"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

AN- I was just on my may out but I felt I 'had' to respond to this; which I will quickly, then I will come back and write more.

What makes me feel really about this is that these gestures happened after dh had told FIL about your past (uhm which I also think was inappropriate, but will stick to the issue at hand).

YOU were not comfortable with these things??? With or without your background a FIL behaving in such a sexually provocative way is wrong wrong wrong.

I get the impression you dont have this kind of relationship with him, and he has begun behaving like this 'since' being told your history which is quite shocking frankly. Insensitive at best.....at worst???

It is highly inappropriate (IMO) in any situation and I think very disrespectful to you AN.

Im sure someone else will be along soon to say the same.

AN- Did your husband say anything to his dad? I think he should if he hasnt done?

Its not your fault you froze either ...I can imagine how shaken you must have felt (((((((AN)))))).

Lesnuits- I want to respond to you too quickly and will come back with more later.
BUT AN is right....none of this is your fault! ((((((lesnuits))))))

He has always been like this, just seemed to stop temporarily after DH told him stuff. The worst thing he did I think was when he was showing me something on his computer in his study and he pulled me onto his lap to look at the screen. I didn't want to sit there but didn't know how to get away without seeming unfriendly.

When I was pregnant with DS we went on holiday with DH's family to Portugal. Early in the morning FIL used to come in and say good morning, fling open the blinds and kiss us both as we lay in bed. He was wearing boxers and t shirt. I was wearing hardly anything because it was really hot, so just grabbed the sheet up over me when I heard him coming in. I had morning sickness, felt knackered and him coming in doing a sloppy kiss first thing in the morning just wasn't what I needed. DH thinks this is normal behaviour and that I was overreacting when I said to DH I didn't like it.

Lesnuits - So you could never do right for doing wrong? Were you the family scapegoat? Do you know that we pick partners and friends because they remind us of a family relationship, and even if our family treated us badly we feel comfortable when we meet someone who reminds us of that relationship. So its not surprising you have many relationship problems now. YOur dad lifting your skirt on the way out was very wrong...sexually suggestive if nothing else. I can't imagine the trauma of seeing your mother beat up your father...and what that does for your relationships. Your sister talking about you all being adopted shows there was no security in your childhood? Which is very important, infact vital to a happy child. I'm very glad you found this thread and have spoken out...and that you broke contact...well done you for getting this far and without support from the sounds of it. Please keep posting

AN, you are NOT overreacting! Its your body and your personal space and YOU decide what is okay and not okay. Your dh is not you and cannot tell what is okay with you and what is not.

Obviously we can only guess at your FIL's actions and what he means by it. I personally would have thought after your dh had told him about your gf that would have made him v cautious around you and aware that you may feel uncomfortable. However if he is one of these old male twunts who likes to goose women to give himself a bit of a kick then you should not worry about his feelings! Or your dh's. Your body, your decision. Your MIL seems to be shocked by his actions too, which must reassure you in some way that you are not imagining it.

FWIW my ex bf dad pinched my bum once...it was only once...I called him a pervert (maybe not most adult thing to do )...my bf was v v unhappy about it...but I was horrified that his dad would do that to his own sons gf who was about 30 years his junior!! YANBU to stop this behaviour. Putting his hands on your waist, leaning over you, pulling you onto his lap! all this makes me a bit ugh! feeling...and its not me its happening too, and I do not have your background.

So what to do. Tell dh you do not feel comfortable with his dad's behaviour and you don't want it to happen anymore and you would like him to support you. Next time FIL does anything that makes you approaching uncomfortable either move away from the situation or 'I rather you didn't do that, thanks' if he presses the point and gets jokey (as those 'types' do) or says your sensitive...respond with 'I don't need to give reasons, I just do not feel comfortable, please don't do it again.'

Just debating whether it would be an idea for your dh to say something again...but having said it once...he's still being a twat so is there any point going there again? It may even get to the stage that if he continues despite your standing up for yourself you may have to refuse to meet up with him and your children only with supervision...sounds extreme and your fil has no convictions but given your background with your gf...my god I'm astounded over again how insensitive he is being! I know one of my friends was sexually abused by a family friend, and now she is separated from dp, when dd goes to stay she makes him swear never to have male friends to stay at the same time.

This is the last thing you need AN...your dh needs a wake up call on this one...I'm just worried you feel too powerless at the memories to actually be able to say anything to your FIL...but if you said something that would be taking back some control?

((((((AN))))))

AN- I think what it boils down to is this; If 'you' are not comfortable with certain behaviours then you are 'just' not comfortable. YOU have a right to express that and be heard. By both your dh and FIL.

YANBU. I wouldnt feel comfortable with anything you described and it screams that there is a lack of boundaries between FIL and you, but also FIL and DH.

Just as your abuse made you normalise stuff that happened to you (which is why you are questioning this now), dh may 'believe' this is normal becuase his father may have always (probably 'has' always) crossed these boundaries with his son.

It sounds 'very' invasive to me. Totally lacking in respect for you as his sons wife also.

You will need to find a way of broaching this with DH. But I think this is going to be hard for you??

Do you think you are up to tackling it?

It really isnt right AN, and you shouldnt be made to feel 'so' uncomfortable in your own home. Or on holiday whilst pg either

x-posted with Ally (hello ally .

Great post. Absolutely agree with what she is saying.

And I have to say yes I felt the same reading both your posts as Ally did....ugh!

Laughed at the bit about FIL possibly being an ' old male twunt who likes to goose women..'.

AN

WOuld heartily agree with all that Ally and Smithfield have written. I haven't come from an sexually abusive background but to me FIL's behaviour sounds abusive - at the very least it is about power and control. If it's making you feel uncomfortable then it is and you have every right to express your disgust.

I am wondering also if your DH and MIL are in denial re this man's behaviour. I am also wondering whether your FIL has any convictions for indecent behaviour.

AN,

You may also want to contact this organisation as well if you haven't already:-

www.napac.org.uk

I need your advise guys too .

I had another call this morning, but this time I just hung up. She is witholding her number, and from now on I wont answer if there is no number. I kind of knew it was her but I had just txt my friend in oz so I took a chance.

I am still filled with anxiety and panic, even before the call and I know its all linked, but I feel I have to be strong and act now as I cannot afford to crack up in front of my children. They need me.

I have to give myself what I need to get through this and so I have got a double gp appointment for wed. I feel very in a way that I will be asking to go back onto Ad's but I think it is for the best. I need to get my level of functioning up and catch it now before it drops too low.
The reason Im saying this is I think this is a cycle for me- a reaction to standing up to my mum. I will explain this further in a bit.

I will also ask the gp for some counselling. It may be a waste of time but you never know. If it is we will just have to bite the bullet and pay for counselling again.

I dont think I am being negative? but thinking I must start empowering myself. Equipping myself to deal with all this.

As I said earlier I think this is a pattern for me.

A while back I wrote about leaving home then coming back, leaving then coming back. I think the leaving (which she didnt want and always did 'everything' in her power to stop me) was me standing up to her. However once I had I would then fall apart and end up back home.
At the time I would blame this on - work, relationship....but I never made the connection. Subconciously I was disobeying her.

An example - I went up against her to go into nursing when I was 18. I did it to get away from her. She refused to let me go to uni, and so this was a way of leaving home and studying but earning money so she would have no way of stopping me.

After I started the job I had really bad panic attacks (hyperventilating), insomnia, and what I realise now was very bad depression.

So on a final note- and some advise here would be good. I am also thinking of sending a letter to my mother. I will not do it until I feel strong enough . I feel it would maybe empower me to do so? If you think it may feed her what she wants then I will re-think

Here is the letter. I wanted to keep it short and to the point.

BTW I have never addressed her in this manner before.

Anyway sorry this is so long; let me know your thoughts...many thanks S xx

I am writing to tell you that I would like to be given some space for the time being.

I thought I had made this clear to you but you still persist in calling me.

Each time you call I tell you that it is not a good time to speak and you disregard what I?m saying and continue to try and have the conversation regardless.

I have two young children to tend to and my focus is 100% with them currently.

If you can not show me enough respect to honor my current wishes or to end a conversation when asked that speaks volumes.

I will not allow my children to have contact with someone that clearly feels that this is how I 'can' be treated.

It is not.

You do not have any ?rights? as a grandparent, so taking such an aggressive stance is not going to gain you any ground whatsoever.

Your referral to my ?having the only granddaughter? is emotionally blackmailing.

You have made it clear you are only interested in your own needs being met.

Smithfield

Ive just re-read it and it sounds very aggressive. And it probably would be feeding her.

Im not sure what to do. I thought the letter would help, but I dont think it will having read it back.

Felt good writing it though

I feel like I am cowering a bit in a corner waiting for the phone to ring. But maybe this is enough of a stand and I just have to go through it.

Quick reply before I collect DD from holiday club and take her to ballet then collect DS from nursery....

Smithfield, I don't think there is any shame in going on ADs. It sounds like you have got it worked out that that's what you need to break the next bit of the cycle, where you have gone back on your resolve because of the panic etc, and got back in contact with mother. Going on ADs sounds like a sensible plan. You aren't just masking your problems with ADs because you are working out your problems at the same time.

re letter - have you ever sent her a letter where you described things she did in detail and how it affected you and explained that is the reason you find contact with her now hard? If you don't she could be in so much denial that she really thinks she doesn't understand why you are not allowing contact. The rest of what you wrote in your post sounds really good and assertive. I am a great believer in letters as the person can read to the end without interrupting or changing the subject and you have time to think about your wording so you feel they will understand properly.

I feel really guilty that I have 'slagged' my FIL off and made him seem like a filthy old pervert. If you met him you would not get this impression. He has never done anything wrong in that way to anyone. He is kind and friendly and caring, intelligent etc and normally treats people with respect. I don't think he thinks much about what he is doing and doesn't seem to know there is anything wrong with it. I think he would be very upset if he knew that I was upset by it. Yet I don't feel it is normal behaviour and you on MN have said you wouldn't feel it was normal if it happened to you. I think DH thinks it is normal because this is how FIL has always been.

I will keep thinking on what you have said. Hope you don't mind if I post again about it later to get my head straight.

Hi Smithfield,

((((((((((((smithfield)))))))))

Am glad you felt good writing such a letter but do not send this to her; now you've written it I'd shred it. Infact do not communicate with her at all.

GPs can suggest a counsellor but would bear in mind that the waiting list to see such a person may be quite long. It is still worth asking the GP about this though. I would also look at the BACP (British Association for Counselling and Pyschotherapy) website as they have a list of registered counsellors.

Your Mother never wanted you to grow up; she wanted and still wants to keep you dependent on her. That is not love; its control. Controlling is abuse. She still wants to undermine you and your confidence. Why, well who knows really. She made bad life choices but she made those decisions. You are not responsible for her actions and never have been. Both she and your Dad let you down badly as a child, not just to say your siblings as well as they're all affected by their actions too.

Would also look into getting an answering machine asap.

Attila x

AN- I will probably be on later so post away.

You dont have to apologise, maybe 'our' reactions were quite strong because we care about you and feel protective over you.

I dont think you should spare your FIL's feelings however, in lieu of your own.

Maybe he really doesnt understand the impact of his actions, and as Ally said we cant know what goes on in his mind.

In the same respect, neither can he know what is in yours. If it causes you discomfort, you do have a right to say so and ask him to stop.

Also, he is still being very insensitive to what he knows of your past.

I think my repeating what Ally said and saying it was funny was probably what made you feel bad....sorry AN....but know that if I ever say anything that makes you uncomfortable say so and I wont mind

Its ok to tell people if they cross your boundaries. (says she...that has same issues!)

're letter - have you ever sent her a letter where you described things she did in detail and how it affected you and explained that is the reason you find contact with her now hard? If you don't she could be in so much denial that she really thinks she doesn't understand why you are not allowing contact. The rest of what you wrote in your post sounds really good and assertive. I am a great believer in letters as the person can read to the end without interrupting or changing the subject and you have time to think about your wording so you feel they will understand properly.'

AN- I have tried many times to tell my mother why I am so angry with her. I have given her examples of her abuse and its affect on me.

She has the classic toxic reponses Im afraid, so it is rather like banging my head against a wall, watching it bleed, then banging again.

The point is she doesnt 'care' how I feel about anything...she never has and never will. I have finally accepted that.
I dont think any amount of contact in any shape or form will change that.

Having said that I do think I am ready to maybe write 'the letter'. I think it would be very cathartic.

Atilla - I wont be sending the above mentioned though either. I know you are right.

Not convinced about the answerphone as she may well take to leaving long angry messages.

Itati - Really feel for you having all your past dug up and rereading probably not the best times of your life diaries can really take you back to bad places. Would it help to post on this thread (changing any important details) your feelings/thoughts...even if it does not make much sense to you or us at least you won't be 'alone' dealing with it? We can help support you through the court case...I think you are extremely brave to be doing this...very courageous (even if you may not feel it) I'm sure it will help others too. Do you have to actually go to court and face the person? xx

Above is quoting Ally90. I haven't been on this thread for a bit as not felt up to it.

My DH said to me last night that I really need to get on and read the diaries as we can't win the case without them but he knows I have been putting them off and why. He also said he can't do it for me. I would hate him to change how he felt about me if he read what I had written. He said he wouldn't.

I am utterly convinced I will have to go to court and will have to face him as he will deny everything and make me go over it all over again. That is almost as bad as the abuse and I worry people will hear what he did and say is that all? When I think about what he did to me I still shiver and bang my legs together and it is over 22 years since.

In parts of my diary when I was 17 I was living with a foster family and also occasionally seeing my birth mother. At one point I had written that I wanted to go and live with her. There had been at least 3 or 4 occasions when I had wanted to go and life with her and her partner and he had said no each time.

Congrats on the baby too

AN

I feel quite sick and very at reading what your FIL has been doing and want you to know you do not have to wuestion how you felt. You didn't feel okay therefore it isn't okay.

I would tell him you do not wish oto be touched by him in any way and if he can't speak nicely without making stupid inappropriate comments he is not welcome in your house.

I hate to say it but it made me feel like he thought it would be okay as you had been abused when younger.

I am so sorry.

Do you have something that you have only talked about once to one person in the whole world, but you really want to tell someone else so they can say it is normal and doesn't make you a freak? [ashamed]

itati- If you would like to say something you will not be judged for it I promise. You will only find acceptance and support.

If you feel it will help you. You really sound like you could do with as much support as you can get right now.

It truly is awful and I can't see how anyone (no offence) would just accept it without saying hurtful things. I also worry about some less supoprtive people seeing it and passing comment.

The person I said about didn't bat an eyelid when I told him and understood perfectly but it is years later and I hate it now.

No-one who posts on here regularly would say hurtful things I promise.

((((((itati)))))Most people who gravitate toward this thread, regulars and otherwise do so because they have experienced similar things.

They have had alot of pain in their lives and no validation for that pain.

I for one would be 'very' and disapointed if anyone said hurtful to 'anyone' that posted something that was clearly very difficult for them to share, but they were being brave enough to do so.

We would defend you, absolutely if that happened 100%.

But you must only post if 'you' want or need to. There is no pressure to do so either.

I have just got hubby to read my last 2 posts and we are going to talk about it once the kids are in bed.

I feel scared.

Itati, If it is something you have done that was wrong, from what you said - "It truly was awful" - you recognise it was wrong and are sorry. People make mistakes, sometimes terrible ones, but if they admit it was wrong and try to learn from it and not do it again, then they deserve to be listened to and for people to try to understand. My brother made terrible mistakes and is now in prison. He seems truly sorry and has made a lot of effort to understand why he did it so he can make sure it doesn't happen again. I feel he deserves support.

If it is something about you and not something you have done wrong, I really can't think of anything that would be so bad that we should judge you!

It sounds like it is very hard for you to talk about and everybody on here will recognise that and I hope, respect you for saying it if that is what you want to do. It is a good place to do it because it is anonymous. If you feel awful after writing it, you could even change your MN name.

Smithfield, I wrote to my parents/partic my mother, but my emails were very VERY angry and full of swear words and challenging questions. Nothing like the reserved and calm tone of your letter - which of course disguises your real rage. But she will know what it really disguises and also, you are making your children excuses for not talking to her.

Your children are not your excuses for ANYTHING to do with her. Your children are the love of your life and do not deserve to be soiled (somehow - not explaining very well) by being used as your "why I have no time for you" thing. Because the true wonderful fact is, you DON'T have time for her...because you ARE busy raising your children in the right way, and NOT the way she raised you. Which I know, believe me, takes up a lot of mental and emotional energy!.

You still sound afraid of her in your letter. She will detect that and it will make her feel she has won something. I am not suggesting for one minute that you think you are going to send it - you have already said that you are not. I am only giving you my opinion. It is a very interesting read, for what it doesn't say, rather than what it does, iyswim.

My emails to my parents, this time last year, outlined their treachery in the most blatant way. But the whol thing blew up totally when I rang my father and said I needed my daddy (a lost moment which I had never done before - and which mayebe I did because i was giving him one last little girl's subconscious chance to Be There For Me?? Dont know, havent had any therapy for all this as I said before) and guess what??? he said "I cannot forgive you" (for the emails i had written outlining my disgust and the truth with my mother) and he put the phone down on me.

That night I spent in a psychiatric unit.

When they let me out the next day I felt like I had vomitted out their devilishly cruel treatment of me and was free, even if weak and with a nut record!! (and three months pregnant to boot, which they knew).

They are trying to come back into my life at the moment - my father rang today but now I recognise his "wrong" inflection and tone and manner and am aware that I have no need to cowtow to them anymore. I was blunt. I said No, I do not want you coming down to see me. He sounded all poor-daddy-I-am-hurt wank.

I feel for all of us so much, we who are just damaged children walking around in grown-up bodies. How fucking dare they wreak their havoc? have they absolutely NO idea? Why are they still behaving in the same way in their seventies and eighties, while we are having to be so self-aware and intelligent about the damage... knowing so strongly that we do NOT want to repeat the same mistakes and perpetuate their child-rearing crap?

itati, I am sorry I am new on this thread so can't be very helpful as I am not as sort-of virtual-friends with you as the other lovelies here sound. But i totally agree, if you come on this thread you must expect and deserve support and it is what you will get I am sure. If I get shot down for my ramblings, my green tiles will shoot straight back up inside my stomach!! (see earlier post!)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on FIL. I can see your points - that if what he does makes me feel uncomfortable then I have a right to make him stop and I don't have to explain why it makes me uncomfortable.

Also that I shouldn't "spare his feelings in lieu of my own" - I would be undervaluing myself/accepting that I'm unimportant by putting up with it, just like I did when I didn't talk about what happened in childhood for years.

I think I should talk to DH and get him to talk to FIL but I am very scared about doing this and don't know yet whether I will be able to find the courage. If DH won't do anything about it, it will bring back memories of my mum not doing anything about my gf and I just don't know if I can cope with feeling that again.

I'm still worrying that I might be overreacting but some of you have said you wouldn't like it either and I'm thinking about that and thinking whether I would think it was ok if one of his other daughter in laws told me he had done it to them.

Anyone got any ideas what words I could use to start a conversation with DH about it without DH getting angry/upset/saying I am overreacting?

Also, i don't think your mother would leave long shitty messages on an answerphone - because that doesn't meet her need. Which is to get some kind of thrill out of being shitty to your face (or ear) when she knows you are listening. She knows an angry message left on an answerphone holds no real threat...

My mother used to ring and leave this message:
"hello lesnuits, isn't the weather wonderful. I do hope you are well, um, er, um, I shall ring again (sound of holy bells pealing and communion being handed out and the soft whoosh of nuns habits swirling around flagstones...she likes to think she is a saint you see)..Goodbye my dear, goodbye (sound of birdsong and the soft tap of the phone being put down).

of course there was NO correlation between her "saint message" left on my answerphone - which had her desired reaction in the old days of making me want to ring her, her as in "mummy", back - and the tone she could adopt ina flash which was hissy, frightening and the exorcist.

AN

What your father has been like with me lately has made me feel very uncomfortable. i woud like you to ask him to stop otherwise i will have no choice to not see him.

Something like that?

Now me

I have spoken to hubby and he knew exactly what I was going to say after my first sentence. We talked and he knows exactly what I mean and knows it is part of my past.

It wasn't anything bad I did, just something bad I had done to me and how it has affected me since. Makes me feel dirty all over again.