Hi everyone. Finally, I have got a connection on my computer and a bit of time to catch up. I just wanted to comment on a few things that leaped out at me, and were really insightful on thsi thread so far... apologies in advance for the mega post...
Firstly, I do apologise if I haven't acknowledged everyone individually, but will endorse the comments made by others in response to some of you (Nab, JJen, Matildez and Flight) that lack of self worth really is a learned response to the hateful and ignorant messages given to you by the very people who were supposed to nurture you, who were responsible for helping you to create a positive self-image and a feeling of belonging and having a place in the world, but who failed you. I remember when I started this journey many years ago reading the Desiderata and crying for hours after reading "You are a child of the universe, as much as the trees and the stars, you have a right to be here", as it seemed so poignant for me - I had never felt I had a right to be here. I had always felt I just took up space in my parents' house (and, more fundamentally, in the world) in the same way that some of you feel your kids would be better off without you. It simply isn't true. Not only do you have a right to be here, but your kids need you and love you, EVEN if you are not a perfect parent. You don't have to be. You are human. You are their mother. Your children are resilient as were you. They love you, mistakes and all. Why on earth would they be better off without you?
We have all on this thread to some extent been "trained" to carry the bad feelings for the rest of the family so that they can all continue as if the family is perfect and you are the problem - which leaves everyone else and the myth of the perfect family intact. In your case, Nab, your mother was a very damaged woman who again projected her imperfections onto you and left you to carry the burden. You CAN all change the learned response to your childhood (i.e. your script/internal critic or the "negative introject" as it is sometimes called) with hard work and self-reflection, which I honestly believe you are capable of, because the fact that you are brave and resilient women is evidenced by the way you have already managed to overcome the terrible things that happened to you and the unbelievable double whammy of neglect and criticism and then the guilt and shame that you have carried all your lives because of THEIR behaviour.
The fact that all of us have the courage to stand up and say that we are not willing to accept this negative influence in our lives (good on you Ally, btw, and tell your counsellor to get stuffed!)any longer is evidence that we are also self-aware and strong enough to boot out the internal critic that took up residence in our minds, to keep up our parents' jobs for them after we left home. I know it can be done because in many ways I think I have done it (or at least am getting there) - although I entirely acknolwdge that what some of you have been through (Nab, JJen) is far worse than anything that happened to me.
I had a very weird mix of both positive messages from my mother when I was being good, being like her, being clever or talented ("Oh look at my daughter Pages, isn't she wonderful?" - or should I say "aren't I wonderful for having produced such a talented/clever/well-behaved, etc child like Pages")but then the minute I behaved in a way that she didn't like, the skyrocket took a nosedive and I was suddenly plummeted to the depths of despair and worthlessness, ignored, given the silent treatment, told I was a horrible person, a crybaby. As for my stepdad, I didn't even have to do anything, just my existence, my presence in a room, was enough to get him started on me. I couldn't win with him, I was either "Miss goody two shoes", someone to be mocked or derided, "knocked down a peg or too" when I was behaving(even though I was already at the bottom peg emotionally), or to be hit or verbally abused for a minor infraction or breaking one of his many many rules.
I can see the direct correlation between the way I ended up feeling about myself as an adult, which was basically ok and quite positive when things were going well, but very easily skyrocketed into a downward spiral of feelings of worthlessness and shame when anyone criticised me or if I did or said something stupid, made a mistake (like my posts about work, recently, on the last thread). This black and white approach to our thinking about ourselves is very common in toxic or dysfunctional families. Allowing yourself to be human, to make mistakes is key and it's something I actually tell myself when I have done something wrong now, "You're human, that's all. EVERYBODY makes mistakes".
JJen, I wanted to say on that subject that it is easy to think of yourself as damaged and different while everyone else is "normal" and wouldn't understand, and I too have "overshared" at times - and it does leave you with a horrid feeling of over-exposure, but it isn't ALWAYS the wrong thing. I am actually getting more used these days to telling people very frankly about my family (older brother tells me he is doing the same, and no longer feels the feelings of "exposure" or having "blown the family secret") and the more people he tells, the more he discovers that he is not so different from others, that many of us on this planet are walking wounded. Maybe even most of us. This woman from your church was trying to tell you that she too is human, "everyone has baggage", i.e. you are not the only one with things in their past that they feel shame and pain about, and although it is hard to trust I think you do need to talk to someone. I know it has to be the right person, but some people (probably most) are to be trusted and even the ones who don't understand (like some of the counsellors mentioned on this thread) can be walked away from, with no harm done.
I think finding the right counsellor is crucial to healing and, as Engel and Forward both say, many counsellors still find it very hard not to follow the Christian approach of forgiveness and "family first" but a good counsellor really should be taking the lead from you and guiding you and as I think Smithfield said, being your "enlightened witness", validating your early/current experiences in the way that our parents should have and would have if they weren't so utterly self-absorbed. Telling you you will feel bad when they have gone is just cliched rubbish. You don't need to pay a trained professional £40 per hour to hear that, you can hear it any day of the week from people with a lot less knowledge and life experience than you...
Moving on... Ally, your posts on page 5 (18.3) was very illuminating (and recent one about your sister very funny!) I am so proud of how far you have come, in being able to detach yourself and not respond, even rip your sister's letter apart with humour - but again, to decide not to respond, even though in both letters the bait was clearly there. I know that you some time ago had the golden realisation moment - not caring what they actually thought any more, and that's how I feel with my mother now to a large degree. But I must admit, they have had a good go, haven't they, and I would still have found it hard not to retort in anger to some of what they said. Your mother sounds very similar to mine, highlighting paragraphs, etc., mine too has taken to banging on about the blame culture ("let's not blame anyone, oh and I think I'll absolve myself while I'm at it"), "Lucky gm, lucky gc" (my mother's letter: those of us who escaped your father's genetically inherited autism are very lucky). Oh how lucky we all are, your upbringing wasn't that bad, we took you to stateley homes you know....
I think the point your counsellor, your sister and your mother are all missing is the same point that my family are all missing, which is exactly what you said... nowhere have they even acknowledged, let alone apologised for, the fact that you have been hurt by them, that the family is totally Fed up, always has been, and that you bore the brunt of that through your whole f*g LIFE!!!! (Ohh, bit more anger in me yet, I see )
(And that goes to show that whatever stage any of us are at on this journey, it is not a journey with a beginning, middle or an end.... it is about accepting the fact that the pain and anger will always, to some degree be with us, but it's about learning to live with and deal with those feelings. I for one enjoy the anger now, it gives me energy (will probably get loads of housework done in a bit )).
1plus, I totally relate to what you said about your siblings' reaction. Mine reacted in exactly the same way, as they are still living my mother's myth of the perfect family (that Pages has come along and wrecked for everybody. Bad Pages!). My younger siblings followed the toxic parents reaction to confrontation to an absolute T, it was textbook stuff, and luckily I was prepared, had read it and inwardly digested the paragraph about siblings. (How dare you accuse our lovely poor innocent mother, who has always done her best for us, of xyz). They have all cut ME off, I understand, because of the letter me and OB sent to my mother. She is now the victim and everyone has conveniently forgotten what this was all originally about and how badly they treated me. Do I care? Nope. You can get the control back by deciding what YOU want to do about it. Do you still want to have contact with sisters who are denying your reality? Because that is ultimately what they are doing. By all means, contact them, tell them the things you have left unsaid, write it all down and spend a few weeks refing it so that it is not angry, hurt, but comes from an "adult" place, but tell it like it is and if they then don't respond or don't want to be in touch you will know that they have not yet had the "realisation" and are unlikely to. And tbh, not many of our siblings or parents for that matter ARE likely to. The odds are against it because the myth of the perfect family with one unfortunate troublemaker (i.e you) is far more palatable for them. I too sent the whole family an email telling them how I felt, telling the truth about our family (my truth anyway) and saying that they should either treat me with more respect or leave me alone. They have left me alone to this day, and it is as if I have now wronged THEM by saying all this. But the long and short of it is that unless and until they acknowledge and have that realisation that what you are saying is true, you wil be damned either way, by either playing the family game and absorbing all the bad feeling, or stepping off and leaving and becoming the persecutor (only way to leave the drama triangle) so you are going to be the bad guy whatever way you play it. Your family, like mine, are simply not in the habit of validating, understanding and listening to you. As Attila said (quoting the book) "They wouldn't be toxic Parents otherwise" and unfortunately that usually extends to siblings to, except for theose of us lucky enough to have one or more siblings who remember things as we do. I know what you mean about "life laundry" btw, have done it lots of times. You are just making space in your life for the "healthy" friends that are yet to come. I also relate to that feeling of injustice, and having no-one on your side. It has stayed with me all my life and has strongly influenced what I do for a living. I still get moments of being so astounded that after everything I have been through with DS1 they could be so intolerant of my hurt and incapable of putting themselves in my shoes and caring how much they had hurt me. Both OB and BF reminded me of this recently, that I had spent the last 3 years coming to terms with the fact that my son was fairly severely learning disabled, and that my family should have been reassuring me not calling me a liar. It beggars belief really, and just goes to show that none of them really give a flying one about my feelings, if indeed they ever have.
TMSB, well done for finally taking the plunge. I am sure MS has absolutely no idea why you are upset with her, as none of this could possibly be her fault. My mother too doesn't do email anymore, everything is handwritten. She made a point when I saw her last about email being sent "the minute you clicked the button" - too late for any regrets (she had been listening to some programme on Radio 4 as usual about it). DH said "but that's exactly the same if you put a letter in a post box, you can't get it back, so it's no different". "I know" I said (Monica from Friends voice). My mother has the most useless logic, she doesn't question anything, if she heard it on Radio 4 then it's true... Anyway, soiunds like MS is not going to give up easily but at least she knows your position now and you have done a huge and positive thing for YOU. Something about your MS and your interractions reminds me a bit of another game in my family, whereby another family member (your MS in your case) winds you up to the point where you explode and then she says "Ohhh, what's wrong with you? Temper temper" (I think Ally can relate to this). It's a way of getting you to carry the bad feelings yet again, while they remain and look like the calm, quiet, reasonable one). Very toxic.
Smithfield, I hope things are a bit better, and please remember, this is the hardest time for you. Sounds like DD is a bit colicky, I too couldn't put DS2 down at that time of day, and like you, it had to be me and not DH (for both DS1 and 2). It was exhausting for me, DH felt rejected, life was no fun and it was the closest me and DH have ever been to splitting up (thank God we didn't) and then one day when DS2 was about 6 months old we turned a corner and it just got easier and easier from there. So I guess I am saying "this too will pass". Just go easy on yourself, as others have said.
What you said (think it was you Smithfield?) about mothers day being the chance for mothers to "reap their reward" was really illuminating for me, because my mother (despite always giving crap presents, in true NPD fashion)has always made a big deal about what she gets from us on her birthday or mothers day, and I am sure she sees it as a reflection of her worth as a mother. I did send my mother a card this year, not because I really wanted to but more because I felt (in my case, and this is no judgement on anyone else and what is right for them) I was making more of a statement in NOT sending one. It was a very simple card, just said love from Pages. But she has now sent me a very upbeat Easter card (we are not religious either, and I didn't send her one), telling us all to have a wonderful day, and a bit of superficial chat. I think she thinks that we are moving on, but I know that we aren't. (My BF said she will find out in time that we aren't). I am at a loss though as to how to go on from here. I feel I can't completely cut contact, so chose instead to maintain that superfifical contact that Susan Forward mentions as a third option. But I can't and won't let her back in either. OB has chosen no contact at all, he says it's all or nothing for him. He knows that means nothing, as my mother will never change, or acknowledge what she has done (despite her grudging excuse for an apology). And even if by some miracle she did, like you Ally I don't know if I could ever trust her again. So I guess it will be cards on memorable days 5 times or so a year, a few photos, and that's it. Is anyone else further down the road who has maintained this sort of superficial cards on birthdays sort of position? I guess I am just finding it a bit weird as I am not used to having this sort of relationship with anyone that I have once been close to. Apart from chilhood friends I suppose that I have "grown out of".
Anyway, here endeth my mammoth post (blue ribbon back please Ally). Maybe we should all write a group "Anti-Thought for the Day" for Radio 4 on this subject . I know my mother would be listening.