December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Thanks @mm!

Any alcohol welcome :)

The party: I know! Insane behaviour 🤣

I've got a big party coming up next year too - I expect similar tbh!

I did a small gathering here for her 75th birthday...she had a face like a slapped arse all evening because my golden bollocks brothers child wasnt there....ALL the other less important gc were there though!!

I'm not looking forward to seeing her today (or indeed any day for that matter..) as I didn't see her yesterday due to the panto.

I predict a very frosty reception 😀

I shall breeze in, speading love and light which will really annoy her 😀

Sadly, we only really speak about trivialities now...the weather, the other folk in her sheltered housing complex, plans for shopping trips...

It must be nice to have a mum who you can offload to, who supports you, who sees you a person in your own right .

But I guess you don't miss what you've never had 🤷‍♀️

Thanks for the welcome everyone. I know this season isn’t going to be great as I’m still thinking about all the toxic shit from over the years and anticipating some sort of poison laced guilt trip attempt at contact from them.

@user8800 I apologise for this in advance because it’s probably going to sound judgy or something, but I get very uncomfortable when people talk about using alcohol to deal with abuse simply because for me it became an escape straight away, was pressed on me by my family (about five years ago after I think my second hospitalisation for alcohol poisoning on an empty stomach my mother bullied me into drinking half a bottle of Prosecco with her because she didn’t want to drink alone. She’s also penned me in to a corner and screamed at me to down white wine when I was a bit down on a holiday, which was followed by my most serious - likely to succeed - suicide attempt shortly after!) and following hot on the heels of decades of eating disorders has destroyed my body with unbelievable speed. Admittedly I do go all in with self-destruction, and escalate it very quickly, but I do feel a little tremor of anxiety when I hear about people using alcohol for difficult situation survival tactics. There’s a difference between a glass or two of wine to relax a bit around relatives and two bottles of vodka to make you comatose admittedly, but pain and anxiety of any kind are there to protect you, they tell you “don’t run on this leg/eat this food/keep touching this hot thing/ be in this dangerous situation”. Numbing them reduces your ability to protect yourself.

@Shortbread49 nicely put, they are bonkers but we spent our time wondering what we had done wrong. As kids it didn't occur to us that the parent was shit and absolutely barking mad. They picked fault where the was none, unfortunately that was our normal not the other 99% of people who treated us nicely.
Back in the 1960's/70's I don't think people understood the damage done to children by poor parenting but they do now and yet it is still happening.
In business, friends, social situations, social media I avoid anyone exhibiting toxic or flying monkey behavior, coverts are harder to spot but can't hide it for long. I will no longer tolerate it. Family was the last bit for me to master and was the hardest.

Very well said @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau and very sorry you have gone through all that.

My DH was pressured to drink and it was soul destroying.

We're both now non drinkers by choice and that's the best thing.

Unfortunately his DM used to scream at him once she found out he wouldn't drink, leading to more trauma. He never gave in.

Interesting about the drinking one. My mum brings wine every time she comes to my house and I am obliged to drink it with her so now she has told my sister I have a drinking problem and she believes it. Projection again.

@Spencer0220 i’m determined to have a good day today. The Hag refuses her care package in a number of interesting ways:

Eye drops for pre-glaucoma - accepts this

New regime of carers dispensing meds as of Tues - accepting this

I think anything that keeps her mortal is acceptable. Hanging on as long as possible to make life shit.

Checking for mouldy food (she stores some food in her spare room) - accepts this, although this is us and the world thinking she's “a filthy bitch”. Classy.

Having her filthy clothes washed - refuses. Wants Mr Monkey to go round and wash her clothes. He won't. She looks appalling.

Water top ups as of today? Jury’s out on that one.

I think she could 1) view it as health and staying alive as ounishment to us so will accept it or 2) not accept water top ups so she will have to be taken to hospital out patients for hydration, probably thinking MM is up for doing the taking her twice a week or more (it will be Age UK) or 3) add it to the list of things to moan about the carers for “the water doesn't taste right.” or “she spilled some.”

OMG your sister! People are really struggling. Where's her empathy? Have a really lovely day out. There's lots of stuff going on there with money.

“My children and husband are an extension of me so you must give them what I deem appropriate.”
“I control the present giving rules”
“I have no empathy for your situation.”
Money is power.

@Genuineweddingone I think as painful as it's going to be to, consider writing a short factual email to your flying monkey DS of “mum probably hasn't shared this with you, but she did recently report me to social services in regard to your nephew. Just leaving it there.”

Try not to engage with your mum over the Xmas gifts. She’ll either turn it into a battle or pity party. Can you send someone to get them or write off the gifts (I know it's expensive) There is a chance of your mum rocking up with gifts near Xmas in a fucked up version of Santa Claus. Santa Claws.

The thread will really help you. Xxx

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau Re your side hustle of running the NHS, it's special measures in 2024 so get on with that root and branches reform you're writing over Xmas. 🤣

Jury’s out on whether he will see her. It's definitely guilt.

Cats are very sensitive. They know who's trouble.

Your poor grandmother. As you and I know, there is a very low bar for capacity so your GM will not be shuffled off somewhere so your mother can rule the roost and extend her empire. But it's a horrible thing to watch. Again, it's empire building with her education. She's occupying your space. Domination.

Take care xxx

@Shortbread49 the criticism is awful. Imposter syndrome and a really harsh inner voice is the result.

@LateNightTalk AWFUL. The game playing is ridiculous. A normal parent would be: “well done on building that good relationship with your step children.”

@Parentalalienation thank God for therapy, but it doesn't solve everything. The brain and body has a long, long memory. Hugs to you.

@user8800 🍾 on its way. Do a quick read up on yellowrocking when dealing with narcs. I did the bright and breezy jolly shit in my 4 min exposure to Hag yesterday - admittedly 4 mins - and I could see the confusion in her vile face as she was ready for a fight. Hope it goes ok.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau that's really thoughtful of you re drinking for me and @user8800 i think there's a lot of dark humour here. I drank shedloads when the Hag was here, but, oddly, I've cut down. Lots of banter between me and @user8800 ❤️

It got to 8.20am this morning before shit began. MM’s mobile is ringing. He is in the shower. He rings Hag back when he's dressed.

“Why didn't you answer your phone?”

“I was in the shower”

Word salad about Fri’s hospital appointment and what time. What time is Mr Monkey & Mummy Monkey picking her up from her lair. The LAST hospital appointment that he will take her to.

“3pm. Your appointment is at 4.30pm.”
“Is that enough time?” I now realise this time crap about her taking control and negating MM being able to organise anything.
“Yes. I am going now. I have to go to work.”
“That’s right, you don't want to talk to your own mother.”
“I have to go to work.”
“I’m not allowed to ring you?”
“I’m at work. Working.”
“Not speaking to your own mother”
Lots more abuse and then slams the phone down.

Me
“Are you sure you want to take her out next week?”

Quick question: what's yellow rock opposed to grey rock?

@MonkeyfromManchester I did email her. I got an email back saying she agrees with my mum. Shes her biggest flying monkey.

I appreciate your concern - really.
But I actually don't drink much at all.
In fact I was TT for many years until last year
I do like a glass of prosecco on special occasions though :)
Alcohol can be a church for many which of course can then lead to reliance
Please don't worry about me x

@Spencer0220 if it makes you feel less guilty I stopped the family bullshit Xmas present buying after 1992. I didn't like the stress, expense or pretense we were a happy family. They are adults and can buy for themselves, I gave my nieces money when they had kids of their own, I add extra for them. I also stopped going to parents for Christmas, I had less stressful places to go which were much more fun.
Me and husband don't do bday/Xmas/anniversary presents we go somewhere or do something, memories last longer than stuff. I think I may be the Grinch 😀

Church???
crutch

@Genuineweddingone gosh sorry I missed this post 😮 wow she is advanced toxic.
I always want to say say wtf are they thinking but I have learned here [the hard way] that all they think about is their own wants & needs to the exclusion of everything/everyone else.
Bin her off she is a total meany pants x
It can only get better for you and you child xx

@LateNightTalk wowzers your mum is super controlling, everyone is collateral damage including your partner and DSC, just awful.
I found 2 mumsnet replys really helpful when faced with unacceptable behavior.

1. NO

The beauty is no is a complete sentence, needs zero explanation. Never make excuses it leaves it open for them to negotiate.

If she throws a tantrum ask what part of NO didn't she understand, that's my favorite.

1. That isn't going to work for me.

If necessary say 'i need to check with my partner' [that drives them crazy as it means he has the control not your mum] also means getting out of a corner to respond calmly later or not at all.

Your mum doesn't get to choose how you spend Christmas day, unless you live with her, she supports you and pays all your bills. It's really hard but practice makes perfect. If you are independent you get to make independent choices.

Wish I had mumsnet 40 years ago.

Thank you so much for the reply! So glad to feel I'm not going bonkers!!

I said no to Boxing Day and got told I'm a fat controller! Explained that it will happen in time but in all honesty I'm about done with the abuse I get if something isn't what they want or expect. I'm constantly blamed for their unhappiness.

No I don't live with them I'm a very independent person, I am suppose to be spending Christmas Day with them despite no invite for my DP.. we shall see how the next couple of days go!

From now on I'm going to end the conversations when they become an argument. For my own mental health.

@LateNightTalk
Fat controller!! Jeez that is how childish your mum is, isn't that a kiddies cartoon? Good plan, decide on the day, you have no obligation to her.
I have said this before regarding arguing with toxic people. It is like wrestling with pigs, it's exhausting, you get covered in shit and the pig enjoys it!
Pointless arguing with loonies x

Well...lots of chat about the high winds, her new high tech flat alarm/contact (which none of them will be able to use imo)

Chat about a couple of people we know.

She wasn't too frosty today.

Another visit tomorrow then I'm done til Xmas day, which means - if true to form - she'll eat then leave 😀

Wishing you all a peaceful Christmas 🎄

@user8800 I also don't drink, my parents were alcoholics.
Lots of people enjoy a drink, good for them.
Not all drinkers are alcoholics or suicidal!
Heavy drinkers don't like to drink alone, misery likes company.

Morning everyone, I used to be on this thread quite a bit under a different account a few years ago.

Coming up to 6 years NC after years of biting my tongue and being as boring as possible to the emotional vampire that birthed me.

The guilt and continual looking over my shoulder has faded but still feel awkward with the ‘are you seeing your parents at Xmas’ small talk from people who don’t know.

Just want to offer some solidarity to those having to deal with this at supposedly a lovely time of year. It’s really crap sometimes and such a hard thing to talk about IRL. It’s a conversation that I definitely try and avoid especially as you always get someone asking if you’ve just tried discussing your issues with your batshit lunatic family member 🙄

Sending you all hugs, unless you hate them, then just a general nod of acceptance instead.

@binkie I think that's a very accurate phrase.

I have alcoholics in my extended family and my brother has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol imo so I'm very aware of things like units consumed/behaviour after drinking etc

That being said, I intend to enjoy my prosecco on Christmas day 😊🎄🥂

@user8800 you go girl, do what makes you happy, God knows you've earned it ❤️
I remember my mum saying years ago I was the fattest person in our family at a hefty 10 stone size 14! .... I said thank you for noticing.
Funnily enough she gained weight after 60 so I returned the compliment.
I had been racing snake skinny all my life! Bitches 😂

Random memory for today:

Breathtakingly weak, socially inept, seethingly frustrated, TV-obsessed, hen-pecked, violent-but-enabled-by-spouse father would be yelling in my face (always, ALWAYS over something trivial - my brother and I were near-'angels' due to the constant fear), and I would flinch because most of the time yelling led to hitting.

He'd then yell at me for flinching and demand to know why I was doing it, as if I was trying to make him feel bad.

If I could push a button and this so-called 'man' would die, I would push it.

@Spencer0220 There's quite some lingo to learn isn't there - I've only just looked up what 'hoovering' is 😀

Thanks for the responses to my post, which was longer than the Odyssey! I’m sorry I haven’t been responding too much myself, I’m really not very well atm and tossing up whether or not to go to hospital - my mother wants me to but while I’m minority very not well (not eating, D&V, pancreas symptoms, bruising at a minor tap, faint, swelling in my extremities and repeated hypos when I’m not even properly diabetic) which would have the advantage of getting me out of Christmas at least if I were admitted but the disadvantage that there doesn’t appear to be any accident or emergency occurring, I’d be low priority and have to shiver on a chair for hours and my mother would probably go through all my stuff while I was away as she always does (problem because I’m autistic and it really distresses me).

Re the drinking, I held off for years, never drinking as an undergraduate and nothing more than the occasional glass of champagne to celebrate a closing at work, because there are more alcoholics than not alcoholics in my family. My mother isn’t one strictly speaking but hides the half bottle of wine she has every night and when I was let out of the psych ward literally her only question for the family therapist was whether she could keep drinking. Then she oddly did keep drinking but pretended she wasn’t. People speak about alcoholics in such derogatory ways but it’s one of the most insidious, harmful and powerful drugs there are. I started down the slippery slope because it got me to sleep when my PTSD was at its worst and thank God the worst it’s ever brought out of me is ill-advised talking back to my mother, mostly I curl up like Velvet and go to sleep. I met other people who had had issues with it at the mental hospital and they ALL had family histories of trauma and abuse.

Re cats, they are interestingly good judges of character but even they vary. Previous cat before Velvet would accept a bit of stroking from me if there was nobody else, but was generally a huge bully who could literally get me hiding behind a curtain and stop me going upstairs if he wanted (yes, I’m a coward but he was a massive and occasionally very aggressive cat who could switch moods on a dime). He loved my mother and sister though! Velvet will happily run around and investigate with my mother, particularly as my mother is generally actually doing something and Velvet is an energetic young cat. However, she generally prefers to sleep on my bed, on my chair and even orients herself towards me when we’re in the big sitting room, and when she’s up and about she keeps coming back to check on me. Animals have much more developed personalities than we think and it’s surprising to me how many pets (am including horses in this) echo their owners or “owners” in a family situation.

Oh goodness. Another essay. My mother started the day by shouting at my father and then just now came in and insisted I get up by throwing the sopping wet dressing gown I used to mop up the spilled water (sorry Velvet) so I could answer the door to pick up my dad’s Christmas present when it’s delivered. It’s nearly two years to the day since I tried to get up, fainted, crushed one of my ribs and ended up in hospital with a collapsed lung and I was clearly having a hypo when she came in (drowsy, shivering and sweating) AND my dad literally swatted me out of the way last time I went to get a delivery but OK. Shaping up to be a great Christmas.

sorry again for the essay, and sending as many good thoughts as I can to you all even though I’m really sorry, as I’m feeling off and not really qualified to advise I’m not providing specific responses. cx

@NeedAnUpgrade The people I've learned to steer clear of are those patronising fools who genuinely believe the five minutes they've just spent intrusively dragging fifty years'-worth of observation/conclusions/decisions out of me qualify them to then 'correct' me.