"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Atilla - 9 years

So how did you handle MIL in the beginning? Were you just assertive from the start, or could she sense you were someone who could not be messed with (mean that in the nicest possible way)
For me I know I invited her in because I was trying to meet my own needs, so I accept responsiblity for that....just need to learn to be more assertive I think.

Itati, I feel really glad for you that they removed you from that situation and that people believe you. Even if he pleads not guilty in court you will know that you are right and that there are people who are on your side. I can't imagine how hard it will be but surely it must be best to get on with it and get it done and not put off doing what you need to do (reading over your old notes etc). Imagine the relief when you have done everything that needs to be done and know you have done everything you can. If people believed you enough to remove you then I feel you are likely to win (although I have been called naive).

I think it is true if you have been parented badly you are in danger of carrying on bad parenting ways because these ways are in your subconscious and you didn't have role models for a better way. And some people who have been abused do become abusers, but I don't feel that you would. You have thought about it too much to end up unthinkingly doing it. You know how awful it feels and couldn't make yourself do that to someone else.

The more subtle bad parenting 'techniques' you could end up doing without realising though and that is why you need to talk to friends and therapist and use MN. Get new role models by watching how other people you know bring up their children, think about what they do that you don't agree with and try to copy the things they do which you think are good.

Smithfield, so you recognise that your MIL has a problem with needing to feel more important and so do you. She is doing wrong things to try to help herself and you are just feeling crap. Is there some kind of moderate way where you can decide how much you are happy for her to be involved and where the boundaries are and then you and DH set these boundaries with her? Or does it just feel too bad and you find it too hard to have any contact?

Somehow with mine, she appreciates the involvement I let her have with DCs more than she did because one SIL will hardly let her have any with hers since she had children (after me, I was the first to do it). I feel more secure now I've been their mother longer, that my relationship with my DCs is unique and she can't replace me and I don't feel so in competition with her. It has all drifted along and got better with her being less interfering and me being less possessive. She is getting used to her new role over time as grandparent rather than mother. Do you think your MIL might or is she more extreme?

Re my FIL, I now feel clear that what I must do is tell him to stop next time he does something I don't like and that this will really help me feel better about past things as well. I still feel scared about doing it but I will talk to people/therapist about doing it and imagine myself doing it until the thought of it feels less scarey. I saw a friend last night who had a similar thing with her FIL and she said once she had made up her mind she was going to say something, he didn't actually do it again, as though there was something in her aura which he could see that he wouldn't be able to get away with it.

I've been remembering what all his family are like with each other and I've seen both his parents touch DH in ways that 'surprised' me and DH didn't bat an eyelid and just thinks it is their way of being close and affectionate. The worst time was when I bought DH some jeans and he tried them on to show his parents. It was the second time I had met his parents. His Mum marched up to him, grabbed him round the bollocks and said (in posh voice) "Is there room for your penis in those?"!!!!!!!!!

It is such a contrast to my family where nobody touched anyone at all and the only times I was touched seemed to be in a perverted or aggressive way. So DH thinks physical contact is good and I think it is bad because of our respective upbringings.

I feel so that I was too scared to blow raspberries on my babies tummies incase it was misconstrued. Even when no one was there.

A hard thing to swallow is the summer before the abuse started, I was at my Nana's house. The foster family had all gone on a cruise. I was awful to my Nana as I just did not want to go back to the house. My SW finally listened and said I had to go back for 2 weeks and if I was still unhappy I could move. That is when he abused me. Why could she just have let me move straight away? Ironically, apart from that it was the happiest two weeks I had had in the years I was there as I knew I was going and they didn't.

Is there anything you have read on here that you have thought was subtle bad parenting on my part? I won't be offended and would appreciate any suggestions.

Slightly off topic, hubby, DS2 and me were just in a shop when I heard the check out girl say ".....I would sexually abuse him if....." I asked her if she didn't mind using words like that as there was a 3 year old here. "I didn't see him, did I?" and she carried on shouting at me so I pointed out I was the customer "Whatever." At that point I put my shopping on the counter and walked out telling her it wasn't appropriate words to be using. OTT on my part?

Itati, I hope you didn't think I was accusing you of subtly bad parenting, I wasn't, I was just going on my own experience and knowing that I have made mistakes with my children which is what prompted me to go to therapy.

I don't think raspberry blowing on the tummy is bad, I do that a lot! Mine are still only 5 and 3. I tickle the children and grapple with them while pretending to be a monster, that sort of thing, I just don't touch them in sexual places or in a sexual way. DH slaps DS's bum a lot and I feel uncomfortable with that and have asked him to stop (in return I have had to stop burping in front of the children and using bad grammar/dropping my consonants ).

I worry about washing the kids in the bath because they need to have their bums and bits washed (my kids get smelly and I only bath them once a week). I try to use a sponge or something so I'm not directly touching them but I worry if I'm doing something wrong or not.

It sounds like it was bad in your foster home even without the abuse. Being fostered has probably affected you as well as the abuse. I know being adopted has affected my feelings about myself.

I don't like it when people joke about sexual abuse or use the words lightly either. I think people who do this just aren't thinking about what they are saying much, they aren't trying to upset people, but if you complaining to that girl will make her think about what she says then that is a good thing. I don't think I would be brave enough to be as assertive as you.

Not at all!

Hubby tells our older two to wash themelves but I wash all the children as they don't do it right and we don't have sponges and sometimes all the flannels are in the wash so I have been known to wash their bottoms just with hands. I might buy some sponges actually. I was told they weren't hygenic so haven't done so.

AN- just wanted to say you are doing the right thing setting the boundary you have with the letter to your brother.
The boundaries you have set are fair and justified.

My first thought was that you probably feel afraid and anxious by doing this because you were not allowed to stand up to him as a kid as that would have meant physical pain for you.

However I pondered some more and I might be completely off here but could the possibility of rejection by your brother be a trigger to these feelings?

It occurred to me that for you, being rejected by your birth parents would have been incredibly painful for you.
That you probably carried this with you into your new family and was so desperate to 'not be rejected' by them that that fact is what made you then vulnerable to the abuse.

Its just a thought.

And by the way Im not saying you 'allowed' anything to happen as it did in order to be loved or accepted. YOU were a child and did NOTHING wrong but your abuser may well have seen this vulnerability in you and prayed upon it(((((an))))))

I so do relate to your current feelings because I have them too at this minuite.
Standing up to my mum is putting me in touch with all my anxieties.
Rejection is key with me also because my mother did reject me over and over again and I desperately wanted it not to be the case, and would allow all sorts of crap in order to get close her.

Hi everyone, haven't posted yet on this thread (I think!) but am feeling the need for some reassurance that what is going on is still crap, iyswim. My mother is revealing her inner toxic bitch quite a lot recently. It's really getting me down though I am fighting to keep the confidence I somehow gained when we moved further away the other week.

She didn't want us to move - background is her having 'rescue' fantasies about ds1, wanting to be his saviour from a bad, unloving mother (like hers was) although she admits this occasionally and also that I do not fit this persona. (Thank God!)

We moved about 2 miles away at the beginning of July. It's a bigger place with a huge garden in a nice street. It's not one minutes' walk from her, is the major problem here. This has been coming out in various ways. First the objections based on our 'shared' car which her and Dad very kindly bought to enable me to get ds1 to school last autumn - I told them at the time I hadn't decided if we would stick with school or HE, but this was dismissed with a 'Oh the car'll be useful anyway, don't worry' and we have also deregistered lately after a year of reception, which didn't go down too well
Then she started coming out with all sorts of snidey little remarks towards me in front of Ds. I pulled her up on this. Then she and Dad offered to help move stuff from our old place - which they did but then she burst into tears saying 'I can't stand it, there's so much stuff, it isn't normal' well, yes, we did have a lot of stuff, probably rather more cluttered than some people, but not three thousand back copies of Picture Post or anything. And surprisingly enough after four or five car loads of stuff have now gone to the tip or been given away, our flat is lovely and spacious. (she says so too - we had no attic before so of course the old cot etc got under our feet till next baby arrived!)
Anyway I digress. She is just totally intent on finding ways to make me feel utterly awful. Which is odd as I suddenly have felt filled with bursting confidence and as though I am finally allowed to assume my role as a mother, I am even folding the laundry (this never happened down the road from her - I couldn't, she didn't want me to be a grown up - does that make sense?) Also I felt so angry with her when we were there that I kind of rebelled and it was always a tip.
She had to be the lead parent, in every sense - taking ds1 to her house, doing secret naughty things mummy would never allow, the usual stuff. Making me feel like uber-shit mother. So I gave up and was that shit mother. I knew we had to get out,. but was never sure if it was that necessary till we did it and BOY the backlash. Eventually I talked with her about what was going on, and she said that she did feel miserable, wasn't sleeping, couldn't stand the feeling of never having ds on her own territory, I was always there vetoing everything (Yes, I am his mother, it is my house?) and she felt bereaved of her role. She pretty much admitted needing me to be in a role of terrible parent/housewife, so she could feel close to my son. So I took away her power by coping.

This all made me totally more sure than ever that we did the right thing moving away (not far but it makes all the difference!)
But she still wants to visit a few times a week. I don't want this though ds1 misses her. So am trying to decide what to do about that - thinking maybe once a week or if I need her to have the boys for dentist trip or something, then one morning at the weekend with her and dad (less toxic).

Yesterday she decided she wants the car back one day and two nights a week, which means leaving her bike here for two nights when she collects it. This all seems like she's trying to reestablish a physical tie and some control/presence...it was agreed before that we would have the car and I'd pay for stuff like tax, MOT etc. which they were paying (as a bribe? to keep me there - she did admit this too!)

I told her I thought there was more to the car thing and she is discussing it with dad but 1) she NEVER used it when we lived there, so it is all a bit odd (she hates driving) and 2) it means she isn't happy about us having it which makes me feel like I would be happier giving it back full stop - but she wouldn't want it back anyway so it's ridiculous!
I do feel a sense of dependancy on it anyway as I've nobody to help out if one of them is ill or I am (like the other night) so a car is useful to have. Especially as I cn't depend on my parents being nearby now - I think this has a bearing. She wants to take that back so I need her again, and will be punished for moving further away if suddenly we do need her help.
Sorry for this long ramble - please do ignore, I just needed to get it all down somewhere before I went completely mad.
Thanks if you have read it, I have read a few of everyone's posts, sounds like some similarities with all this.

Phew, feel better now!

Oh and a real classi - when I told her I had taken ds out of school, finally, she went on and on about how it would be a good thing if social services put him on he child protection register as not going to school makes a good case for emotional neglect.

Thanks mum, that's so supportive.

Flight - Your mum sounds very controlling-
But I think you are beginning to realise this aren't you.

She is using manipulation in order to keep you dependant on her. Using guilt and threats of taking things from you is very controlling and not what a normal loving mother would do.

You say yourself your confidence is burgeoning since the move. So the answer is right there...the further away (mentally and physically) from your mother's grip you get the better it will be for you (and your son)

Gold star for what you have achieved so far. Dont underestimate how difficult it is to achieve what you have already.
With regard to your son, you really need to take back control here immediately, which you are doing.
Because your son does have a strong bond with her you do need to do this bit by bit. So I agree going down to one day will be a good start, and I would definately make sure those visits are at 'your' house under 'your' supervision. He is your son and you and you alone are the most important influence in his life.
My mil is a lot like this and I had to reduce contact...its been gradually and now its down to one day a week (currently not every week even) and that day is now with me.
With regard to the car, its a difficult one. It is another form of control. My dad gave me a car and then took it off me when we said we were moving away. I vowed recently I wouldnt accept any financial help off them again, because they were never helping me and that was never their intention....but to get me to do what they wanted me too.
Can you afford to get a small loan and buy a car? Can you have a word with you dad and tell him you want to pay monthly for the car until it is yours?
I think if you can manage it this would be another huge breakthrough for you in breaking the hold over you your mother has.

BTW- I was particularly disturbed by the underlying 'threat' your mother is making about social services...this is particularly shocking, and I think you must have this threat foremost in your mind whenever you have doubts about your actions.

Thanks Smithfield, I really appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I had started to doubt my own sanity, she is trying so, so hard to bring me back down and every time I sense she is winning/feeling in control again it shakes me up.
Well done for breaking down the MIL visits. That sounds way better, I was in the garden just now chopping some brambles and wondered exactly why I have been letting this all happen - I've been under a diagnosis of sever depression for years, not regarded as capable of work etc and all the time maybe it was me playing the role she wanted me in, because I needed her, and she needed me

For the first time in ages and ages, I think I actually can be Ok, maybe - it's scary as it's been so long, but why ever shouldn't I be Ok. I know I couldn't get a job just yet as we're trying the HE and also baby is just a year, and I don't have a partner - but in time I'd love to go back to work.

The night she said that about SS she was just rambling a load of crap basically, she knew it, I knew it, she wouldn't really report me to them but she was trying to work it all out in her head and she is so screwed up frankly that it was a real tangle, and nothing I even wanted to hear. It was a load of utter shite really. So I didn't take it seriously.

It was also said in a way that was so almost 'innocent', like she didn't understand that it sounded extremely inappropriate, it wasn't like an aggressive threat as you might imagine - just a sort of 'pondering' as she tried to think what was best for him. Oh and that health visitors ought to put two and two together that I am 'depressed' and that he is not at school, and be concerned for his wellbeing.

I am kind of beyond that sort of nonsense even getting to me now, she has said things like that so much it means nothing, as I am quite aware (consciously anyway) how ridiculous it is. It just makes me think 'Oh shut up you loon!' but actually added up everything does turn into a sort of festering thing where I doubt my self worth and ability to be a parent.

I lie awake being angry with her then ring her as normal the next morning, and she comes round. Why does that happen? Why domn't I just say no? I suppose I am afraid of it being my fault if things all go wrong and the children die of rickets or lack of playdates or something. I really need it to be her fault and taking the saying no thing on board is extremely hard to do for some reason.

I had thought about buying the car from them, will talk to Dad - he is sensible with these things. Moreso than she is, anyway

Thanks again x

Flight- Its because she taught you as a child that to say no to her would mean she would withdraw from you in some way. So as a kid you thought you had to let her carry on or lose your mum. A very scary prospect to a kid.

My mum did it all the time, constant undermining, and constant threats. She was never physically or verbally loving (in fact the opposite) so I thought if I let her control me I could get closer to her. At the same time this ripped at my self esteem, broke my confidence which fed her and so on and so forthe the cycle continues.

The depression-yes- what you say is very insightful. I have suffered the illness since a teen. I am lucky as it wasnt severe enough (although at times it was - lost a job over it etc) to keep a level of functioning.
I think I realise now that whenever I stood independantly from my parents they withdrew from me completely so I would sink into depression- i.e make myself incapable and a mess so they would come back into my physical sphere and love me/control me again.
Also there is probably a part of me that believed I couldnt cope.

My mil is more like your mum though, as it is all dressed up in niceness and wanting to help, but is really pervasive especially with the Dcs.

BTW I know your mum wouldnt of said it aggressively . It is just the fact she says it at all. The constant grinding down and undermining of your decisions, I just meant to use you son as a means to manipulate was particulaerly shocking.

Interesting how you jump to defend her though Its ok been there too .

Dont doubt your sanity please flight....you are right....this has gone on far too long. You dont want to look back at your life filled with anger and regret over what you could have done but didnt do because you were crippled by your mothers needs.

Come on here for reassurance whenever you need to. Thats what I do.

My mums stalking me atm

Eek, I did a bit didn't I, I mean defend her - she really is pretty manipulative I think and also has no boundaries. Whatsoever
What is your mum doing in terms of the stalking? It sounds horrible. One thing I dread about times when I feel better is the way she will still try and get in touch. My sister moved 300 miles away, she has the right idea...can't bear it visiting as Mum is so scared of her, looks up to her if you like - she always has done though, she never respected me very much from the start.

Thanks so much for the support. I think I would go a bit doolally without MN at the moment.

Hi Flllight, the whole underlyingly (think I might just have invented a new word here ) threatening threat of reporting you to SS (and calling me a bad mother) was what finally woke me up to what kind of people my parents are. Without consulting my husband (or them) which is a huge thing - I, me, took a decision without asking somebody's permission, I calmly said to them that I needed a 6 months break from them (which has now turned into over 2 years).
I can see why that might not be so appealing to you, if (did you change your name?) you are a single mum.
If you live in Edinburgh, I am willing to help you with babysitting or a listening ear. I work flexi time so it is easier for me to go to dentists etc.
P.S. sorry can't proof read as I am at work .....working hard

Flight- Like I say come on here any time you feel you might think you are going doolally.
It IS 'her' not you. Its a generational thing, someone did this to her so she does it to you ect. You need to break the cycle.

Our mums are different creatures but the subtext is the same CONTROL. My mum had no interest in controllong my dcs, she is only interested in 'me', infact I think she is jelous of the attention ds gets, which is why she pays him little attention when has seen him.

The stalking- she is calling my house and witholding her number-Every day- she only calls during the day because she knows Im alone with th Dc's.

I rang BT and they have put a temp block on anonymous calls, which means If she wants to call she will have to stop witholding her number (caller ID also installed for same reason). Oh dear this will make her really .
Never mind

Well done for getting that done Smithfield. You are taking control.
More dances around singing "Go Smithfield, go Smithfield"

Golly Smithy. She does sound utterly barking
Isn't it sad when we find ourselves having to be the adult - which is in the end how they see us I think - mine always compares me to her mum, while yours sounds like she wants to be the baby and the focus in every situation.
That's a real shame for your DC as well. Well done with caller ID and getting the block in place. I have caller ID already but somehow need to stop feeling the need to converse with her. I hung up the other night saying 'let's not tlk about this now, goodbye' as she was falling into a steady twang of criticism/despair/tears on me and I could not take it. This resulted in silence for two days from her and next time we met up 'for the boys' she was sulky as a dry fish. I had to apologise

Worst thing is I take it out on myself or the children when she has gone. It sucks doesn;'t it. Breaking the cycle - I know, still wobbly on how exactly to do this and especially as I like the idea that my kids have a grandma...however it isn't always worth the price we all pay.

Flllight you got here so pleased to see you here and having moved away from your mother...she likes her control doesn't she . You know, I thought my mum was mad but yours... can we have a competition? Most manipultive controlling mother award? Then get a local tv station go to their house with cameras/lights etc, big sign 'Most Manipultive Mum' and ring door bell ..what I would pay to have that happen

Itati - I feel so privileged you trusted us enough to tell us your something you had hidden for so long. Fourteen is only a child still...I did not know the facts of life till I had my first sexual experience at 16...not a clue what was normal and what wasn't. Remember it was not your fault what happened, it was wrong, the offender would know it was wrong, and you are left with the legacy to this day . You are being so brave to go to court over this, the only one who should be feeling ashamed and guilty is the offender, not you. Which is easy for me to say, I know. But perhaps try for some righteous anger? My therapist, in relation to my mother always trying to hug me against my will (different situ, I know) used to encourage me to push out with my nands/arms and say louder and louder 'get OFF me!'...I have also read in cases of sexual abuse, sometimes it is helpful to kick a pillow with your feet?...something like that and say something as well...problem is finding a quiet time where there is no one around to hear you. xx

Smithfield...nice one she will be fuming. PITA stalking isn't it? Freaks you out, hems you in, makes you sad/angry, makes you feel that you should run back and apologise and be a good girl again . My mums going through a quiet patch at the moment...next contact will be...hmm september/october...at least she is quite regular. I get freaked out for about 2 weeks after contact then all is quite until the next time...its about every 3 months she trys. December/Mar and apr/july/sep or oct.

Anyways...about me me me...guess where ALL my midwife appt's are? Used to be in my town...now in my mother and fathers town...and best of all! Just opposite where they live. Bloody bloody goverment cut backs! so fecking . Car park where it is is generally v busy so have to park on road outside, meaning more chance of bumping into family again bastards Every single time I go to their town I get v unhappy and uncomfortable...now I'm going to have to do it on a regular basis when I'm PG dammit! AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Used to go to same place to the bf clinic...in about 9 mths saw my dad about twice and he never saw me thank goodness. I was thinking this time round I won't go to bf clinic, was happy with thought of that...now GOT to go .

Got to go get tea ready now...and paint some banners (not that a diff govt would make a difference all the same!)

A very very very CROSS Ally from oup noarth.

Hi Smithfield, Flllight,
My counselor recently recommended a book to me about breaking the generational cycles. It is called "Parenting from the Inside Out" by Daniel Siegel and Mary Hartzell. From the back comer verbage: "...explores the extent to which our childhood experiences shape the way that we parent." I've only read the first chapter so far, but I do think it might be helpful for you (us). Available on Amazon.

My news: my MIL is coming to visit! It started out that dh was going to give her his free ticket to fly over and use his miles to have one of his sisters come with her. But then...
His other sister had to come and then a niece had to come and then another niece had to come (boundaries DH??). Everyone has to come see the baby (FIL is staying home to care for the dogs). So 5 people are coming and we are putting them up in a hotel.
I am used to being 'invisible' to them when we drive to their house (512 miles). But it is going to be hard to take if they treat me that way in my own home. (Background: she has come only once before in 1992 when ds was born and she stayed 3 hours. - Counselor ) It can be along the lines of mil and daughters on a team and I am the outsider, thus easy target. No win situation for me, so I detach. I have made progress through the years in that I now have no expectations from them and I do not need mil's aproval. I am trying to put my mind in the position of: They are coming- so what? They have judged me before and I know they don't like me much. I guess I am stressed at the possibility that they will judge me more in my own home. Why would location matter? So what? again. I need a "Don't Care Bear".

So I do have some anxiety-mine comes in the form of an irritable bowel. (Maybe I'll lose a pound or two? )
I am not a party girl/super hostess and do not have a roster of events lined up for them. DH is taking time off of work while they are here so I will let him be head diplomat (he thinks his mom is a bit bonkers).
Thanks for listening.

Smithfield: congrats on managing your mom. Your time of stress following the contact reminded me of Post Tramautic Stress Disorder. I don't know if that would apply to you or not but it might be worth looking into to find some potential tips on resolution and recovery.

Need to catch with with the last couple of days posting but wanted to post something positive. (Cross posted in parenting too)

My daughter is 5 next week and today we have been out on her bike with the stabilisers off. She did so well and rode quite a long way on her own. She got her self going and even turned half a circle safely. I am so proud of her and really enjoyed doing it with her.

Flight, You are NOT going mad, your mother is trying to brainwash you (I don't think that is too strong a word) into thinking you can't cope with your life or with being a mother. She is doing it because she wants your son for herself so she can feel like "the no.1 Mummy" (a phrase I have used in a previous post). This seems really clear to me from reading your posts! My instinctive feeling for you is get as far away from her with as little contact as possible!

It is truly awful that she tries to destroy her own daughter's spirit and cause you to have depression severe enough you can't work(!) just because she seems scared that you are more important than her because you are a mother (and her own children have left home so she doesn't have the same role any more). She only seems to care about herself. I feel really angry on your behalf.

Your son has got used to lots of contact with you so I agree with Smithfield that you should cut it down gradually for his sake, and also that you should do it in your house under your control.

But please do all you can to create more and more distance from her because if you allow her to get into your head just a little bit she will make you doubt yourself, then work and work on you to make you believe you are incapable and need her.

You DON'T need her. It must be difficult doing it all on your own but think about all the times you HAVE coped when she has not been there and make up your mind you CAN do it. Don't let her destroy you for her own gain, she isn't doing it for your good, only her own.

Try to make the most of your relationships with other good people you have in your life and use them as your support and let them replace her. Make an effort to meet new people as well. She will have less power over you if you truly believe you do not need her.

I'm getting the impression that there is something in common with a lot your situations (Smithfield, Ally, StuffedBears, More, Flight) - your parent wants to use you to make them feel more important and have put themselves first, never you, and you are left feeling unimportant and doubting your own strengths. Don't let them destroy you like this in order to make themselves feel better. It makes me really angry. Find people who care about YOU and decide you don't need their life sucking influence in your life.

I talk 'tough' sometimes but am worried about how much of a drip I am recently. When I read one of your posts Smithfield, it made me think, I have always been scared to make anyone angry with me or upset anyone or hurt anyone or say what I want or don't want. Was it a strategy not to get rejected again - an instinct from the early experience of being left by birthmother? And yes I was careful not to make bro angry so he wouldn't hurt me so this reinforced it.

And now I seem to put up with some people who annoy me/upset me and I'm scared to upset them because I seem to think any relationships/connections, even if they are a bit crap, are better than no relationships. I don't seem to pick and choose who I want in my life based on standards I have for how I want to be treated, I seem to think I have to take what I can get. I need more self respect. If I felt confident I could find and build new relationships maybe I wouldn't be so scared of standing up for myself when it might risk losing that relationship.

Ally, you a Northerner???

Thanks AN, I am really afraid that you're right. I can't imagine not having anything to do with her as we have spoken most days for the last 5 years really. I've told her most things and she can be very supportive if it is something she has an interest in, or believes in - but even then it is sometimes rather skewed so that although she seems to be on my side, she will not really be, or it'll be turned/used against me another time. For instance I had trouble with the benefits people when I had my medical, and she was very cross with them saying 'how can they not see that you are terribly ill' etc etc which was in a way something I needed help with (as I was very depressed, and failed the medical thing so had to go to appeal) but also was a bit of a backhanded thing, like she was trying to make me utterly convinced that I was at the bottom of the hole and would never get out.
Or she will say if I complain about a long, difficult day with ds1, 'But you said you don't play with him, how can he be Ok if you never speak to him?' when all I've said before was that I sometimes spend time on the computer or feel preoccupied so he doesn't always have one on one play with me.
She will twist it all iyswim. It's actually very hurtful.
I've started to get real friends in the last year or two, sadly they live near her/our old house, but I am still seeing them and will continue to do so. I am trying to let them replace her but she is so manipulative that she has got me thinking I can (and must) tell her everything as she will always be on my side - that's really untrue. She is often anything but.
It is so pervasive what she does. I need to struggle very hard to keep my head above water with it sometimes.

God I am glad I moved away. I hope it isn't too late for ds1. He has really suffered due to the tension between us and my anger against her. I've been a pretty rubbish mother so far, maybe because she wanted me to be, and finally I feel I can be better but he is already five and a bit troubled...well, she tells me he is anyway

Thanks for the messages, I really do need you lot. You're a great bunch