Trapped in a gilded cage?

[auberginefortea]

Not sure if this the right forum, as this crosses family, work, and lifestyle, but here goes.

DW and I have been together 10 years, and about 7 years ago, in our early 30s, we moved overseas for DW's work. She's on a career track which means that she may be expected to move internationally, from time to time (think 5 years, with time spent in company HQ in Europe. We have 2 young children.

First, we lived in Europe for 5 years, and then 2 years ago we moved to East Asia. I've worked in both locations remotely for an organisation.

I'm feeling that this is starting to get stale. This week, our kids are ill, and DW is away on a business trip, and I question if this is the life we want to live. We have domestic help, but we don't see family or long-term friends (we've made new friends / acquaintances here). Our home is nice, but it's not really our home, and my career isn't going anywhere.

What makes it harder is that my parents look at it and have also become (to me at least) vocal - why, with two young children are we living like this? And I find it hard to defend.

There are some benefits. We're reasonably financially secure with savings (and I know we're lucky to have that). We can pay for people to do a lot of the domestic tasks. We've experienced things and visited places that, I suppose, make us worldly. And our childcare is affordable (again, from reading MN, I know that's not always the case). But it feels like a bit of a gilded cage.

But when I read about what makes a happy life (I think family, friends, meaningful work), I lack those things.

The big problem is that if we were really to act on this, it would mean my DW giving up her career (which she's worked hard for) and I want to support her. And to be honest, I'm not sure she'd give up her career (as it is) for me (although there are other things she could do, surely).

One last complication is that DW and I are from different countries (UK, Sweden), so neither of us would ever be truly home - although close enough for us to have a home and at least we could visit family a few times a year.

To mix a few metaphors and cliches, it feels like a gilded cage, from which we've put ourselves in checkmate. What would you do?

Jesus. Another thread where a man is treated much worse than a woman would in this situation. I guarantee if the genders were reversed here the OP would be getting sympathy.

I agree @Tinklyheadtilt I am a bit shocked actually.

Actually I think gender does come into it. A large part of the expat community is comprised of females following their husbands around so the expat community is set up for female partners. Hence a male partner will be lonelier.

I think you need to give consideration for when this will end. Because at some point your DC need to settle somewhere for schooling and you need to decide if you're going to be with them.

What I have seen work is that when the eldest DC is at year 10 (or at the very latest year 11 - assuming year 12/13 is final year of secondary school in your home country) families return 'home' or send their DC to boarding school at 'home' to give stability in their final years of study.

Then they have to decide whether they will stay in their home country while their DC are at uni or whether they go back to expat life.

My sister led this life and became very skilled in forming friendships. But it requires a LOT of work and her husband's career, while changed, was able to build on his expat experience now he is at home and he is continuing it even through retirement and will likely just reduce the hours. Now they have both their DC in the same city as they are in which was very important for my sister and are enjoying being there for them as they form partnerships and new lives (and looking forward to being involved grandparents!)

They wouldn't move now as their new community is too important for them and they are settled and happy. And interestingly neither child shows any inclination to travel or move cities so I suspect if you dig a little both of them found it disruptive.

Are you sure if the roles were reversed, the woman would be getting sympathy after saying she expecting her DH to simply give up his career?

And yes MH is important but the OP hasn’t mentioned his MH. He doesn’t say he wants to go back home. Rather he is aware they might end up somewhere else in Europe where it won’t be home (maybe not for him, or for her or for either of them).

@auberginefortea - this post from @ManAboutTown seems to sum up the issues nicely so am re-posting it:

“Although I've never been an expat myself I've travelled a lot with work and seen many friends and colleagues in an expat situation. A few observations.....

1. It's always tougher on the partner not driving the relocation. Historically this has mostly been women but as more women become main breadwinners this will increasingly affect men
2. Success of the arrangement depends on the life approach of the second (for want of a better word) partner - I've seen women without huge career aspirations have a great life throwing themselves into expatriate social networks particularly through kids (its tougher for men because up till now lack of men in the same position - that is likely going to change)
3. In this instance OP has an unsatisfying job so worst of both worlds - uprooted from friends and family without career satisfaction or time to build social networks
4. Homesickness is a real things and affects people in different ways - I've seen expat marriages break up over it

OP - I can't offer a definite cure to your situation here other than I think you both need to sit down and honestly discuss the situation and how you feel . That may lead somewhere you don't like but the way things are going ....”

100% agree if the sexs where reversed then people would be slating the husband for dragging his wife across the world every couple of years.

Yes I do. I would expect to see 'Oh, he is so selfish thinking of his own career', 'You have given up so much for him!'

I agree @Tinklyheadtilt . Second thread I've read today where the OP is getting little sympathy because they are male.

I think OP that you are just feeling what many parents feel when the children are small. Its hard work. I appreciate probably harder due to being in another country away from your 'village' of help.
It will pass. Those early years, with small kids are so tough, you might be more fortunate than some in some ways ie, money but you dont have your mum down the road or your best mate etc. Its all relative. Days, and nights, seem endless and repetative. But its not forever.

Is your DW's company HQ in London?
If so, ultimately that could be the goal, to secure a role there. Often international postings are to get the experience needed for a top HQ based job, or you can forever be a roaming family. If roaming doesn't work for you anymore, make sure the next posting is a HQ one. There will likely still be travel involved but you can put down long term roots.

I do think the OP is getting a bit of a hard time here. But I also think that families making all sorts of compromises to accommodate the job of the higher earner is just the reality of life.

You need to discuss with your wife whether these compromises are still worth it, and if not, come up with a long-term plan to move home together and nail down a timescale for that.

Personally I'd find your lifestyle and being away from family very difficult too, especially with young kids. If you are moving back to Europe though, make sure you are clear on how your living/ childcare/ housing costs will change, and think seriously about whether you are prepared for the lifestyle hit this could involve. I knew a few people who 'moved home' after getting homesick while living quite a gilded life overseas and actually found it quite a shock and a much more difficult adjustment than they realised.

MN honestly baffles me most days. There was a very similar post a while ago, but from a trailing wife who had similar concerns (I remember as I’d been there myself so found it an interesting thread). The posts ranged from sympathy and outrage at the husband for subjecting his wife and family to so many moves for the sake of his own career, to the classic LTB.

OP - you’re perfectly valid in your feelings, regardless of gender. If you’re wanting to vent then I hear you and having been in a similar situation myself fully sympathise. If you’re wanting practical solutions, then I would suggest being open and honest with your wife. I did and it was the best thing I ever did - turns out DH wasn’t as happy as I first thought with the situation and it was the catalyst we needed to start the move back home.

OP, you should have reversed the sexes when posting. Once you post as a man, there are many posters whose default position is you are selfish, sexist and wrong.

I think simply because you both have chosen to prioritise your wifes career in the past, does not mean it has to be like that forever. Life changes, and people's needs and wants change especially after when you have children. I would do two things if I were you (and I have been the spouse who followed for my spouse's work - it is not easy):

1. Stop talking to your parents about this. honestly it just makes everything murky if you start getting other people's input into what is your private family decision. you know what they think. simply stop entertaining it from now on.
2. Start a conversation with your wife sometime when you are child free and relaxed (not just after she walks in from a work trip after you've had a sick baby and child). Just start talking about where you go from here - how do you both see your life working out in 5 years. Where would you like to be. Do you want your children to go to international schools? Will you be going from post to post forever?

you don't have to keep on doing what you've always done as a couple but you need to decide together - without wider family getting involved.

I often tend to defend men on MN. And if the genders were reversed - i’d also tell a female OP to appreciate the upsides of the expat life she signed up for and to make the most of it. While plan for the longer term future in a location both would be happy in.
Which is what i have told this OP.

However - gender does come i to this. And OP clearly resents the fact that as a Man he does more of a female role.
And he is really blaze with his suggestion his wife should just quit her career.
Female posters in similar situations don’t tend to expect their partners to just quit.

Male privilege comes through his posts in various places and he refuses to quite see it.
And for that - i don’t have much patience.
It’s not a personal attack or being unfair.
It’s about calling things as they are.

It's difficult and I can see how you walked into it and I can see why you don't love it

For me I think this is more about the marriage and "the vision"

Are you looking and moving in the same direction?

Ie does she want to have the expat lifestyle and globe trot until 60 and send the kids to boarding school in the UK or move back for Primary or move back for secondary?

Timings and knowing there's an end date will help with some of your feeling I think.
Also are you making the most of your time there. E.g. Singapore is a great hub for visiting other places lots of interesting short haul trips are possible

Is the money really worth it? It might well be but you need to decide it together. If you throw away her lucrative career life might well be a lot grimmer
Money does buy happiness but it really does grease the wheels.
It's easy to take it for granted but when it's gone / you don't have it life is a lot tougher and you can't pay to make your problems go away. Think hard on that.

My DH and I have a shared long term plan...while we don't have it exactly mapped. We broadly know how we want life to look on the future.

E.g we know what kind of primary and secondary education the kids will have. his rough career plan, my career plan, how they work together, when we want to retire...

I think careers which involve constant relocation are for the relatively young. Most people choose to settle and build permanent connections at some point.

I think that OP does have a point and they both need to make a plan which is some sort of compromise if the marriage is going to last.

It is catastrophising to say OP’s wife needs to give up her career. She needs to shape a career which fits her and her family’s needs, which may involve changing roles or retraining. If she is a talented high flier, she can make it happen.

“I think OP that you are just feeling what many parents feel when the children are small. Its hard work. I appreciate probably harder due to being in another country away from your 'village' of help.
It will pass. Those early years, with small kids are so tough, you might be more fortunate than some in some ways ie, money but you dont have your mum down the road or your best mate etc. It’s all relative. Days, and nights, seem endless and repetative. But its not forever.”

There’s a lot of wisdom in this post also. The early years of children are lovely in many ways but extremely hard work and the longer you’ve lived without children the harder the adjustment. I found this hard enough in my mid-30s whereas you and your DW have embarked on this in your early 40s. This will almost certainly be affecting your feelings about everything including possibly intensifying feelings of loneliness. But child-rearing generally gets considerably easier as your children get older.

Trailing wives may have been more inclined or able to deal with this in the past but no doubt some have just been terribly lonely and unhappy. And that’s not okay. Nor is it okay for you to be isolated and unhappy. Your feelings are valid and warrant careful discussion with your DW.

Have you mentioned this to your wife?

She ought to half your concerns seriously as her life would be very difficult without you in it and especially in a different country

Life is short - talk to her, there are other jobs out there - there’s a big expat community where I live and you are not the only person who gets tired of the life. Many crave and do return to their homeland to settle once their kids get to a certain age.

It’s so important for children to be able to lay roots and build friendships.

You didn’t mention when the globetrotting might end but is there an end in sight?

I am no male apologist and am very quick to identify issues around systemic gender roles but I have read his posts twice and I simply do not see the resentment that you think is specifically around picking up a typically female role. The inference is yours.

Many women have been in the position you are in over the years. The issue is what's best for the family in the long run. I supported my husband through several international moves throughout his career, we are now in the UK despite the fact I am not English and to be fair after a bit of adjustment time I am now totally happy here, have made lovely friends and enjoy my work immensely.
Give it more time and you might just find your niche.

Change is difficult and sometimes the grass is not always greener on the other side. Wishing you all the best.

@DrMarshaFieldstone

i’ll bite. Maybe i am seeing what is not there?

But I just can’a see the reason to refer to ‘role reversal’ - several times when talking about taking care of his children.
To me - it carries a meaning.

As there is no reason to refer to it if the story is just that he is homesick.

Why on earth would you say ‘I’ll bite’, @MMmomDD? I’m not trying to goad you. I’m politely disagreeing with your interpretation. He mentioned role reversal once (apart from defending himself!), and my interpretation is similar to pp who have pointed out that as trailing spouses have historically been women the support networks which exist are likely to be geared towards, and used by, wives rather than husbands.

@DrMarshaFieldstone

i may be pedantic - but OP wasn’t talking about there being no support networks for male expat partners. And THAT would have been something to point out. He didn’t

He did talk about having to take care of ill kids. And about doing more than his W.

I often defend men on here. But - hard to defend a guy who says - she just needs to quits her job

I started a post with quotes which I believe refute your interpretation@MMmomDD before deciding that this is indeed ‘biting’. I will respectfully disagree with your inferences and wish you a pleasant evening.

Thanks for all the good advice - the main thing is this is something my wife and I need to discuss so we have a medium-long term plan, as this affects us as well as our children.

I do want to clarify two things. When I talked about role reversal, it was a direct response to the first sentence in the first reply to the OP - "... what you are describing is a common dilemma usually faced by women married to men with international careers". I wasn't commenting on how things should be, merely recognising that women have tended to be the trailing spouse.

When I wrote about my wife "giving up her career", I didn't mean it so literally so that I demand my wife to quit working. My wife works in international business where the done thing is to spend time at company HQ and in the countries where the company has significant markets. The question is whether for all our sakes (I'm the one struggling now, but our children will one day be teenagers) is whether this lifestyle is sustainable, and whether we might want to find jobs that allow us to be more settled.