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Original poster

Asking for a friend

65 replies

Hei253 · 20/10/2023 14:35

So I'm posting on behalf of my friend (if you've seen any of my other posts it's the same friend I'm referring to - let's call him Karl(40) to protect identities I'll change all the names involved.
As a bit of background for you all, Karl met Tori(54) about 18 years ago when he was in his early 20's and not innocent but maybe a little naive. It was pretty much love at first sight for Karl as Tori is a good looking woman with curves in all the right places and always has men after her. Anyway they got into a relationship which lasted about 4-5 years. The relationship was apparently very toxic back then as Tori is a narcissist and only cares about herself. She used to make Karl feel worthless as she never cared about his feelings and how she made him feel. Tori was only happy when Karl was all over her in the bedroom or talking about her. She would put him down and argue with him all the time making out that it was his faults that caused the arguments. The relationship was already on the rocks when Tori fell pregnant with their daughter Katie (now 14). Now we could argue that Karl should've been more careful at the time but Tori was on the pill allegedly and Karl saw the pregnancy as a total betrayal of his trust that Tori would get pregnant and have a baby to him without his consent but let's not dwell on that part please as that's not my point. It's simply there to emphasise the feelings Karl has towards Tori.
Needless to say, Karl became a great dad to Katie and is a huge part of her life but the relationship never survived that hurt he felt on top of the emotional abuse he had suffered over those few years whilst they were together.
It was Tori who finally ended the relationship after seeing a text message from another woman on Karl's phone. He had matched with a woman online who he was talking to (nothing more) mainly because he felt he couldn't talk to Tori without an argument. He would never have actually cheated on Tori as all of those needs were being met, he just felt like he had lost himself and this other woman was someone to listen to him.
Anyway, over the years Karl has been a great dad but has always resented Tori for her narcissistic behaviour as this was ultimately the problem with their relationship and what has meant he couldn't give Katie the family life he always wanted her to have. However he has never been able to get over Tori completely and move on to find someone else, someone who he truly deserves.
Over the years whenever Tori has wanted an ego boost she would be sexting Karl knowing she still has this power over him but on the whole they haven't really ever got back together.
Fast forward 13-14 years and they are starting a relationship with each other again. This time is way more serious than it's ever been in the last 13 years and after just a month Tori is apparently head over heels in love with him again, but nothing has actually changed! Karl has said how he doesn't even like her as a person because she can be so hurtful and nasty, he feels he can't be himself around her as he's constantly walking on eggshells trying not to set off another argument. He says he's still in love with her but he has become mostly indifferent to her. They have just had three days away together and quite frankly I think he'd rather have gone with me! He doesn't miss her when they're not together, he isn't as upset by her words as much, almost as though he's become numb to her. He does still feel attracted to her sexually and says he loves her but it seems like he isn't 'in love' with her anymore and only actually loves the idea of what it could be like if she was nice all of the time rather than just 5% of the time.
Karl is well aware that this relationship isn't great and I think he even knows it won't last but he wants to be there and be closer to his daughter - especially as she gets older and she is gaining her own independence he feels like he's losing her more. That's the main reason he is wanting to be with Tori again as he's said to me that if it wasn't for Katie he would've walked away from Tori years ago and never looked back.
Do you guys think that Tori will ever change her behaviour? Is Karl right to settle for a relationship with Tori knowing how toxic it is just for the sake of giving his daughter a better life? I know that's a tough one but what kind of message is it giving to Katie at an impressionable age that is ok to put up with an unhealthy relationship?
Please let me know your thoughts 🙏

OP posts:
beenwhereyouare · 20/10/2023 14:57

They may not have been a good match, but this:

"It was Tori who finally ended the relationship after seeing a text message from another woman on Karl's phone. He had matched with a woman online who he was talking to (nothing more) mainly because he felt he couldn't talk to Tori without an argument. He would never have actually cheated on Tori as all of those needs were being met, he just felt like he had lost himself and this other woman was someone to listen to him."

That's a form of cheating. And he blamed Tori for his own bad behavior. It sounds a lot like the beginning of the script.

If he was unhappy enough to seek out and begin an online relationship, he should have done so without sneaking around. End things first. Always.

LucyEwing · 20/10/2023 15:07

It was Tori who finally ended the relationship after seeing a text message from another woman on Karl's phone.

I don't blame her.

Why is it that the women are always toxic and narcissistic in these situations?
He sounds like a tool.

MetalFences · 20/10/2023 15:11

he's said to me that if it wasn't for Katie he would've walked away from Tori years ago and never looked back.
Yes, this sounds completely believable. Confused

Do you guys think that Tori will ever change her behaviour? The behaviour he's telling you about do you mean?

Is Karl right to settle for a relationship with Tori knowing how toxic it is just for the sake of giving his daughter a better life? Well, financially he will be better off. And things will be easier for him. He won't have to look after himself or his child on his own.

I know that's a tough one but what kind of message is it giving to Katie at an impressionable age that is ok to put up with an unhealthy relationship? I don't believe that people should stay in relationships for the sake of a child but I'm not sure that this is what is happening here.

kittie01 · 20/10/2023 15:14

They both sound awful. He cheated by texting another woman, not sure if I read right not another woman on a dating app. Best separated,

pinkyredrose · 20/10/2023 15:22

Karl isn't exactly lily white. Blaming her for the pregnancy, insinuating that she didn't take the pill, going on dating sites while they were together.

Tori was only happy when Karl was all over her in the bedroom or talking about her. Yet he went back for more.

Needless to say, Karl became a great dad to Katie The wronged 'great dad' strikes again.

I think Karl is an idiot to carry on seeing someone he obviously dislikes. I wonder how much of a narcissist Tori really is given that Narcissism is a complex mental condition that needs to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist plus you've only got Karls word that she is.

itsgoingtobeabumpyride · 20/10/2023 15:24

Christ, the air of misogyny is practically suffocating.
Yep it's all Tori's fault, she is a narcissist. 🙄
Tori argued with him (takes two to argue)
Tori dumped him because he was texting another woman, not Karl's fault though.
Tori (horror of horrors) trapped him by getting pregnant, again nothing to do with Karl's input (excuse the pun).
Tori was only happy if he was all over her in the bedroom (poor Karl)
Karl only wants to be with her because of their DD, she's 14, he could have come to that decision anytime in the last 14 yrs.
I can't even be bothered to address the rest of the nonsense.
You sound like a good friend to Karl, he's lucky to have you, naive as you are.
If Tori had any sense she'd run for the hills

Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 15:35

beenwhereyouare · 20/10/2023 14:57

They may not have been a good match, but this:

"It was Tori who finally ended the relationship after seeing a text message from another woman on Karl's phone. He had matched with a woman online who he was talking to (nothing more) mainly because he felt he couldn't talk to Tori without an argument. He would never have actually cheated on Tori as all of those needs were being met, he just felt like he had lost himself and this other woman was someone to listen to him."

That's a form of cheating. And he blamed Tori for his own bad behavior. It sounds a lot like the beginning of the script.

If he was unhappy enough to seek out and begin an online relationship, he should have done so without sneaking around. End things first. Always.

Totally agree with you that he was in the wrong to do what he did but he says he was only talking to this woman because he felt worthless in his relationship and craved someone who would listen to him and how he felt. Went the wrong way about it I agree.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 15:39

LucyEwing · 20/10/2023 15:07

It was Tori who finally ended the relationship after seeing a text message from another woman on Karl's phone.

I don't blame her.

Why is it that the women are always toxic and narcissistic in these situations?
He sounds like a tool.

Yeah I agree she had every right to end the relationship at that point but in this situation he may not be completely innocent but she is definitely toxic. Even other friends have said 'good luck' to Karl as they know what she is like and how they aren't well matched at all. Even her friends constantly fall out with her because of her behaviour.

OP posts:
Spinet · 20/10/2023 15:40

I mean... what's it to you?

Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 15:46

MetalFences · 20/10/2023 15:11

he's said to me that if it wasn't for Katie he would've walked away from Tori years ago and never looked back.
Yes, this sounds completely believable. Confused

Do you guys think that Tori will ever change her behaviour? The behaviour he's telling you about do you mean?

Is Karl right to settle for a relationship with Tori knowing how toxic it is just for the sake of giving his daughter a better life? Well, financially he will be better off. And things will be easier for him. He won't have to look after himself or his child on his own.

I know that's a tough one but what kind of message is it giving to Katie at an impressionable age that is ok to put up with an unhealthy relationship? I don't believe that people should stay in relationships for the sake of a child but I'm not sure that this is what is happening here.

I do believe he would've walked away if it wasn't for DD. He can't stand her as a person, everyone knows they're not compatible so yes I do believe he would've walked away. That said he still loves her and has never been able to move on and find love with anyone else.
I seriously doubt how much he is still in love with her though when he tells me how much he resents her and will never get over the way she treated him emotionally. I think he's in love with the idea of a happy family.

OP posts:
Dacadactyl · 20/10/2023 15:48

As a PP said, what's it to you?!

And your writing style is ridiculous BTW.

fuckssaaaaake · 20/10/2023 15:50

With kindness; you need to get a hobby or fill your life with something else

Tinklyheadtilt · 20/10/2023 15:51

If he can't stand her, why are they getting back together?

The poor daughter in all this... Also you are really making Karl to be a saint here but a) sex protection is a joint responsibility so don't know how he has any right to feel 'betrayed' and b) he has cheated on her. It hasn't got to physical (he says) but the fact he signed up to a site and matched someone takes so e effort.

I normally stick up for men here when I feel there is hypocrisy but I think the blam e here is 50:50 minimum. You ask about changing her behaviour but what about him?

StrictlyJowita · 20/10/2023 15:53

I don't believe for one moment he 'can't stand her as a person' but he is going to have a relationship with her anyway.

Men don't tend to be that selfless as a rule - and Karl, seems particularly self involved.

He is quite clearly a bog old liar. He's lied to his wife and he is lying to you.

Saying his wife is a toxic narcissist is laughable. That's what they all say.

Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 15:53

pinkyredrose · 20/10/2023 15:22

Karl isn't exactly lily white. Blaming her for the pregnancy, insinuating that she didn't take the pill, going on dating sites while they were together.

Tori was only happy when Karl was all over her in the bedroom or talking about her. Yet he went back for more.

Needless to say, Karl became a great dad to Katie The wronged 'great dad' strikes again.

I think Karl is an idiot to carry on seeing someone he obviously dislikes. I wonder how much of a narcissist Tori really is given that Narcissism is a complex mental condition that needs to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist plus you've only got Karls word that she is.

Karl isn't lily white in the situation either. He does feel like she trapped him by getting pregnant but then he should've been more careful.
Obviously it's difficult to diagnose exactly how much of a narcissist Tori actually is given she's never had an assessment by a psychiatrist, but how much selfish behaviour does it take? It seems it's not only Karl who sees this behaviour in her as others have commented on it too.

OP posts:
MetalFences · 20/10/2023 15:56

Karl isn't lily white in the situation either. He does feel like she trapped him by getting pregnant but then he should've been more careful.

I'm agog at this. How can you fall for this?

Obviously it's difficult to diagnose exactly how much of a narcissist Tori actually is given she's never had an assessment by a psychiatrist, but how much selfish behaviour does it take? It seems it's not only Karl who sees this behaviour in her as others have commented on it too.

Do you actually know this woman? Why hasn't he taken her to court and got full custody of she's such a terrible mother and person? Why would he want his child involved with a toxic narcissist.

Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 16:14

itsgoingtobeabumpyride · 20/10/2023 15:24

Christ, the air of misogyny is practically suffocating.
Yep it's all Tori's fault, she is a narcissist. 🙄
Tori argued with him (takes two to argue)
Tori dumped him because he was texting another woman, not Karl's fault though.
Tori (horror of horrors) trapped him by getting pregnant, again nothing to do with Karl's input (excuse the pun).
Tori was only happy if he was all over her in the bedroom (poor Karl)
Karl only wants to be with her because of their DD, she's 14, he could have come to that decision anytime in the last 14 yrs.
I can't even be bothered to address the rest of the nonsense.
You sound like a good friend to Karl, he's lucky to have you, naive as you are.
If Tori had any sense she'd run for the hills

I'll start of by pointing out that I'm a female friend of Karl's and we've been friends over 4 years now. We get along as we're practically the male/female version of each other in many ways.
Tori does start the arguments. Karl does not like to argue and has always spoken calmly and quietly. I've only ever known him raise his voice slightly once in over 4 years. He would rather walk away and let things calm down that get into an argument. Even Katie says how her mum is always arguing with people and flies off the handle.
Karl owns up to his behaviour of messaging and chatting to another woman as being something he shouldn't have done but Tori doesn't see she did anything wrong in their relationship. She doesn't see that by putting him down constantly, not valuing him as a person and generally being emotionally abusive towards him that that played a part in the breakdown of their relationship.
Karl did have some input in Tori getting pregnant and should've been more careful.
He did enjoy the sexual side of their relationship of course he did, that was the only time she made him feel like a man but towards the end it was more upsetting to Karl because having sex with Tori was so closely linked to his feelings of being hurt by her. And they have tried to get back together a few times in the last 14 years but it never went very far as she prefers a man who can take her on loads of dates and pay for everything and keep up with her luxury social life which Karl is really not into. Plus the fact that he's never been able to put the pain of the past behind him so she's then got bored or whatever and moved on with someone else. This time is different in that they seem to be more serious about trying the relationship again.
I am a good friend to Karl and you may think that I am naive but I do call him out when I think he's wrong and I do know when he's lying to me and what about.

OP posts:
MetalFences · 20/10/2023 16:17

Karl did have some input in Tori getting pregnant and should've been more careful
Pah!

LucyEwing · 20/10/2023 16:22

I don't know what you want here. Really I don't.

It's quite obvious that you think this man is the bees-knees and that he got himself in to a bad situation through little to no fault of his own.

You thought he was going to be with you and now you are surprised because he's going back to his wife. Even though he doesn't want to, as he's such a top bloke.

You have written about him in a biased way, from your point of view and you think he's a good guy. But even with this bias written in, he comes off as a dick.

I would say, go for it. Be with him, as it seems that's what you want. But he doesn't want that so you can't.

Original poster
Hei253 · 20/10/2023 16:29

MetalFences · 20/10/2023 15:56

Karl isn't lily white in the situation either. He does feel like she trapped him by getting pregnant but then he should've been more careful.

I'm agog at this. How can you fall for this?

Obviously it's difficult to diagnose exactly how much of a narcissist Tori actually is given she's never had an assessment by a psychiatrist, but how much selfish behaviour does it take? It seems it's not only Karl who sees this behaviour in her as others have commented on it too.

Do you actually know this woman? Why hasn't he taken her to court and got full custody of she's such a terrible mother and person? Why would he want his child involved with a toxic narcissist.

I don't know her personally but I do know Karl, Katie, and Tori's sister.
Karl did go through mediation when they first split up but he felt that everything was weighted in Tori's favour as the mother and so, seeing as she was saying to him that he could see Katie as much as he wanted he chose not to fight that. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and who knows how different things would've been if he had've taken her to court for full custody. But Karl has very set ideas that children should have both their parents and they should be together for the best interests of the child. He's getting back together with Tori because he hasn't found love with anyone else and because he wants to be there for his DD and whilst he is now more older and more likely to stand up for himself with her he knows he's settling for someone who makes him unhappy as a whole just so he can make his daughter happy.

OP posts:
BMW6 · 20/10/2023 16:29

But.........WTF are you so emotionally invested in this drama?

OK, he's been a friend for 4 years, but really........so what?

This shitshow has been going for 18 years!

If "Karl" keeps going on about it tell him to STFU and change the record!

EvenMoreFuriousVexation · 20/10/2023 16:42

Tell him "She's not the only woman in the world Karl"
Tip him a big wink and flash your cleavage at him.
Should get the result you very clearly want
🍆 🍆 🍆

pinkyredrose · 20/10/2023 17:43

He did enjoy the sexual side of their relationship of course he did, that was the only time she made him feel like a man but towards the end it was more upsetting to Karl because having sex with Tori was so closely linked to his feelings of being hurt by her.

You actually believe this crap? He doesn't like her, seemingly never did but trusted her to take the pill so that he could get his rocks off without a condom.

Yes he's playing the victim.

Listen, the women here have all had experience of men like Karl and can see through this nonsense straight away.

Starting to feel quite sorry for Tori having this idiot turn up and use her for sex again just like he did last time.

pinkyredrose · 20/10/2023 18:08

He's getting back together with Tori because he hasn't found love with anyone else and because he wants to be there for his DD and whilst he is now more older and more likely to stand up for himself with her he knows he's settling for someone who makes him unhappy as a whole just so he can make his daughter happy.

Hahahahaha!!!😂

Neilsfavouritechilli · 20/10/2023 18:20

Aye, you clearly want him (and have possibly had sex with him) but he's he's binned you off for his ex. Leave it there, let him make a mess of his life and move on with yours. You're worth a lot more than that hot mess of a man.

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