Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD: support thread 9

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to understand the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

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The narcissistic parallels are so interesting. The couples therapist said in front of DP he is exhibiting narcissistic traits. I asked if that means they are actually narc traits or they are behaviours of ASD/ADHD that simply come across as narc traits. She said there is no difference. I am essentially dealing with narcissistic traits. One thing I will ask next session is given that he doesn’t have NPD are the narc traits changeable. Do they respond to therapy in a way an actual narcissist couldn’t be helped? But it’s very likely I’ll be going to the next session on my own now. DP has decided he doesn’t like the therapist anymore. ⛳️

He would definitely want at least 50/50 contact. He loves his kids and thinks he is a great Father. And when their interests do coincide , the do get on well. It’s just all the other times! But he has no idea how he is messing up the other times, or how this is affecting his kids either in the short or long term.

It’s like he is with me. He can get into a huge tantrum and then when it’s over he just goes back to normal with no insight whatsoever that the people subjected to the tantrum are still utterly shaken and distressed by it. He’s like, ‘move on, stop being horrible.’ If you aren’t all nice to him then.

He just has very, very little insight into himself or other people. And you can’t parent, or maintain a successful relationship, if you can’t do those things. ,

I asked if that means they are actually narc traits or they are behaviours of ASD/ADHD that simply come across as narc traits. She said there is no difference. I am essentially dealing with narcissistic traits

That’s interesting @organictomatoes I suppose it does make no difference really.

Very occasionally, I feel sorry for H. His behaviour causes immense distress for me and hurts the kids, but it hurts him too. He’s miserable as well. This isn’t how he wants his family to be, he just won’t accept my explanation for how things have gone wrong or how we can put them right. So he just carries on relentlessly doing the things that make us all miserable and feeling sorry for himself, but never us. And when I remember that, I stop feeling sorry for him.

@organictomatoes i see you say your H is similar to your Dad. Same here. My dad made a friend with ASD near the end of his life, and commented to me that meeting him made him think that he might have ASD too. I think he was right. I wanted to marry someone not like my Dad, but I unconsciously seem to have sought out someone who is in very many ways.
My H was also very loving ( hard to believe e now!) and as my parents weren’t, I think that primed me to fall for him. I can now see that H was so open from the start with his adoration of me, as his lack of theory of mind gave him no anxiety or bashfulness about being like this!

@organictomatoes I did read about something mentalisation based therapy which is designed for people with personality disorders, but which addresses poor empathy and an inability to see the impact of one’s behaviour on others. Which I thought sounded ideal. But the only relationship therapist I found who works with couples who was trained in it was prohibitively expensive ( it’s expensive, intensive training apparently).

However, I also don’t think it would work as I now realise therapy only works if the person receiving it goes in with the attitude that they need to change and work on themselves. And H has never got to that stage. It’s all my fault and his entire psychology is based on justifying himself.

How did you all find a counsellor with proper experience in autism?

I found one just by googling 'relationship counsellor autism'.

Never used her in the end as I realised H would not be going into the session with a willingness to look at his own behaviour or change.

Just had another row with H. He gets very angry and upset if the kids don't want to eat what he makes. He tied ds2 to a chair and was trying to force food into his mouth. DS1 does have eating issues, and every single member of medical staff we have spoken to has said its really important to remove all stress from meal times and that the most important thing is just getting him to eat, rather than worrying too much about what he is eating. Yet H continually creates stress and arguments around food when he cooks. No wonder DS1 goes off eating!

I managed to say to H ' Do you think creating anxiety around food is conduicive to someone eating?' He did say ' Of course not' But cannot see in anyway that his tantrums around DS1s eating is doing this.

That sounds really traumatic @YesThis. How old are your DC? I'm not really sure why I asked that actually; there is no age when it is ok to tie someone to a chair and force feed them

That sounds really bad @YesThis

I’d call that abuse. There’s no event in a child’s life that requires them to be tied to a chair, unless it’s a seatbelt in a car for protection.

But for force feeding? Two sins at once, 99.9% would agree.

It’s all about his need for control. I would tell him he cannot control his children and love and coercion are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Love is about accepting your child as they are unconditionally. Without conditions.

Coercion is forcing someone to do something against their will.
It’s not love. It’s abuse. It’s bullying. It’s using a child’s size to dominate. If the child was 6ft and strong, he couldn’t do this. He’s using his physicality to control.

Often the only way to help ASD see is to flip it.

Tell him that at dinner you will tie him to his chair and then force him to eat something he hates. He has no choice but it chew it up and chow it down.

So often unable to see another’s point of view. It’s deeply hurtful and upsetting, I know. You have my deepest sympathy. Something has happened at lunch with my DH which could have had me in tears. I ignore it these days, well I explain how he has hurt me to a blank response and then we move on.

Sorry @YesThis but tying a child to a chair and force feeding them is a bit more than a tantrum. He is physically, mentally and emotionally abusing your child.

@YesThis A word of caution; if this is known to school they will report to SS. Then if your DH doesn't cooperate things escalate. I know I'm there having to leave with the children at short notice as police became involved via SS. It doesn't wash that DH is ASD Asperger's ADHD etc and is no excuse. Be prepared that charges may be brought against your DH and you and your children interviewed for other signs of emotional and physical abuse. It seems from my experience SS are very hot on emotional abuse of children currently. Plus you will have one extremely angry DH if this happens who is looking for some one to blame which will likely be you. Take care.

I don’t like the conflation of autism with personality disorders. I don’t blame the DP that doesn’t want to engage with that therapist anymore.

I need to state the obvious: child abuse is NOT autistic behaviour. Your DP has other issues. I’d LTB.

Hmmm read the full (9) threads. The discussions are very very personal, nuanced, subtle and contextualised.

Please try to avoid sweeping generalisations.

I have really thought for a long time as to whether my DH is a narcissist. On the face of it I can see why someone would think so. The love bombing, the grandiosity, the need to put others down all the time, the devotion to avenge those who have “wronged” him, the lack of empathy, the focus always being on himself and how wronged he is…. but the intentional cruelty just isn’t there. He wants to make me happy. He genuinely loves me. I can see that. So I don’t think he does have NPD or a mild version. I think all the things I’ve described are facets of his ASD. I actually think it was very unhelpful of your therapist to say they’re the same thing. They may look similar. But they are not the same. They’re not motivated by the same thing.

He tied ds2 to a chair and was trying to force food into his mouth.

Oh @YesThis ... your poor, poor child.

I grew up old school and thought with my oldest that he should eat everything on his plate. One day he started to almost be sick and I realised that I'd really, really got it wrong. I had to fight with his father to get him to stop forcing older son to eat ... but even he never went so far as to tie him to the chair.

Please, for your son's sake and for your own if SS get involved, get external help, lovely.

Just a note about personality disorders and autism. Not quite the same but many autistic women were diagnosed with borderline personality disorder as teens. Now it's being acknowledged it was neurodivergence, not mental illness.

Thanks so much to everyone on this thread for listening. Posting has been really cathartic.

There has been a new development. DP has been having a crisis with one of his kids (who is also ASD) and I listened to him talk about it yesterday over the phone for a long time. He was getting angry with the school, which is a specialist setting that is very good, and seeming to prepare to go into conflict with them. It was all about how the school isn’t doing enough to help.

I said the child, who has been self harming (this is heartbreaking) needs to be referred to mental health services. I said I would help him make the referral.

DP got really mad at me and said I never listen, that he doesn’t want to be told what to do and he needs more (more!) emotional support from me. He said he couldn’t deal with me telling him what to do anymore and hung up the phone.

I responded with a text saying I’d like some time out and was going to have to step away from this latest crisis and let him and his exw deal with the child’s problems.

DP said I’m never helpful anyway, I just am codependent and seeking validation (using couples therapy discoveries against me). He then an hour later, I think out of RSD, sent another text where he said that having to ‘deal with me’ was worse than having to deal with his child’s crisis and that he wanted to end the relationship.

It’s probably a blessing. I put up a boundary to protect myself and this is what happens.

This is a man who has absolutely dominated and drained my emotional resources.

I have no idea what DP would do if I was sick. I can honestly see myself getting ill from the stress of him. He has PTSD on top of the ASD and ADHD and the trauma was caused by his divorce and court case, so not only is his divorce ever present in our relationship but also the therapy he has for the PTSD makes him distressed and angry for days afterwards so there’s more eggshells to walk on.

So I think I’m out, it’s done.

This forum has been a huge help in making my decision and seeing from others’ posts what may happen in future if I stay. Thanks all.

@BlueTick I can explain things to H till I am blue in the face, he doesn’t listen. He rebuts everything. He gives hyperbolic responses. Me asking DS1, when lunch is over and he has hardly touched his food, ‘ didn’t you like it’ led to me being accused by H of saying ‘ you don’t like it do you? the food is disgusting isn’t it? Daddy makes horrible food doesn’t he?’

I replied that I wasn’t engaging if he was going to use such invented hyperbole. And he replied ‘ you are walking away because you can’t respond to the truth’. !!!

Incidents like this make me think he’s genuinely insane. He regularly displays a complete detachment from reality which he genuinely seems to believe. I suppose it shows how his mind processes everything into personal criticism and attack. and his desperate need to never be wrong and always be right.

As for abuse and control, it’s not motivated by control. It’s motivated by his belief the kids need to eat and they need to learn to eat a wide variety of foods. I did say, ‘how would you feel if I made you eat a meal made with soya milk?’ But he just rebutted that. Can’t even remember how. He has very rigid fixed thinking about things.

And DS2 was just laughing at him. The more enraged he gets, the more ds2 laughs. Then his brother untied him and they ran off laughing. I don’t blame ds2 for laughing. H does look ridiculous when he’s like that. DS2 is very obstinate. The more you try to use force to make him do things the more he digs his heels in. I’ve told H over and over how to deal with these things. With DS2 you need to be firm but calm, you need to stay with him, make it clear you aren’t going anywhere. I find it easier to get ds2 to do things now as he knows I’ll persist so he makes a show of refusal but then does whatever it is. H has never got to this stage as he rages and flounces.

On the flip thing, I did once have success with this. When ds1 was a toddler H had a disgusting habit of taking his outdoors shoes off and putting them on ds1 high chair, on the tray thing he ate his food off. I told H again and again not to do this and why. But he just carried on. Classic H. His thinking is ‘taken shoes off. Need to put them down, oh look, here’s this handy table they fit on, I don’t even need to bend to the ground to put my shoes down. Brilliant!’ Absolutely no thought for the impact of this on his son. So one day I laid the table for dinner and put his outdoor shoes on his dinner plate. When he saw it, I told him that was what he was doing to ds1. He stopped after that. But probably just because he didn’t want that to happen to him again.

And that brings me onto people objecting to my reference to PD. So what if the therapy is designed for PD? It’s aimed at people with low empathy and an inability to see the impact of his behaviour on others. That is absolutely my H. He has absolutely no ability to see the impact of his behaviour on others. It’s the only therapy I’ve seen that actually names ways H behaves and says it addresses them. I’m more interested in the behaviours being addressed than the label. Or I would be if I thought H would engage with a desire to improve things. Which he won’t.

And thats why his motivation is different from an abusive man who enjoys power and control. H is not enjoying himself. He’s wretchedly miserable. He hasn’t got the empathetic ability to enjoy a feeling of power and control as he can’t understand how he is making the other person feel. More to the point, he hasn’t got the empathetic ability to understand how to effectively exert power and control - you have to have some ability to understand your victim to do that!

As for help, had a family support worker before and H just used it against me, and used it to shore up his own belief in always being right. Because they work by be positive and praising and building up parents self belief in their parenting, which H of course interpreted as him being a brilliant parent in all circumstances and I was just being spiteful when I raised any issues.
Had a SS referral after I broke down to a GP. It’s hard to describe how uninterested they were. The woman actually laughed and never heard from them again. We have a single point of contact here which is a gateway to all family services. I asked them for parenting support specifically targeted at parents with autism and they said there isn’t any.

Actually really glad to hear that @organictomatoes . From my own experience, I firmly believe getting out if you can for people with partners like ours, who just won’t change or ever see us, is the best thing to do. You can’t help someone who won’t help themselves.

Thanks for sharing about your P ( now promoted to ex-P!) using therapy against you. That’s what happened to me. It really helps me to hear people who have experienced the same. Helps stop me from thinking I am insane! I get such constant, denial and rebuttal and accusations from H, that I find it really hard when I am not understood by anyone now. Hearing of people having the experiences I have had is so helpful, so thank you for that.

@YesThis I can’t imagine how hard all this is for you.

It is a lot easier for me to detach from a partner I don’t live with/don’t share children with. But I am pleased sharing my story helped you feel you are not alone.

You mentioned earlier that family services have not helped in the past. Perhaps they would behave differently now there has been an incident of physical abuse (tying child to a chair) by your H? I will leave if for others who have more knowledge and experience of this kind of thing to advise. It all sounds very worrying indeed.

organictomatoes it sounds for the best. Honestly, him telling you you don’t give him
enough emotional support…. wtf?! Why is everything all about them. Always. There is no other frame of reference. It’s like YesThis says: everything is processed into a personal attack. So you making a suggestion (referring to MH services) is telling him what to do. And if he is like my DP then a combination of the PDA will kick in and he will refuse and become defiant AND he will reframe it as me telling him to do something differently to what he is doing and this will of course be taken as a personal criticism (ie. What you’re doing is wrong. Do this instead). So it makes him very angry as he thinks I’m saying I am better than him. It’s so awful to deal with. I think you’re right to walk away from the relationship. You have given everything and deserve some peace.

And yes, tying a child to a chair to force them to eat is well beyond acceptable and needs addressing. That he thinks that is acceptable is very concerning. I get that he will have taken no pleasure from it. It’s not done out of a sick sense of belittling someone, it was done out of desperation to control the situation. But to think that is the way to manage that situation is very telling. Gosh I really feel for you…

I wouldn't actually do it but this was a really excellent summary of why it would be a terrible idea. Because you're right, a pseudo-relationship is a good description and I'm sensible enough to know that. I just sometimes think my marriage is also a different kind of pseudo relationship. Benign housemates on a good day.

And I increasingly don't give a shit if it 'offends' people when they see narcissism and autism used in the same sentence. In a sense, it doesn't matter what the underlying motivation is, the victim experiences the utter self-absorption and lack of self-awareness of their partner in the same way.