December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@Tanaphiru that's because it is the whole family. Family lies, dynamics and assigned roles we are given to keep the boat afloat, everyone is complicit.

Great analogy on here somewhere about boat rocking, short version crazy narc parent rocks boat, enabler steady's boat, crazy keeps jumping around so enabler uses the children to do the steadying, it is a lifelong commitment and hard work.
Us enlightened ones think sod that I'm getting out the boat, rest of family go mad, hate the enlightened one and demand they get back in the boat to make their life easier or be ostracized. The moral is ostracized is better than being in a boat with crazy people.

I used to steady the boat of my own accord, particularly when my dad was living abroad first for weeks, then months, then years at a time (for work). I guess I think I have it difficult now but I have so many memories from then of being involved in three-way conversations by phone where I painstakingly edited what my mother said when relaying it to make it less nasty, she used to say I’d make a good diplomat. The weird thing is my dad doesn’t really attempt to stop the boat rocking, it just is water off a duck’s back so he doesn’t really care.

@BlastAroundTheOutside yeah they know exactly what they are doing, my personal highly intelligent answer to their batshit behavior is they are just bastards. They can't keep the nice persona up for long, just long enough to fool outsiders because outsiders don't have to put up with their shit. I bet your mum doesn't have any real friends either, my mum didn't.
Stick it to the man ✊ let them do their own shopping they didnt appreciate you doing it before. Stand up to them, I am standing right behind you. They don't deserve us and we deserved so much better than them.

I used to keep our family boat steady but at massive cost to my mental health and wellbeing. It was only when I made an active choice to get out of the boat and go no contact with pretty much all my family that I realised the extent of it.

@MonkeyfromManchester very pleased to read that the ceremonial handing over of the water bottle has been done and hoping that's the last time you need to interact with her. I had a right chuckle at the thought of her sitting on that awful chair with her hair done, thank you to whoever it was who said that!

Sitting quietly in silence and just reading the thread is a great ‘comfort’….as ridiculous as that may sound. Everyone of us on here deserves comfort, cosy, warm feelings as our lives all have mange challenges.

Definitely. None of my siblings currently speak to me (I have lots of them full and half), I’m on the ignore list.

i am learning to try to be at peace with it now so it’s not a negative in my life but it’s so hard.

@Genuineweddingone what a dreadful thing for your mum to have done. The moment they do things to impact our child it takes it to another level entirely.

try not to worry. SS will soon realise it was all fabricated and you are a great parent. You might nee to put paperwork in place at school so you are the only person able to collect your child, just in case she does something else involving school and child.

also if your mother walked out on your father and you kids for 40years I’d not even welcome her back into my life.

Harsh I know but a ‘parent” needs to earn that title by being there for you, loving you and doing all the daily mundane things. As you will be doing for your DC.

@Airyfairy99 I think I might have directed you to this thread for some help? Did you post elsewhere about your daughter seeing her dad and hoe to help protect her?

A lot of people in here will be able to help in different ways but I think the wording may have come across wrong. Many of us are used to terrible family dynamics and parents who have wrecked our lives so we react in different ways to try to protect ourselves. Some of us have PTSD and other MH problems relating to our childhoods, etc.

In your case are you the parent? Sadly your children’s eyes are going to have to be widely opened to their other parents behaviour. My own father did some truly shocking and unforgivable things (younger women and other types of terrible behaviour dealing with his own demons whilst my parents divorced, I can’t give details as it’s far too outing) but he’s still my dad and all these years later I love him regardless, just can’t forgive and forget that’s all. I was a teenager at the time as well, as well as realising it had really been like this for years of my childhood.

How you help to protect them I’m unsure about as not been in that situation myself. There maybe someone else on here who can help though.

The only thing I can suggest is just carry on being their mum as you always have been. Love them be there for them and in time they will see you doing this. I did not have that support from either of my parents through the stuff above and my life nosedived so very badly. I had no loving parents checking I’m ok and I was not ok. I mixed with all the wrong sort of men, I was beaten by bfs, I was attacked by a stranger, I was homeless and so on and then ended up in a very violent DV groomed ‘relationship’ for a decade. All as a young teenager needing some support so my advice is make sure they know you love them.

Exactly!! And thank you!!

I've just spent an hour trying to understand a google map route and where to change the bus.

I never used a bus (besides on holiday) until I moved here with hubby.

It almost left me in tears. I'm 36 in January and I can't understand a bloody google map of directions!!

Literally my parents did nothing like life skills to help me because I'd always have carers to drive me. They taught me how to manage carers, as slaves, but that was about it.

I ALWAYS got into an argument with them because I'd do whatever I could to make my carers lives easier. I don't mean I was a pushover, I mean things like lining breaks up to suit their bus preferences, or allowing them an extra 10 minutes so they could phone their daughter at her bedtime.

You know, treating my carers like HUMANS. And you know what? Some of them are my very best friends now. Because when they quit, they wanted to stay in touch.

And when hubby moved in with me my mother was appalled that he did the cleaning so that the carer didn't have to sort his mess.

Now, we don't have carers and he just gets on with it. But you know, because he's a MAN, I should have carers to do the waiting on him hand and foot.

He'd HATE that.

Oh @binkie163 you had me howling.

Did the dentist give you enough happy gas that you could have forgotten him reattaching it?!

Welcome @Tanaphiru

Yes, it's never the most obvious one

@BlastAroundTheOutside certainly! A symbol cane is exactly like the long white cane that the blind use.

However, it's one third of the size and not designed to touch the floor. You carry it diagonally in front of your body to show that you have limited visibility.

In DH's case he's blind in 1 eye and limited vision in the other. So his spacial awareness is nonexistent. He uses it to show that he can't see.

People have been excellent. Bus drivers have told him where his stop is, moved the bus to a better position for him to get off etc. And locally, people stop their cars to help him cross the road.

It's been an absolute game changer for him leaving the flat.

@REP22Imperial Death March. Recreational Body Parts. Screaming with laughter here.

That's so common in the workplace…finally, when management realise they have a Toxic Twat (TM) they don't give the person the shove, no, they move them to another department so they spread more evil and fuck more people over or take person management off them but still pay them the same. FFS.

That’s the nicest offer of the Ubering of a tiger to Manchester. 🐅 yes, I'd gladly take you up on that offer.

@user8800 NOTHING as good as shouting at a panto. Totally liberating. I work with some very fancy ‘serious’ pants actors in my work life, but Christ alive, I LOVE PANTO. I love the utter batshit of it. I remember having to try and explain to a gorgeous Chinese intern what it was about. She was still baffled a year later.

Classic party memory. I don't know why I'm asking the question as, y’know, narcissists and self-awareness, but did she realise what a freak she looked like? Christ, the FLOUNCING.

There's a crate of gin dispatched to you from Monkey Towers.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau the BLAMING. Celine, you strike me as a super smart woman, but I didn't know you ran the NHS in the side so your mum can blame you about its services. Incredibly talented.

@binkie163 NO ONE here is fooled about the crown story. You were only going back to Play Hunt The Crown with LE DASHING FRENCH DENTIST. 🇫🇷

The comment “they are just bastards” is going into my counselling lexicon if I ever got back into training.

@Tanaphiru welcome to the gang. It's very common, I'd say. It's the whole dynamic and the different roles that people play to prop the whole toxic ediface up.

Mr Monkey for a long time saw Toxic Brother (abusive, PULLED A GUN ON MM, constantly put him down) as the issue in his toxic family then the scales fell from his eyes and he realised his mother is the key issue, now he's seeing Slave Son as another toxic for the violence SS dealt to a frightened little boy.

You take care.

@Parentalalienation all the pennies start dropping, don't they?

@BlastAroundTheOutside hurrah on withdrawing Personal Shopping services. They don't actually believe us when we get assertive. Friends? FFS. BATSHIT.

@Tbry it’s kept me sane this board. I first discovered it in 2020 and it’s saved my relationship with Mr Monkey as I really believe we will have split because of his toxic mother The Hag. So many stories with life lessons (but hideous amounts of pain) has caused so many pennies to drop for me. In turn, MM has gone into therapy and is extricating himself from the disaster area. I hear you about making the right choices about binning the toxics, but it IS hard.

Sad Mr Monkey today. He's feeling incredibly sad about his ‘mother’ and the way her life has ended. To my mind, it was inevitable that she would make her later years into a martyred shit fest.

He's talking “maybe, I should come back to Manchester next week and take her out for lunch” I'm not saying much beyound

“Are you sure? Taking her out will involve the same abuse, perhaps, but probably not moderated by her being in a public place (do you want that humiliation?). She will moan about having nothing to wear, you will feel guilty about

Loops. Pressed too soon.

“You will feel guilty about the filthy nature of her clothes - despite the care package including laundry, she refuses - she will guilt trip you to the ends of the earth when it's time to leave.”

I get it. I get the power of guilt and the control the fucking witch has. I'm not going to argue with him about it.

I just said. “Guilt isn't a positive emotion in this context. Your mother has created this life. Don't tell her about that option until you see how her behaviour pans out.”

He is, however, not doing hospital appointments with her in the New Year. That's Age UK.

He’s still in many ways a frightened little boy. So sad.

For me? Screaming at me “she's not my family” and abusing me in her hospital ward two weeks ago was the absolute final straw for me. No coming back from that. I sincerely hope the next time I see her is in a hearse.

Morning monkey, hope you have a good day!!

Why does The Hag refuse her care package?

Sorry if this has been covered before.,, newbie.

The personal shopping thing struck a chord with me.

DSis is pissed because I set a £20 limit on each of her 5 kids because our rent went up 21%. Not to mention bills.

Turns out she is pissed because despite us suggesting cheap items we wanted, given what she's told me she bought DH, it's considerably more than we spent.

I refuse to feel guilty. We didn't ask for all this and we told her what we could afford.

But, yet again, she refuses to believe we are on a shoestring budget scraping by.

This day out today comes from Vinted sales and is our first non-essential outing in over 18 months. But I feel like we should cancel because she expects more of us.

We're going on our outing and I'm hoping not to feel bad.

@BlastAroundTheOutside I never thought of that but it makes sense. We had had a lovely day out the week before, I brought her away for a day feeling sorry for her cos shes alone now (although as my therapist says there is a reason she is alone) and we had a few drinks and facetimed my sister who couldnt talk to us as she doesnt drink and doesnt like looking at ppl drinking apparently (unless shes drinking i guess) and then the following day my mother and sister facetimed while i was gone home and then the day after she made the call so I just dont know what they talk about but in trying flying monkey style i have had an email this week from sister telling me my mother is 'exhausted and stressed' and doesnt need me causing problems. Now the fact i caused none of this has escaped her but she doesnt even live on teh same continent and has the balls to tell me all the wrong doings i do despite seeing me maybe once a year. My mother has her brainwashed. How these people live with themselves i do not know.

I have breathed a sigh of relief finding this thread I just want to say and while it is horrible what we have all been put through and are still being put through it is good to have someone to understand. I have read other posts I just have not got the mental capacity to comment on them at the moment but bare with me and I will get involved in other peoples lives and not just spout about mine but it is just so raw right now for me. This thread may just save me x

@Genuineweddingone don't you worry, we all just share as needed and comment if and when we feel able. No need to feel obliged to do anything here. That's the beauty of it.

@MonkeyfromManchester well, despite the NHS only being the size of a small country in terms of employment and GDP, I still haven’t managed to make it work flawlessly smoothly. Mea culpa. Perhaps I should have studied business or medicine :(

Guilt and shame are really complex and with people like MM who have grown up with the Hag’s level of (just going to say it) bullshit they can intermingle, so he feels he’s useless and only valued by what he can do. I have the same thing - I bake for my closest friend and despite our thirteen year friendship feel intensely useless if I turn up without a baked present and genuinely surprised if she’s still pleased to see me. We never stop seeking approval from our parents which is one of the reasons NC is so hard. I definitely don’t think he SHOULD ever spend time with his mother again (I use “mother” because we emerged from their wombs but it’s much more formal and distancing than a diminutive like mum or maman, which my mother prefers because she is pretentious and likes to think she can speak French, she can’t, it makes me wince as someone lucky enough to be bilingual and I just won’t speak it around her or will put on a very flattened, anglicised accent. That’s about as far as I ever get with rebellion) but it does show a form of bravery, strength and compassion that he’s still offering to go - even if it’s motivated by fear, it takes strength to walk out to the gallows with your head high.

Several events here at chateau Cecile. Woken up this morning by shouting, luckily far enough away that I didn’t know what it was about but Velvet, who was sleeping on my bed and had happily snoozed through me spilling a glass of water on her and then towelling her with a dressing gown and I were both really tensely listening. She usually runs towards any voices etc to play or be fed but she stayed there immobile until it stopped. The reason this counts as an event is that my mother did endless Mea culpas about using the hoover yesterday (poor Velvet! She was hiding!) when Velvet actually just came and played around on my bed in an unstressed way before falling asleep. When it comes to not stressing out your daughter and your cat if there’s a chance to take out your frustration on your husband by shouting quite nastily, though, who cares?

Reason for said frustration is the Great House Drama. I realise I haven’t given background details but basically it’s about my grandmother selling her house, which my mother wants to buy cheaply, for money for care which my grandfather is already using and she may need imminently (just had a mastectomy ffs). I’m not going into the details of my mother (who has a sister with an equal moral right to inherit) being entitled and bending everyone’s ears about it for NINE MONTHS, but for the whole of all that time she’s just been saying my grandmother is insane, making bad decisions and has incipient Alzheimer’s, while I tune out a bit except to interject that my nana is doing what my grandad tells her as she has done for the entirety of their sixty year marriage - I wouldn’t say my grandad is abusive but he’s definitely quite domineering and expects to be waited on hand and foot, it’s a classic sixties marriage really. She has now discovered… safeguarding! Or at least not discovered it, she discovered it when she opened a letter from my psychiatrist which stated I was under the safeguarding team (due to concerns about DV after a hospital visit, thank god it didn’t say that in the letter) but she’s now discussing it with my grandmother’s GP, the manager of grandad’s care home and probably the buyers of the house for all I know. She doesn’t ever really attempt to cover up her motives, and it’s incredibly transparent that she actually cares about the house not my grandmother. Although that house is more my childhood home than anywhere else - we moved every two years - I do not want her to get it and corrupt yet another safe space.

This is turning into bloody War and Peace so I’m going to make this one short. Other event is that my mother, who applied to the university I was studying at on the strength of references from people she had slept with, for a much easier subject than she knew it was my burning ambition to pursue, had it paid for by her husband, twisted her PhD thesis so it became essentially identical to the Masters I was writing, using all my ideas and getting me to teach her (I’ve had to drop out both because of this and because all the other shit going on has aggravated my MH so badly), getting countless extensions because she’s constantly “saving my life” by coming in and shouting at me with yes, the occasional drive to the hospital but never a lifesaving one, when my lung was collapsed she just took a picture of me naked and went off to do her University rowing, has now got a prestigious job in this city where I wanted to make my life, with academics that I had connections with, that is apparently going to allow her frequent-ish contact with the King. I know this is envious and nasty (I got in for a PhD four times but could never pay it because I was paying rent so I didn’t have to live with her and my dad wasn’t paying for me, lol) but the pencil thing was a tiny example and this is a HUGE thing for me. I have a friend who says I was born for academia and I’ve wanted to do it for years and now it feels corrupted and rotten and I don’t have any motivation even if I do get better, while my mother is doing this. At the rate I’m going I will be on and off psych wards my whole life or dead before I’m 40. Oh, and she’s kindly told most of the staff who taught me that I’m a terrible alcoholic when I’m not drinking! She firmly informed me yesterday that I had been and that was why I felt sick. I was faint and dizzy and started to go into blackout before I remembered blood sugar and it was just over 2. Emergency toffees! But no, I’m sure it was alcohol.

GRRRRR. Sorry about the HUGE rant everyone.

Thank you Atila for doing this thread it really helps. As a child I knew something was really wrong but as you have no comparison you think it is normal and then you see other people with mums who are nice to them and want to speak to them and spend time with them and you wonder why yours doesn’t. But then you see your mum being nice to other people just not you and it is so confusing. My teachers at school were more interested in me and noticed when there was a problem , compared to my own parents.
they think they are perfect and how dare anyone criticise them
even though they have spent their whole life criticising everyone else. I have my own children now and I can’t comprehend ever saying to them things that were said to me (wouldn’t even think them never mind say to a child) thanks x

Big hugs @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau

Your mother sounds utterly mad

A week ago (after my mother made that call but before I knew about it) she was in my house and we were playing happy families. I gave her my sons stocking fillers and asked her to put them in the boot of her car so he wouldnt find them. I had to text her last night and say I was going to work which is near her and would leave the car open if she can leave the box of bits in it. We will see now if she will or not. Nothing expensive just funny little things I know he will like and would not be able to order again on time but we shall see if shes still being petty or has started licking her wounds.

@Parentalalienation steadying the boat takes so much time and energy that we can't see anything else but deep down know something is not normal.
The crazy person is addicted to the boat rocking because it means the focus and attention is always on them.
Some people never get out the boat they are afraid of drowning. Sod that I would rather drown.

Anybody else just hate Christmas because of the drama-

Me and DSC have finally bonded and it's great, but my DM has decided that it's not fair and can't understand why they're not involved. Myself and DP have DSC for 2 days every 2 weeks and it's took a lot of time to get to this point. Forever being made to feel guilty for having a relationship with DSC and building my own dynamics and when explaining this to DM that it will happen but just not yet I am called all sorts of names. Invited them to spend time with me and DP Christmas Eve but it was a no and told to go off and enjoy my other family and hope it chokes me!

I am spending time away from DP Christmas Day because they do not wish to invite them and I wouldn't leave them alone! We are seeing DSC Boxing Day only.

I cannot win and I can't take the nasty words that come with it much more.

Anybody else want new year to hurry?!

I agree @Tbry knowing that there are others who get it means an awful lot.
Bracing for the next few days, especially as we are at the in-laws and I have to work overtime to remind my trauma brain instinct that my mother-in-law is genuine and there's no agenda, she's just a nice person. It hurts though seeing what adult parent child relationships can be like. The child in me wants to know why my family isn't like that and that I must have been a Very Bad Child Indeed for my upbringing to be like it was. And that's after a decade of treatment and therapy. Being able to write that here helps.