Trapped in a gilded cage?

[auberginefortea]

Not sure if this the right forum, as this crosses family, work, and lifestyle, but here goes.

DW and I have been together 10 years, and about 7 years ago, in our early 30s, we moved overseas for DW's work. She's on a career track which means that she may be expected to move internationally, from time to time (think 5 years, with time spent in company HQ in Europe. We have 2 young children.

First, we lived in Europe for 5 years, and then 2 years ago we moved to East Asia. I've worked in both locations remotely for an organisation.

I'm feeling that this is starting to get stale. This week, our kids are ill, and DW is away on a business trip, and I question if this is the life we want to live. We have domestic help, but we don't see family or long-term friends (we've made new friends / acquaintances here). Our home is nice, but it's not really our home, and my career isn't going anywhere.

What makes it harder is that my parents look at it and have also become (to me at least) vocal - why, with two young children are we living like this? And I find it hard to defend.

There are some benefits. We're reasonably financially secure with savings (and I know we're lucky to have that). We can pay for people to do a lot of the domestic tasks. We've experienced things and visited places that, I suppose, make us worldly. And our childcare is affordable (again, from reading MN, I know that's not always the case). But it feels like a bit of a gilded cage.

But when I read about what makes a happy life (I think family, friends, meaningful work), I lack those things.

The big problem is that if we were really to act on this, it would mean my DW giving up her career (which she's worked hard for) and I want to support her. And to be honest, I'm not sure she'd give up her career (as it is) for me (although there are other things she could do, surely).

One last complication is that DW and I are from different countries (UK, Sweden), so neither of us would ever be truly home - although close enough for us to have a home and at least we could visit family a few times a year.

To mix a few metaphors and cliches, it feels like a gilded cage, from which we've put ourselves in checkmate. What would you do?

OP - I think what you are describing is a common dilemma usually faced by women married to men with international careers. Societally - they have been dealing with it by adjusting and focusing on the children and putting their careers second.

I do think you are being really unfair here - your W's career ambition and track is not NEW news. You have been together for 10 years.

I am also going to guess that she is the main breadwinner in the family - and is also on an expatriate package that is making your life even more comfortable.

This is the life you signed up for. But you don't seem to have made the best of it - by no means. Yes - you are not living next to family - but your and your kids have lots of other opportunities to travel and experience the world that kids living back in UK or Sweden don't have.

Most likely you have full time live in help - as this is what is common practice in East Asia among ex-patriates. You almost sound spoilt and unappreciative of that. And your mentioning that "both kids are unwell" while your W is traveling - is just strange to be honest.
Why is that an important fact to mention? Are you somehow not able to take care of the kids with domestic help available? Is that not a job for a man? Kids or W didn't chose to get ill or have a trip to make your life harder.

Your parents sound completely unhelpful and encouraging your selfishness, rather than trying to make you realise that you are being unfair. The life you are living is the life you chose as a couple. It's on you to make it work, rather than somehow expect your W to give up her career to make you happier.

So - to summarise - I think you are being quite selfish. You were happy to enjoy the lifestyle that your W's job was providing while you lived in Europe. Now that you are in a different location you are complaining about your life - as it's too far for your liking. And you are suggesting she changes her career path for you...

That said - some longer term planning is not unreasonable. I am sure - after a few years in her spot in Asia - she'll have choices of where to be next. And, as a family - you can decide/agree that Europe is the more suitable location for you - as your kids would be older.

For now - I think you either need to pick up and leave and learn support yourself in style you want in a location of your liking. OR you can give your head a shake and realise how lucky you are. And enjoy the comfortable life you are in.

I think this arrangement works well when your children are young, especially with the amount of cheap childcare and domestic help you get in that part of the world. However, the next move you make as a family (in 5 years?) will be more critical because your children will be around the age when friendships with their peers will start to become more important. And then they will also need to start preparing for key exams once they’re 14-15. I guess the question is whether you want to set down roots within a shorter timeframe.

I assume you would both be eligible to work in UK or Sweden? If so, it shouldn’t be that complicated (lots of families have parents of different nationalities) although you might need to weigh up factors such the amount of assistance your parents need and whether you would need your wider family for support.

I would suggest you sit down with your wife to discuss your family’s goals for the next 3, 5 and 10 years. Where do you ultimately plan to set down roots? And then work backwards from there to come up with a transition plan.

A bit harsh @Sashya . OP is obviously just a bit at a loss as to what to do for the best (for him, his wife, his children).

I don’t normally recommend therapy, as it’s a bit of a cliche. But it might help you to think things through. I think therapy can help us in these situations to consider a new way forward which we may have “prohibited” for ourselves for some or other reason.

I think the plan does have to be stick it out until we get the chance to move again, back to Europe, and my DW and I can plan for that. We'd be eligible to work in the UK and Sweden (I have a Swedish passport thanks to Brexit).

I thought I had acknowledged the benefits in my post - we don't have live-in child care so I was up a lot of the night with our sick toddler, but we do have a help in the day - maybe it'll look better on some sleep. My point was not that men shouldn't have to look after children, but that it can be tough with two young children who are sick when your partner is away.

I think the point is that, yes, it's some ways a fortunate position (hence the "gilded cage"), but a few years in Europe when we didn't have children in our early thirties feels a different proposition to being in East Asia in our early forties with two children. While it wasn't a surprise, people and their desires can change.

It's also the case that women have typically done this, so it's a bit of a role reversal. And I'm sure a lot of women struggled in this scenario before.

Are your wife and children happy with the current arrangement? Your post is really all about you. Yes, it’s shit being the lone parent on duty when your kids are ill, but that will pass. You need to
sit down with your wife and discuss this. It sounds like you want her to sacrifice her career for the sake of the family. She may be willing to do this, or it may owed to resentment. It’s a conversation you need to have with her.

I assume you are male.

I think it's very, very common for trailing spouses to feel like you do, and I am sure there are expat communities online where you could probably find other people who have felt as you do. It is also very common in families where one partner is the main breadwinner for the other party to feel a bit dissatisfied and lost when the children are very young.

Assuming that the benefits for the family as a whole currently outweigh your individual dissatisfaction then it's your responsibility to find what fulfils you. Financially speaking, do you need to work? Could you retrain or undertake further study?

Lots of people find themselves with no family help or support without having all the benefits of money and domestic help you mention here. If your career isn’t going anywhere or doesn’t make sense for her to give up hers.

Hi, good questions. Yes, our children (6 months and 3 years) are happy and my wife is broadly happy. The caveat there is that it's clear for her why she is here. She has colleagues, and is busy (although she's sad she's away when our children are sick).

I also see that my concern here can seem selfish - it's definitely me who is struggling with the isolation, and the obstacles to things like a fulfilling career.

I do work full time, and it's my work that contributes somewhat to our quality of life. I don't technically need to work to put food on the table, as my wife's salary is somewhat based on the idea that partners don't work. My salary is what gives us the opportunity to save for the future. I could retrain (or further train as I have a specialism, albeit one I feel increasingly removed from).

I recognise this as a classic ex-pat story, and it's more commonly a disatisifed expat wife in my scenario.

@MeWave - bit harsh? After OP's update - I think not harsh enough...

Men complaining about doing childcare, calling it - a "role reversal" is really not something that will get much sympathy from me.
OP had to stay up at night with an ill toddler. OK. Drumroll and a medal?

Thing is - this isn't about the location where they are. Even if the family lived in Europe - it won't have changes anything. If the W was away for work, and kids got ill - it'll still be on the other parent to provide care. Women have been doing it for millennia and manage.

But if a man does it for one night - it leads to a post on MN - where he thinks he'll find sympathy. And moreover - his first thought is - his W needs to quit her career to go back to a more appropriate female role.

OP - please don't pretend you "want to support your W's career".

Or, maybe, you are lying to yourself that you are.
There is no "role reversal" when a father does childcare. It's not solely W's job. And if female is the main breadwinner and does travel for work - then yes, more falls on the other partner. Irrespective of the location the family is in.

Yes OP - you can of course change your mind about a lot of things. And - I am sure it's a much easier life without kids - in Europe or not. But - I think your main issue isn't location as such - but life with small children, where you are expected to step up.

Like many men before you - your support of emancipation is theoretical. And once faced with reality of it - you revert back to the position of traditional gender roles.

I have a feeling your Swedish wife will not ponder to it. At least I hope she won't. Where she comes from - it's much more normal for the men to actually assume a more active and involved role in childrearing.

Finally - help is really cheap in East Asia. IF you are actually struggling it is easy to solve it.

Ok Sashya, I don't want to argue with you. My comment about "role reversal" was simply a recognition that women have typically been the trailing spouse and doing more child care than men, and that women have traditionally given up or limited their careers. This isn't me endorsing that women should do this. Supporting my wife's career is not "theoretical". My wife will be the first to recognise that I shoulder a bigger burden of child care (not just one night - my wife's job means that she travels quite frequently) and that I've sacrificed career opportunities to allow my wife's career to progress.

God, I'd hate it.

I think this is nothing to do with whether you're male/female, it's about feeling like a supporting character in someone else's life.

You've trailed around prioritising someone else's ambitions for 10 years. You've now had children & the game has changed & it's time to re-assess as a family.

My friend has just returned 'home' with her family after 10 years of following her DH ambitions across Europe with kids. She was knackered & lonely and needed to enjoy her own life for a few years. She wanted a job & to make friends that she wasn't saying goodbye to every few years. Her DH wasn't overly pleased but he knew it was for the best long term.

Speak to your wife. You say you 'dont think' she'd want to change career but if she's missing the kids, maybe she will welcome the opportunity to talk about settling down for a while? Maybe she feels pressure to keep travelling to maintain the current lifestyle?

See what she says.

Anyway, I didn't really want to get into a discussion on gender politics. That isn't really the point of the thread.

OP - I am somewhat confused by your posts. Is that more a vent, or are you actually looking for advice in how to make your life better?

You are a part if a couple that knowingly followed your spouse’s career and relocated. You find it difficult - partially due to location, partially due to role reversal.
Location issue is almost easier to solve - as what you actually need is to learn from many other expats and build yourself a life where you are. It is certainly possible.

As to your feelings about the role reversal - i think this is on you to deal with. Maybe with a counsellor. Your posts are hard to understand on that point - you seem resentful of it but you deny it. But the fact that your solution seem to suggest you’d prefer your wife to quit her carer is quite telling. Even if you don’t see that.

I also think OP that your situation is quite complicated, with lots of different strands presented. You’re not going to get an answer in this thread unfortunately. I’m sorry any posters have had a “go” at you. They are being ridiculous. I hope starting the thread has given you some insights that will then appear later down the line. Sometimes that’s all you need.

OP, does your wife’s line of work actually require her to relocate every few years or is it that her career would progress faster if she is able to do so? I expect your options are more stark if it is the former (or perhaps require some thinking outside the box). Are you able to work for a different organisation or constrained by your visa / childcare commitments?

No but the problem you have is that many women have faced those exact issues but were told to simply get in with it because his career is important, she agreed to it, it’s only a few years etc….

So I have to say, I had the same reaction ‘oh dear.it’s much harder when it’s the husband/father who isn’t taking the prime position re decisions’…..

Now, what can you do?
First of all, I want to remind you that if you throw the towel and decide to separate, your dcs will stay in the country where you live as it’s their normal residence. So yes you can go back to Europe/the U.K., but you’ll lose seeing your dcs regularly. That’s an important point.

Second, life with young children is hard. If you are the ‘main’ parent, dealing with all that responsibility is hard work. It takes time, effort etc… and yes dealing with sickness too. I’d hope that when you decided to go fur a second child, you had that discussion together on who would be shouldering those responsibilities (aka you by default) and you had agreed to it. Esp having had the experience of a child/baby before. I’m a bit and at the fact 6 months on, you are now deciding it’s not for you.

Third, the only thing you can. Do is talk to your dwife.
I have no idea what her contract is and whether she can easily get out if it. I do know that expat life is particular (been there, done that), that it gives opportunities to people you wouldn’t get otherwise. To replicate that is hard if not impossible depending on the area you are working in.
Im amazed that you are expecting her to simply give up on her career to accommodate you. You sound very blaze about it when I’m pretty sure that if the shoe was on the other foot and it was about your career in an environment that worked for you, you wouldnt be happy if she was as cavalier as that.
So your only solution is to talk about your expectations fir the future. It might be that a possibility is fir her to get a new post in europe (at the end of that contract?). It might be that she could find a job in another company.

But what sort if difference would it make if she finds a job in Italy? Would you get a better career there? Would you see family more often? Be honest?
im European living in the U.K. I see my parents and friends once a year. The people I know who go back more often are either teachers or SAHP. Would really have that much more opportunities than you have now?

Last but not least, is your issue your career, your family etc… or is the issue the fact what would work fir you comes second rather than first? That you are left with a lot if shitty side of looking after two dcs. Something else?
And do you think moving back to Europe would solve any of those issues?
Not judging here but a plaster band solution never works and I think it’s essential you know where your problem is first and foremost.

I don't see how this guy is finding it difficult cos he's a man - I interpret the role reversal comment differently to pps. I don't thinks he's annoyed with filling a 'woman's role' just a observation that it's more often woman who find themselves in his position. If I had to guess I'd say you sound homesick op. You want old friends and family around you. Humm I'd say you need to sound out your wife on this it's clearly a joint decision. FWIW we moved back from Europe a couple of years ago for the same reason. Because I was in your position. Your circs seem more complicated though. Talk to your wife and good luck

I think you would have got more helpful responses if you hadn't disclosed your genders here, OP. I understand why pp have picked up on it but it doesn't really change the fundamental dilemma of your situation. Just because plenty of women have followed their husbands abroad as trailing spouses doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to feel dissatisfied.

Being a trailing spouse is hard. I've done it.
I'd suggest building strong friendships, this I found surprisingly easy because I wasn't the only person in this situation.
I know several blokes who were trailing spouses and formed a little circle.

I'd also talk about an exit plan, at some point you have to stop moving because dc need to settle for their education.

But stopping is often harder than starting so keep talking about when you're going to stop and where.

Finally look at what you can do to get ready for when you stop. A good qualification can often be useful and you should have the time and money for that right now. Either totally online or online with trips to the University at times.

I don’t think the issue is more complicated than the many trailing spouses who have posted before on similar issue.
The difference is that he is a man and it’s coming as a shock to him whereas women are usually told to get on with it.
aka: go back on hols more often. Can you not find a small job on the side to keep your skills up. Integrate yourself within the expat community, you’ll find lots of support there. And friends. Have a word with your DH to be sure his next assignment is in the U.K./Europe etc…. Consider divorce if you are really unhappy (followed by how can you do that Wo loosing your dcs)

First of all, I want to remind you that if you throw the towel and decide to separate, your dcs will stay in the country where you live as it’s their normal residence. So yes you can go back to Europe/the U.K., but you’ll lose seeing your dcs regularly. That’s an important point.

Actually it’s not that straightforward. If the OP’s wife has to relocate every 5 years or so, then it’s arguable where they would live. Presumably not in their current country and it might even give them more stability to live with OP… Anyway, I don’t think that’s what the OP is even contemplating so that seems rather extreme.

Having been one of the children in an expat family, I would want to gently have the conversation with her, but make it clear initially that this is not an 'urgent' issue. This is a fine life without kids or with young kids. Not so much as the kids get older, because home isn't just the house and family, it's school and friends also. I would not want to uproot teenagers every 5 years if they were settled.

Although I've never been an expat myself I've travelled a lot with work and seen many friends and colleagues in an expat situation. A few observations.....

1. It's always tougher on the partner not driving the relocation. Historically this has mostly been women but as more women become main breadwinners this will increasingly affect men
2. Success of the arrangement depends on the life approach of the second (for want of a better word) partner - I've seen women without huge career aspirations have a great life throwing themselves into expatriate social networks particularly through kids (its tougher for men because up till now lack of men in the same position - that is likely going to change)
3. In this instance OP has an unsatisfying job so worst of both worlds - uprooted from friends and family without career satisfaction or time to build social networks
4. Homesickness is a real things and affects people in different ways - I've seen expat marriages break up over it

OP - I can't offer a definite cure to your situation here other than I think you both need to sit down and honestly discuss the situation and how you feel . That may lead somewhere you don't like but the way things are going ....

I was a trailing spouse. I grabbed every opportunity in the places we lived. Whilst I acknowledge the difficulties, and in my case there was no lucrative expat package, it's a life I signed up for so made the best of despite the obvious disadvantages of not laying down roots. I'm since divorced and I honestly think if we hadn't returned to the U.K. we would have stayed together, life is far more pressured here

You are getting a hard time here OP and I don't know why. I've been where you are and by year 3 I was unhappy and wanted to come home. You are allowed to be unhappy with your living arrangements and you are allowed to be a stakeholder in the decisions about where your family lives.

Marriage is a partnership and where possible it should work for everyone.

If people told me that my DH's career was more important than my mental wellbeing and happiness I would be quite upset.