September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@prettycosmos What a difficult time for you, and what an awful way to be treated by your mother. You will find lots of understanding here. Going "no contact" with your mother might be the best way forward for you. It's hard, but it can also be the beginning of a long healing process.

I hope you are able to take comfort from your own lovely family unit.

Look after yourself first and foremost, and take care.

@prettycosmos welcome. This forum has saved my brain cells and my marbles. What you describe is awful. Keep coming back and talking.

thanks all for the ongoing support

I am now back home, and feelings of relief are imense!

I have had fairly minimal contact with my parents for the last few years really, having come to the realisation a long time ago this was better for my mental health. Mostly it was the contact with my Mum that was difficult. I did have a better relationship with my day, I do believe he loved me and he did try to to do his best by me. My Mum was vile to him for their whole marriage. I will never understand though why they stayed together, and part of me is angry with my dad for the role he had in enabling my Mums behaviour (which he defintiely did to some extent) I loved him though, and I know his life wasnt easy either. And Im sad hes gone and will miss him. Whilst I do believe my sister experiencd a very traumatic childhood too, and I dont blame her for what happened, she does some traits similar to my mum and will also be more likely to make excuses for my Mum - which I cant tolerate anymore tbh.

The funeral isnt until Jan. My plan is very minimal ontact with both Mum and sister until then.

For now I'm focusing on my own wonderful family. My adult children and teenagers have been so fantastic this week, being with me, hugging me, sending me messages checking Im Ok. Im so glad to be home with my dh and teen dc. My adult dc will be coming home as well next week for christmas so we will all just enjoy being together.

I did quite a lot of reading around naracissitic mothers etc several years ago , but feel I may soend some more time exploring this as it has all been brought so close the surface again with this weeks events. The abuse we experince leaves sucha legacy doesnt it? Even 50 years later I am still reeling form the effects it has had on my life.

My one hope is that I have made things different form my children, and that they know how much they are loved. I treid so so hard to ensure this. I think they do and that in itself is my biggest comfort.

I just wrote out the longest message, interrupted myself about a sentence before the end to answer a WhatsApp, and it was deleted. Does anyone else’s phone glitch like this?

@prettycosmos the TL:DR is that your children’s behaviour on its own is proof that you’ve broken the cycle of abuse and you should be overwhelmingly proud of that. Glad you’ve survived.

I'm in such emotional pain because I have pretty much no one in my life except for my mother who is being vile. She is old and I feel bad that her life is like this. My dad was a nightmare, a very angry alcoholic, but I miss him so much. He died three years ago and it just gets harder. A while after he died I realised one reason I miss him is because at least he didn't hate me.

I don't have a single friend (which obviously says something about me). I have no one I can call about anything. The aloneness is physically painful.

@BluebellsForest it definitely does not say anything about you, it’s hard to make friends when we’ve had toxic upbringings or in my case traumas too, it makes it harder to trust people and let them in. I am alone too without friends. It’s the wanting someone to have a chat too with a cup of tea that’s the hardest part for me.

I have my partner and son but no one else as estranged from all family. So currently them as I live with them and a phone call with my mum once a week that’s very stressful.

I just wanted to come back here to say thank you. Child has now disclosed safeguarding risks at school and to me. It's tough to hear it but I take encouragement that it's a reasonable basis to say "no" and get that to stick for good.

Merry Narcing Christmas

@prettycosmos Do take a look at Dr Ramani on YouTube and see if any of her insights help to shed light on what you have been dealing with. She is very good at explaining toxic dynamics.

Your mother may, or may not, be a narc. You don't have to find a particular label for her. What you do know is that she was (and remains) abusive and neglectful. Your sister may share similar traits which could be why you find being around her difficult also.

It took me years to see that my highly toxic sister was pretty much a carbon copy of my abusive mother. I went NC years ago. We can't choose our family, but we can choose to walk away from them.

Oh @BluebellsForest, it’s an awful feeling. Part of the narc routine is training you to think you’re awful so you never “get above yourself” doing things like thinking you deserve friends and also in thinking to themselves that they are so far above you. It marks you. Thank you for sharing.

This sounds super patronising but is there any sort of group like a non-audition choir locally? I am consistently surprised by how friendly and outgoing people who attend those groups are, even if they’re 50 years older than you or something. It can actually be a good boost when strangers like you. I like talking to strangers when I’m in hospital as well, and I especially like having a furry friend who doesn’t despise me and just judges me on how I treat her.

Thank you, @Tbry and @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau.

I've done stuff like that, Cecile but I'm not good with strangers so so I usually don't have a positive experience. I have a new rescue cat who I love so much, but he has health problems which I am struggling with the anxiety over. He is not too bothered by the health issues and is happy, I think.

I have had friends but not any longer and I just feel so old and so over all this.

@prettycosmos I’m so sorry to hear this. A childhood like that casts a long, long shadow. It's obvious you've broken the cycle with your wonderful family, but that doesn't alleviate the pain to your inner child. Good that your sister acknowledges those awful things which are in BLACK AND WHITE and you had an honest conversation. But it's good that keeping them both at arms length. The picture can change so so quickly.

@BluebellsForest having few friends is not your fault. If you grow up a toxic, dysfunctional, it's hard to trust, it's hard to know normal, it's hard to navigate inter-personal relationships. Are you living with your mum? Carers UK is a fantastic charity and has support groups. My friend met a really good friend there. She didn't have to pretend to this guy that caring was a joy and they are as thick as thieves.

Here at Monkey Towers, I am spent. I had a 20 minute crying jag on the phone to a client this morning. They know I'm ill and what I'm going through. The bipolar flare up is ENTIRELY caused by this shit. I have booked a Dr appointment. I've sacked off work for today, done some Xmas shopping (send me prayers) and I'm going to have a bath. Self-care, self-love.

@BluebellsForest I meant a toxic and dysfunctional family. I can hardly think straight today. Hugs to you. Xxx

Thanks, @MonkeyfromManchester. Hope you managed to relax properly.

Yes, I do live with her. I've pushed myself out to things like that in last few months, but I find it soul destroying.

I do go with a positive attitude btw. I'm often quite optimistic to start with.

The issue with friends is almost the opposite of what has been suggested by a couple of people here: I don't find it hard to trust people, my company is simply not wanted.

I know I sound self-pitying, but it's become so blatant. I have no friends, partner, children, very little family and none I have a good relationship with.

I know what you mean @BluebellsForest as I’ve experienced at least something similar for most of my life, and my attitude that e.g. my partner only wants me for sex, which was inculcated by my mother, harms my relationships even more. But even if you don’t get lasting friends, even at work you can at least get a little camaraderie. If you’ve got work I’d even start there if I were you, because you all have to be there anyway. Tell the part or the whole of your brain which says they hate you - that’s your parent’s voice which has no right to be there - to shut up and just chat with your colleagues.

I really think I might have an inkling of how you feel - early last year I actually died technically twice in hospital and needed resuscitation and the nurse kept asking me is there anyone I can phone? And I couldn’t think of anyone whose number I could give her in good conscience. Since then I’ve developed a relationship from a chance encounter and discovered that I have at least one friend who will read a text every day, and obviously I have Velvet although she’s obviously starting to be at the centre of a power struggle with my mother. It’s really hard. Is there any option of forming a stable counselling relationship? It’s a bit Freudian but it’s supposed to help you form outside relationships.

You’re not alone, you’ve got us. I know it still feels like you’re alone but don’t forget that, and your feelings are understandable.

@BluebellsForest you have us at least. It’s the self doubts in your head caused by your parents…same as with most of us.

I used to have tons of friends in the past from work or school but they were superficial ones and ended up being users rather than actual friends. My best friend of 30plus years has dropped me so I am now on my own. I actually am unsure how you make new friends 🤷‍♀️.

If you work or study try to mix a little with those people, just a chat after a video call at work would help. My partner also has no close friends (once again I’d say bad upbringing reasons) but he has amazing chats with work colleagues all the time on the phone. He wfh and so on occasion I can hear as the sound travels and I must admit at times I feel slightly envious. But good for him to have people to chat to.

If not you will have to try something like me next year. It’s my secret New Year’s resolution to myself. I’m going to try to get myself out of the house more and retry a ladies social club, I’ve tried it once and really wasn’t for me at all. I really hated it as clique conservative sort of vibes and I’m more of a free spirit.

I’m also considering volunteering and a local history thing. If they do talks and you sit and listen and just chat at the end I might manage that.

Otherwise things I can think of, depending on funds as I’m on a low income, there’s craft clubs, WI (mines far too religious for me as the leader is a vicar but I’m sure others are different).

If I find anything that helps me I will let you know.

@BluebellsForest I have good friends from my teens but I live abroad so we chat online a few times a year. I have 2 good friends here but like me they work, have a life so we commit to coffee regularly, I really enjoy it but don't have the energy to do it more often.

I sometimes force myself out of my comfort zone and do social things, I hate it, I have anxiety attacks, I would rather be at home. I also don't like being around people who drink.
Tbh I would happily be a hermit with my husband who also had a horror childhood and my dogs but I realize that it isn't healthy.

I became a loner as a child I was deeply unhappy and lonely.

My mother always complained I had lower class friends who were trouble makers, why didn't I have nice friends. Other parents didn't want their nice children associating with a child who had alcoholic parents, whose mother tried to shag the dads and turned up to gymkhanas, gymnastics and hockey pissed up and drunk driving into walls, lamp posts and nice peoples cars!

I found out in my 30's that normal, nice people can instinctively spot damaged people and avoid us as we are unpredictable and unsocialized, it unsettles them. Big lightbulb moment for me, I
stopped trying to be socially acceptable, just swore, simmered with violence and laughed too loud. Anyone who can handle the real me, a tangled ball of contradictions and emotions, can't be too tightly wrapped themselves. I don't want to be unacceptable or lonely but I do think friendship can be over rated but I am a deeply damaged girl. I prefer to look for joy and happiness in life, that is often my dogs, wild cats and garden birds ❤️
I hope you find some light bulbs moments we are fighting a lifetime of trauma xxx
I doubt that makes any sense.

@binkie163 if you’re managing to stay healthy, I don’t think you should dismiss not having loads of friends as a life path which some people actually choose! It is really miserable though and if you’ve actually had friends at any point you really feel the lack of them. I spent a lot of time alone as a child and young teenager and didn’t know what I was missing. I don’t think all of us end up unsociable and unpredictable necessarily, I have had manners beaten into me to the point I could probably make polite small talk with the King at a cocktail party without a faux pas and am always the one to reach out with my friends, and am tiresomely predictable in that yes, if you see me I’m probably going to cry or have a panic attack or something like that. I’ve worked out my tells for “damaged” - dozens of scars, always trying to make myself as small as possible, avoiding eye contact (due to autism but it does make you look dodgy), quiet voice I’m normally unable to raise to hear me enough in a crowded room, etc. but there are still nice people in the world and from this thread you guys are definitely some of them, who everyone would benefit from being friends with.

M59 here. The 'black sheep' of the family from being about 15, and the scapegoat for everyone else's woes and issues. Cutting a very long story short, went into counselling in 2009 - an amazing experience that helped me no end to deal with the rejection and isolation issues.

My wife and I keep ourselves to ourselves, and I went low then no contact with both parents, being dragged back into the 'family' after both died, and both times seeing up close what I had escaped. I wasn't relevant, nothing had changed.

I survived it, but why is it that Christmas brings things back? Had contact, out of the blue, from a family member yesterday to ask how I was and banging on about their house full for Christmas, and how hard it will be to fit everyone in. I Well thanks for that!

It will be just the two of us, again, and we'll have a nice quiet, restful day doing what we want, when we want.

I dip into this thread every now and then. Just wanted to say how much it helps me to read that we're not alone with all this, and to say that it can be hard, but you can pull through it and leave the negativity and pain behind.

Be kind to yourselves in the next couple of weeks. Take care.

@NDerbys32 congratulations on managing to climb out of the black hole of family abuse, at least to some extent. Even if you’re free from direct pressure from the malignant family members, it’s the “Christmas is a time for family” stuff and general societal pressure to comply with rituals which don’t really fit modern society which really piles the weight on. It sounds like you are dealing with it in a really healthy, functional way for which I congratulate you :)

One thing I've learned is that 'family' can be an overused concept. In ours, and other cases that I know of, 'family' means - be like us, think like us, act like us and don't you dare try to be different or question anything.
It's so hard to see it hen it becomes obvious. I was very young when I first registered it.

Once you take their power away by your own decision making, it hurts but is what I needed to do for me and us and our future happiness.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau oh I can do all that superficial social nice stuff I just don't want to, it bores the shit out of me and so do the people who are drawn to well behaved quiet people and events. I don't want to behave not even superficially, I did enough lying and mirroring normal into adulthood to last me a lifetime.
I met Mrs Queen when my grandad was a buck house guard, I managed an afternoon garden tea party without shouting fuck at the top of my voice, I had Dr martens to go with my tea dress, I find the aristocracy are far more accepting than middle classes.

YOU MET THE QUEEN??? OK this is borderline humorous but two of the most common threats when I was learning manners at let’s say 4-5 were “you’ll never have tea with the Queen” and “if you don’t use your bottom we shall cut it off and sell it”. I always thought the Queen seemed quite nice and had ponies and I’d be safe with her as well.

I am a people pleaser par excellence but although I’ve learned all the rules I can try my best but when I see my boyfriend interacting with my mother, for example - he hates her and I can’t tell if they’ve sussed each other out honestly - I can see I’m still quite unnatural. I am 100% better with animals.

This might be a bit of a controversial thing to say but I’ve generally found the upper classes and very UMC people to be far more accepting over my whole life - experience gathered through being brought up by incredibly uptight parvenus. They normally have had very odd and dissonant lifestyles themselves and end up a bit stuck-up and detached but really generous and non-judgmental.

I'm not fighting anything, @binkie163. I'm finished.

Don't underestimate the difference between a couple of friends plus a partner and no one. I didn't realise how different it is, it's like being cut loose. Like Cecile said, I have no one to be next of kin. I need someone to be discharged to after elective surgery... there's no one. I've been trying to find out if you can pay someone to take this role.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I did indeed. Imagine how impressed I felt that she knew my grandad's first name, she said 'how lovely to see you Albert, have you come from barracks or home' she held grandad's hand and smiled at me. Obviously after years of ballet I knew how to curtsey.
She just seemed really kind, kind face and eyes. My grandad adored her, so I did.
Imagine having to know who is there, obvs she had private secretary with her maybe prompting, I bet ear pieces were so handy in later years.