guilt about not doing the dishes.

Can anyone suggest to me how I might communicate this to him in a way that won’t get his hackles up? Or do I just need to accept that this is another thing he can’t do, and work on letting it go?

It doesn’t come across in this post but we have a good relationship in so many ways. He supports me to pursue my interests and friendships and is loyal to a fault and extremely funny and an enormously loving and dedicated father. But daily life is a massive struggle and we are all on our knees with exhaustion.

My husband has PDA and ADHD

Whilst I have learned and am still learning the best way to speak to him if I need something done, he has also had to learn to adapt to me and ‘trick’ his brain by doing lots of research into how and why he reacts the way he does. He had to take control of it rather than have external parties demand he change.

This came from us having a conversation about how we like to be talked to and what we find hard. E.g I get anxious and overwhelmed if the house is dirty and I find that happens a lot (not placing the blame on him for this being the case). A key tenet of our relationship is that of one of us is struggling and unhappy then there should be no judgement about whether that person is ‘right’ to feel that way or whose fault it is but we should work to fix it together.

I have suggested a clear division of labour but that again feels like something I am ‘imposing’ that he constantly has to mess with. But I think maybe I just need to try not to let it get to me.

Do you have the thing where a "suggestion" is met with an instant "no" (or other negative reactions) but if you push through and go ahead anyway then it does become "what we do"? So you tell him "Lego is your job and washing up is mine" and you have to ignore the fallout, from then on you can meet all offers to wash up with "washing up is my job" and eventually it sinks in?

i think it just strikes at something very difficult at the core of my marriage and family life: that my own desires and needs will only ever be experienced by the people I share most of my life with as a demand and an imposition.

My husband also cannot cope with being told the solution e.g I need you to do X but if I explain clearly ‘I am feeling sick and exhausted today (pregnant) and I’m worried about getting everything done’ then he can (and does) make the choice to help me.

sorry OP, my last post crossed with you most recent one stating, 'i think it just strikes at something very difficult at the core of my marriage and family life: that my own desires and needs will only ever be experienced by the people I share most of my life with as a demand and an imposition.'

To be in a healthy relationship, I think you need to have some limits/boundaries.

It is reasonable to want to be understood. I would find it intolerable to be in a relationship with someone who didn't understand my experience regarding issues that are important to me.

If you want him to understand what certain aspects of the relationship are like for you, and he can't tolerate this, I would consider whether the relationship can be sustained. In this situation I would say that it's important to me that you understand my experience, what things feel like to me. To do this, I need you to be able to talk to you about this. How can I do this without triggering you?

To do lists. On the wall in each room and when they need doing.

It removes the focus on you telling him but the poster is a reminder what needs doing and when.

Living room:

1. Collect all dishes to put in the dishwasher (this is a kitchen job not living room).

1. Collect rubbish and empty paper basket into kitchen nin.
2. Hoover the floor in the living room before 10am. Put hoover away in hoover cupboard.

You could have a tick box which is wiped clean at breakfast. Also a "who is going to do it today" box.

It's consistent, predictable and you are not placing any demands it's just what needs doing each day.

You can look up the low arousal approach online which has some good tips on how to say things. Generally any ought, need, should, have words are not helpful. But you know that. Choice is good.

"Oh thank you for offering, I can do the dishes if you would like to collect them and wipe the table. That would be fabulous"

"I can make a start if you would like to finish the job" means he completes tasks but he is likely going to find initiating them really challenging.

"We can do it together if you would like, it's 5pm now so I'll make a start at 7pm". So no demand but clear, consistent planning. Gives him time to process and plan his time and you initiating will likely encourage him in the co-occupation of caring for your home.

Give him time to prepare for something he may perceive as criticism explaining that you need to talk to him about something that isn't going to erupt in an argument. Also prepare for the fall out which may come anyway. As you know, part of being with someone with PDA is often very challenging discussion. It's very hard and I admire you.

@Brainworm what a lovely post. Thank you.

Just saw your post after - I think he really does his best. I think he wants to be able to be a partner who can work more
mutually and take my needs into consideration. And he tries very hard - and it feels devastating to him that this might not be enough.

I think a lot about Ross Greene’s book The Explosive Child and his idea about being responsive to the cards you’ve been dealt. And at the moment this is the hand I’m playing with, and it’s what a I’ve got and it’s a matter of making the best of it.

It feels lonely sometimes but it also feels we are doing something amazing by parenting our DC in a way we weren’t cared for, and that feels meaningful.

I’m afraid it is not realistic to think we could split and life would be easier or happier. We would struggle a lot financially, our DC would be very unsettled, I still wouldn’t have the time or emotional bandwidth to work much, or to find and nurture a new relationship. And I’d be on my own with nobody to protect me from the hitting and biting from DC.

It means a lot to me to hear people say that my needs do matter. And I believe they do. And I try to get them met by people who can meet them - including myself. But this is just not a situation where I can be a fully actualised person in all respects. For now at least.

I don't pretend to have a solution for you- it sounds very complex.

But could this be part of it? The thanks comrs when you've actually done the thing.
And by the same token, when he's spent time with your child doing youtube/lego (I agree this is labour just as much as household chores in my opinion!) be sure to thank him for that.

I also agree that the psychological bubble and not trying to avoid moods at all costs has to be part of it too.

It's complex because every interaction between you and your DH teaches your DC something about your relationship.

Ah just saw this- so well put.

I think the fact that he won’t seek help managing this, no therapy etc would be a death knell to me. You can’t even tell
him how much this is weighing on you and that you’d like your communications together to improve and seek help with it as it will all be critiscm to him and sulking and silence will ensue. How is anything meant to improve if he has no interest in seeking help in managing his condition.

I am quite sensitive to criticism and I'm pursuing an adhd diagnosis. So i don't have pda or experience of it in my family but home I have enough understanding to say this...

Just because someone has a reason for their behaviours it does not mitigate or diminish the impact those behaviours have on others. It can mean the behaviours may be understood or forgiven more easily. But there's some behaviours which regardless of reason aren't ok.

To me the huffing and effectively kicking off would be that behaviour for me. Life is hard enough without this tiptoeing around him. The worry you feel about upsetting him is evident.

I understand he can't help his behaviour and this makes it quite sad. But perhaps it also means he's actually just not suited to family life? It's just a shame he seemed to have no insight in to this before he committed to having children.

Can I ask Bunnyhair what strategies your husband uses to help him mange the demands of work. Is his job structured or does he WFH at a time he decides? Presumably there is a certain amount of time or output that must be achieved or he doesn’t get paid.
Could he not use similar approach to get washing up done, ie in his calendar is an appointment with reminders “start work” “wash up and wipe surfaces””
Apologies if working already used up all his bandwidth for demands.

@napody that’s a good point about the distinction between ‘thanks’ and ‘Ok’.

I think because daily life is so thankless we are in the habit of thanking each other a lot, which actually does loads for morale. So this may well be partly a ‘me thing’ - that I feel like in acknowledging but not thanking I am withholding something in a pass agg way. But there are ways for it not to be like that.

@Gassylady he’s WFH for almost as long as I’ve known him. He had one job where he had a dress code and set hours and he got some flare up of widespread fibro-style physical pain and couldn’t use his hands for ages and had to be signed off sick. This was pre-PDA diagnosis and we thought it was post-viral or something. Later it all made sense in the context of burnout / shutdown.

He is self employed and often goes 3-4 months between contracts for down time. Job interviews are enormously stressful for him.

At work the demand of using slack / being in scheduled meetings makes him utterly miserable. He managed to do it but is spent by the end of the day.

If he offers to do, do not thank him at this point (he hasn't yet done it, so he will feel he has already done it). I would say OK I look forward to see it done in the morning

Say the kitchen needs cleaned now thanks. Not please, just thanks. If he says no say I'm doing it now and go do it.

Both myself and my children have autism and adhd, cleaning as you go is the only way forward. That's how I run my house and it's clean and fairly tidy.

That makes sense.
Even an 'ooh, that'd be amazing' would work? Very very subtle way of getting across that he hasn't actually done the thing yet!

Sorry, but I'm skeptical. This is a folie a deux whereby your DP says he wants to do the washing up. Doesn't do it...then gets angry an upset with you for doing it, thereby positioning himself as the victim and avoiding the task?

The whole thing works well for him and you end up with more stress. If he can cope with the demands of a full time job he is capable of washing up.

Using 'PDA' to explain his behaviour is rather tenuous IMO. It's not a recognised mental disorder under ICD 11 or DSM.

@nfkl

Does that stand for No Fucking Klue?

So?

Sometimes it takes time to be recognised

I worked with twins who had PDA

I have absolutely no idea how their mother coped

@Nanny0gg . Yes I'm familiar with that argument.

Do you actually believe the DP is incapable of doing the washing up then? Given that he is employed full time (so obviously can do things he doesn't want to do) Not being goady. Genuinely curious.

I think you have the patience of a fucking saint OP. I can see that you're sort of stuck where you are and doing your very best to make it work as much as possible and I think you deserve a medal.

I'm pretty clued up on ASD but know very little about PDA. Do reverses work? So if you got up to go to bed and said 'Don't do the dishes, I'll sort them out in the morning.' Would the request/demand to not do the dishes mean he felt he had to do them? I expect that would just be too easy!

Could you give him a heads up perhaps - for example 'Oh yes I'd really appreciate it if you did the dishes, but if you don't get round to doing it tonight then I'm going to do it tomorrow evening as I don't like having to wash them in the morning.' I also wouldn't be giving him lots of praise for something he hasn't done and probably won't do - as others say this is just encouraging the behaviour.

My other idea is - does sharing help? So if he says 'don't worry about the dishes I'll do them' could you say 'oh that would be great, I wonder if we could do them together now?'. I think this one is less likely to work though as he probably has planned to do the dishes alone later and so the idea of doing them now and with you might completely throw him.

You sound like an absolutely amazing partner and mum OP. Make sure you look after yourself too.

@itsmyp4rty ah bless you. That is really kind.

What works best for us is dividing and conquering. He can’t really do anything ‘together’ as he needs to be completely in control of whatever he’s doing and gets anxious and irritated if anyone does something in not exactly the way he’d have done it. His key phrase is ‘this isn’t a two person job’.

If he just went upstairs and said nothing about cleaning that would be acceptable. It’s just this thing where he dangles a carrot of ‘Hey, don’t worry! I’ve got this! You go relax!’ And then doesn’t. I think it upsets me so much because part of me just desperately longs for someone to say that and mean it. And I think he wants to mean it - he says it because he wants to offer me that sentiment. It is a bid for connection. But once the words are out of his mouth it becomes a practical demand that he can’t meet. Which sets off this shame cycle where we can’t ever talk about the fact he hasn’t done it.

I need to manage my own response to it, I think, and remember not to take it personally. Maybe try to take it super non-literally, as the bid for connection I do believe he intends it to be.

I wish I could explain to posters who think he is a lazy man child. Until I had my DC and saw the awful struggles he has in wanting to show love and affection, wanting to make people happy, but only being able to do it absolutely on his own terms, only outside of any expectation or feeling of being compelled - I wasn’t able to really appreciate how hard this is for my DH. It’s this cruel condition of being very focussed on people and relationships, and desperate for connection, and yet your whole nervous system is primed against collaboration and mutuality or anything that feels like a loss of absolute autonomy.

Life is complex! People are complex.

@Bunnyhair i feel your pain! I have three children with PDA and my husband too!
My husband was diagnosed at 53 with ASD, PDA and ADHD and it explained a lot.

I can see lots of people have replied to you like you are being taken advantage of and I think it looks like that from the outside if you haven't experienced the pain of someone with PDA.

We have similar problems. Lots of promises but things that can't be done.
I ended up having to be blunt and explain that him offering but being unable to do and me avoiding talking about it was actually more stressful than doing the thing!
It took lots of conversations. Lots of me saying it's the promises and the being upset that is the hard work.
So now I wouldn't even mention the washing up etc, I just get up and do it. This has given him some kind of freedom from the stress of it and he now does it more than ever.

I feel you have to drop conversations in bit by bit or it is too much for them to hear. You are extremely lucky that he has that relationship with your child. Mine cannot. I do everything for the children as he sets them off and they set him off. It's exhausting.

As a mum to three PDA children I just wanted to say I'm glad their are some teachers out there that get it.