"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Smithfield

You are NOT unloveable. Far from it.

I reckon too that we would all get on just fine if we were all to meet up. Ally, Pages, Acting Normal and your good self would be at the top of my personal list of Mumsnetters I would like to meet.

Your parents let you down big time and kept repeating the let downs and disappointments throughout your childhood. It was not your fault that this happened and in no way at all did you deserve what happened to you (not just to say your siblings as they are also affected by your parents lack of parental support and caring).

I'll leave the PC on as well till bedtime.

Your friend wearing the socks

Attila x

P.S Ally - many congratulations to you on your pregnancy. Am delighted for you.

Still here Smithfield...

But while I'm here can catch up

Itati - Really feel for you having all your past dug up and rereading probably not the best times of your life diaries can really take you back to bad places. Would it help to post on this thread (changing any important details) your feelings/thoughts...even if it does not make much sense to you or us at least you won't be 'alone' dealing with it? We can help support you through the court case...I think you are extremely brave to be doing this...very courageous (even if you may not feel it) I'm sure it will help others too. Do you have to actually go to court and face the person? xx

Thankyou for congrats folks I am 5 weeks and feel very happy and very excited...and really am not missing telling my family. Will do at about 3 months don't want it to come from someone else in case that provokes a reaction. As we both live in small towns close by it means local gossip travels fast.

Attila - I'd like to meet you too We could recognise each other by our socks

Back to Smithfield...I'm still here

Actually Smithfield just remembered something (god knows how I forgot) when dd was 4 mths old and my dad came to visit, he brought stuff from my mother after I had specifically asked him not to previously (I had been terrified asking him) and after he left it dawned on me that even tho he had been there through my childhood/life and seen the abuse first hand, he actually did not care. I spent about 10 hours solid crying (I know its impossible to cry for more than 20 mins at a time...) really sobbing helplessly. I think that is when it finally hit home that my dad was not going to rescue me like I always thought he would, he was going to back up my mum 100%.

Could be another reason your so emotional? Ie your having a 'realisation' about your dad...

Going to sift through some of my old posts now to see if I can show you my ups after contact and the really low downs after...it honestly does happen

Smithfield, Still here too. Ally seems to know what she is talking about re the ups and downs after contact and the realisation thing. She sounds similar to you. When someone has felt/feels similar it helps you feel you aren't going mad/being stupid.

Ally, was it you who called your dad a 'bystander'? You feel like you shouldn't be angry with someone who didn't actually do anything but it is the not doing anything that really hurts - not caring enough to do something. Him wanting an easy life instead. Fear of the abuser being more important to them than protecting their child. But it is hard to express the anger because there isn't a 'thing' you can say they have done to you.

I have ILs here tomorrow so better clean the house as MIL very judgemental. She also infers I don't know how to cook all the time (my cooking isn't that bad) and somehow they both make me feel like I am lazy (they don't believe in depression). I'm sure they think I don't look after their son properly. They think a woman should wait on a man hand and foot. But they do show me love and take an interest in me, so I forgive them.

Im still here too

Im feeling a bit calmer. Cant believe how distraught I became today. I Could not seem to stop crying and I could probably keep going too...I cant beat 10 hours though Ally.

With my dad Ive been feeling a lot of anger toward him which Ive been bottling up. And anger toward my dad is a new thing for me because I never thought he was doing anything wrong.

When he was abusive, he would say he was sorry and cry and hug me. My mother never did this, and never had any empathy for me being upset. So I took that as a sign he loved me and so that was ok.

I think he is the lynchpin with my siblings because he does control us all with money. My siblings are very loyal to my dad and I guess I feel anxious that db will eventually turn on me because I dont have contact with dad

I think being isolated from people is a big thing for me because; my mum isolated me from the rest of the family. She got inside my relationships so to speak. I think thats where the anxiety is coming from...my mothers wrath was always followed by being isolated from everyone else.

An- I do think my reaction to MIL was an over-reaction...I think you are right...I went back to my childhood and she was stood on my doorstep with me percieving her as judging me, and then dismissing me.

I think I always will struggle with women of this age. I seek either their approval or feel controlled by them. I think also this is why I can not work with women managers.

I think MIL was the catalyst today but the trigger was definately the phonecall.

I'm still here x

AN, your giving good advice too.

Yes my dad is a bystander. It comes from the 'drama triangle' the 3 positions being victim/persecutor/rescuer. Then outside the 'triangle' is the 'bystander'. I felt I could not be angry with him because, a) like you say he didn't do anything to me b) I could only cope with so much anger and that was for my mother and sister. c) he seemed like the good guy. Then I had my realisation about him and finally saw him for what he was... you always hope there is someone in the family who will stick up for you and validate your experiences...

You do realise that you don't have to put up with anyone being judgemental? Tis not acceptable behaviour...have you tried...

a) I felt hurt when you said x y z
b) that's interesting...why do you say that?
c) there was a c) but I can't think of it now!

And you are not lazy...I've been subtly accused of that a number of times...its down to not feeling able to achieve anything...and procrastination...not sure if mine is depression...but I do experience the inability to do anything including housework but one day I will do it all!

((((Smithfield)))))

Your back!

Well I was sobbing on and off for 10 hours ish... suggest you get crying again... do you think the guiness book of records would come round?

Does it feel like the world has caved in and everyone is out to get you and no one likes you or has ever liked you and everything is just terrible? Yep? Your thinking in all black mode...you need to balance it out with some grey and white...tis not all bad...but takes a while for your thoughts and feelings to balance back out again after such 1st degree contact (thinking back to my grandads UFO books now...tell me...did mil develop little pointy ears and turn green?)

This is a blip (yes...a heart wrenching one)...however I find the majority of the time now my lows after contact with my mother are not so bad as at first...the more distance the better...and I'm 2 years and 3 mths nc now...your only 8 mths and with a baby still...I found it much harder when my dd was a baby.

Your anger towards your dad will also spiral you down...you saw him as the good parent before? Supportive after being abusive and showing affection and now you feel you have lost that too? Sounds like a realisation...just sounds like really bad timing your mothers phonecall and mil coming and testing your boundries and your realisation about your dad...any one of those would have knocked me...and you've had 3 blows in a very short space of time...

Have you spoken to dh? or had a text?

Smithfield

Your Dad sounds like he is controlling as well as abusive. Not just to mention a bystander, he never tried to stop the worst excesses of his wife's actions did he?. He protected his own sorry arse and giving himself a quiet life by not doing anything to protect you from her. He may well have been afraid of his wife but that's no excuse. You were a child. And even when he said sorry he still carried on. Therefore he is not off the hook and he to my mind is just as bad as her.

My FIL is a bystander in that dysfunctional family unit of theirs and as such I have no time for him. I'll be civil of course but that's about as far as it goes.

Not directly related to your own situ because both of your parents were and remain abusive but I am reminded of the saying, "bad things happen when good people stand by and do nothing".

Controllers are by their nature abusive; would suggest you read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft. It gives insight into how such people operate. I would also say that controllers are also angry people too. There is also a chapter in "Toxic Parents" about controllers.

Neither you nor Ally are lazy; think you've both been conditioned by your respective parents to think that you are.

Your friend in the pink stripey Missoni socks

Attila x

My DH, bless his socks, never really knew what to do about the problem of mis parentes either. I worked it out in my own time but its taken me years. Infact I am happier these days and feel more settled than I have been in a long time, I constantly at one time felt like I was not waving but drowning.

Reading a book called "Life after birth" also helped me as part of it dealt with parental relationships and disappointment with regards to grandparents.

Distance both physical and emotional is key, again I'm civil but I feel I was still cast adrift by them a long time ago. Perhaps they just trusted me to get on with it and I was seen by them to be the "responsible" one.

yours in socks

Attila x

'Does it feel like the world has caved in and everyone is out to get you and no one likes you or has ever liked you and everything is just terrible?'

Yes and Yes

did mil develop little pointy ears and turn green?)

Yes

'its down to not feeling able to achieve anything...and procrastination...not sure if mine is depression...but I do experience the inability to do anything including housework but one day I will do it all! '

Oh god..you too? That really does make me feel heaps better.

I can procrastinate about procrastinating

But now you are pg, you are excused mucky floors

How are you feeling btw? Much sickness?

Now see, Im still confused as where my dad is in the triangle. Sometimes I can place him as persecutor and sometimes victim.
But is he also a bystander?.
My mum would use his anger against us. so she would wind him up and wind him and then he would blow. It was almost like she was standing back and letting my dad do her dog work.
...but yes anger at dad...whole new thing for me.

sakuras postings about her trip home way back started to trigger it...but I spent ages trying to convince myself he still was the 'loving' parent. I wanted one good one.

AN- Agree with Ally its not ok for them to put you down, but you can take that on board for later if you like as you have much to deal with right now.

You could say my mother didnt do something as she didnt show any love or affection.. I think thats why I struggled with seeing it as abuse as well, I made myself culpable for not being likeable or loveable instead.

BTW I really am wearing my pink stripey socks and strangely I had put them on this am.

Must have known something was afoot

Atilla- x posted

Your Dad sounds like he is controlling as well as abusive. Not just to mention a bystander, he never tried to stop the worst excesses of his wife's actions did he?. He protected his own sorry arse and giving himself a quiet life by not doing anything to protect you from her. He may well have been afraid of his wife but that's no excuse. You were a child. And even when he said sorry he still carried on. Therefore he is not off the hook and he to my mind is just as bad as her.

Yes in a nutshell- How do you do that?

Boom boom

Your dad was also the rescuer...giving you a hug after and saying he was sorry...and as people can spin round on the triangle I'm sure they can whizz off and be a bystander too at times.

Its hard losing the 'supportive' parent, I know will really hit hard and hit your self esteem anew...the one person you thought would support you and love you

But on the bright side you have the internet and a group of people who have had similar experiences to you Your not alone...you are in good insightful company.

And when parents do not show affection or there for you emotionally...its called emotional neglect...see there is even a term for it! And you suffered it...and me and Attila and AN...and most other posters too! And the emotional abuse of course...

No sickness as yet

allyxxx

Ally-

The good thing is I think I am finally getting to the bottom of my feelings. I didnt realise how disconnected I really was.

But in an odd way it feels good. Does that make sense. Im still crying, but at least I know why. Its like being properly connected with myself for the first time. Does that make sense.

BTW -DH said he didnt recieve text when I sent it (was rather long), he rang when he says it came through eventually.

He then came home and helped put kids to bed. He says he cant believe I still dont trust him to be there for me.

Attila- I will get that book, I havent read for anything in a while.

Smithfield, you sound a bit more 'stable' this evening than earlier and that is a relief. Hopefully the children are asleep and you are relaxing. I hope you get more sleep tonight because not sleeping makes everything multiple times worse.

I am watching Saving Private Ryan and drinking because I find it horrifying. I feel like a drip when I think of people going through that kind of trauma.

Your dh sounds supportive Not sure my dh would come back...but maybe I don't trust him either...bit hard when you don't trust the very first people in your life.

Anyway sounds like this may end up being a positive experience for you making a connection with your feelings is brilliant.

Glad your not alone anyway...and bet you sleep well tonight with all that crying...its very healthy crying is y'know...

Yes- I do feel much better, and it really helped to talk it through.

Thankyou...

I will try and get some sleep now though (praying dd sleeps through tonight)

AN-enjoy your movie.

Good night -Ally,Atilla and AN xx

Night Smithfield and AN and Attila

Goodnight to you too Ally, AN and Smithfield

Attila has left the building!!

Hello smithfield

I am new on this thread but have been watching it for some time. I understand how you feel about your dad being the protective one - scraps of affection tossed your way like you're the dog on a chain in the corner. I cut off all ties with my family (my parents but it has had to include my siblings too bar older brother but that is rare and new contact after ten years) last June. I have ds and they have never seen him. I never want to see him ineither of their arms. Ever. Have never ben able to say that outrightly before. This thread must be like an oxygen tank.

My father was the underdog when I was growing up - the one weeping and wailing and dribbling in the corner while my mum pummelled him. My emotions fluctuated between thinking he was a useless weak freak and that he was being stamped on by this contolling witch. But when I stuck up for him he hated me for it and so did she, and when I didn't he hated me for it and she didn't/did a bit. Couldn't win. Not that there was anything winning about it. Just all very wearisome/undermining/shit.

And when I went out to the pub with any kind of boyfriend in tow they both hated me. Called me outrageous names - became partners in arms. Like I was the slut. I was holy and very top of the class!! I earned those kisses under trees at midnight.

And then when Big Relationship went wrong my mother told me she had had two abortions and to just Get Over It... that was news to me!...she was meant to be a living saint! Wings, pips, the lot. My dad worships the ground she walks on.

Why? Why do these adults-and-parents head-fuck with their children? I mean, why do they HAVE children???
And why are these people still alive?

Anyway. I am messenger number 89123647081*&^^%$£ on this thread because there are so many of us. I look back now at some of my recent threads and think Yes; they were always, always going to lead to this one.

I missed the bit about the stripey socks but I liked the bit about INSIGHT. We will be better parents (god willing) because we are intelligent and compassionate and sane and can spend ten hours crying because that is what it deserves.

I

Lesnuits-

'But when I stuck up for him he hated me for it and so did she, and when I didn't he hated me for it and she didn't/did a bit. Couldn't win. Not that there was anything winning about it. Just all very wearisome/undermining/shit.'

I very much relate to this. You sound like you were the third 'partner' in your parents relationship. Like me.

It also is confusing though as there are 'strict rules' and yet 'no rules' and yet the rules keep changing and you just cant win as you desperately flounder to work out what the rules are.

It's like living in chaos... And chaos is very frightening for a child.

The feeling of never quite being in the right position is so true. If you take the side of the weaker parent, you become the target to the stronger one. When 'they' are united then they are both against you.

My father would sit me in the car and tell me he was leaving, and that he just couldnt live with my mother anymore. Tears would roll and I would be sobbing. I think he got some kind of kick out of this.
When he came back it was as though he didnt need 'me' anymore, and suddenly I was out in the cold.

Your childhood sounds very traumatic and you sound like you have a lot of anger too.
Have you had any therapy, done much reading?

It is sad about your siblings, our parents do 'unfortunately' teach our siblings how to
interact with us and so if we happen to be the scapegoat to our parents so we will be for our siblings also.

The stripey socks thing- is really I suppose a bit symbolic. Many of us I imagine continue to hide ourselves away, through stance, clothing (no colour), little or no make-up, little or no voice. Its like we're afraid to stand out, as to be noticed is to have our faults exposed, by those who 'do' notice us, to the world.

So bright coloured stripey socks is a symbolic and real way of starting to break the mould.

Smith, no I haven't really had much therapy -not for all the family stuff. I have had a very traumatic two years and it has come up and bitten me hard on the arse. I have reached a lot of conclusions myself though, thanks to a useful line I read or heard; that each sibling has a very different experience of being parented. This suddenly made a lot of sense to me: I couldn't understand why my bros and sisters (apart from oldest bro as mentioned) couldn't see my parents for the damaging people they are, then I understood: they have been parented by them in a different way.

They are all a fuck-up in their own ways. This is why I have cut contact with all of them: it has been like coming out of a cult -that is the only way I can describe it. But it's quite frightening - makes me feel vulnerable and alone. And in some ways sad and concerned for ds as he will not know grandparents/aunts and uncles/cousins etc. But i think it is the only way forward.

I have had to imagine that I am an ony child and my parents have died, that's all. That helps me find some perspective and not persecute myself all over again.

My dad would take me out on long walks and make me turn cement with him or dig over the garden when he and my mother were going through a particularly bad patch - this meant I felt close to him and was helping him somehow. But you are right, as soon as they patched it up I was discarded again and my dad only had eyes and ears for her. I was a nothing again.

They rowed constantly, my mother shouting and my dad cowering. I heard him hit her once. Don't think he hit her a lot. We kids would sit on the stairs, oldest sister trying to keep us calm and say that when we were adopted she would try to keep the girls and boys together - we probably wldn't find a family that would take all five of us.

I think I may have been abused but I can't remember. It's only a hunch. I know my two sisters have the same hunch. I don't know if it can happen to you when you are very very small and you dont remember - and would he have stopped? I mean my dad. Until I was about 7 or 8 I thought my vagina was the green tiles around the fireplace in our old house. That says something doesn't it???

I don't know.

My dad used to tell me to lift my dress and show him my legs when I started going out on "dates" or to parties at 14/15/16. I was very sexually precocious but also very virginal - knew naff all about sex yet was very sexually driven.

I suppose at some point I should get some proper therapy for all this stuff: but I need therapy in so many other areas of my nonsense fuck-up of a life!! It's probably all inter-related - why I have picked men who have abused and dumped or shagged around on me. ??

Sorry. Bit of a ramble.

She was very controlling and used to put a horrid voice on when she was being nasty (I put this in past tense because i am not in contact and I want to keep it that way in my life/mind/existence, hence the use in everyday speech of the past tense for them)

Lesnuits, I feel for you, it sounds like there are so many different things in your head that make you feel bad and you haven't made sense of them all and put them in any kind of structure or order. I really hope you will get more therapy, soon. Like you say, I am sure it is all interrelated, eg getting into situations with men who don't treat you properly. I've done this and I think it is because if you are brought up to believe you are not very important and that it is normal to be treated this way, you tolerate bad treatment from people as an adult, you don't even realise it is bad at the beginning, but then wonder why you feel so awful. I get the feeling from your writing that there may be memories you have blocked out a bit because it is hard to think about them (I could be wrong), and that you feel you don't deserve therapy - You so do!

Smithfield, are you feeling better about your DH now? Reading yours and LesNuits posts I get the impression that your parents were so wrapped up in their own problems with each other that they didn't have much headspace left for their children. Occassionally they thought about you when they thought they could get some attention from you for their problems and use you to feel better and when they didn't need this they weren't very interested. It makes me angry that with these types of people it is all about them and they leave their children feeling unimportant and that they just happened to be there (I felt this way when my birthmother and birthfather went on at me about their problems with each other and the affair they were having behind their wife and husband's backs - well actually they didn't even hide it much and their partners knew something was happening. They hadn't known me long but weren't interested in anything about the daughter they gave away decades ago, just wanted someone to help them with their problems).

It is interesting what you and Attila write about stripey socks - that it is a rebellion against feeling you had to make yourself look inconspicuous and fade into the background - this makes me want to cry - that you feel you shouldn't even exist!

I used to do the opposite. I desperately wanted people to see that I DO exist, in quite an angry way. I used to wear outlandish clothes, plait my hair up with different coloured ribbons and big bright coloured netting bows etc, paint my eyebrows green and purple, say and do outrageous things just to get noticed. I was scared that nobody would even notice I was there if I did not do extreme things. I got the attention I wanted and it felt good for a while, but then started to realise I was just the entertainment, the one who would do something stupid and give everyone something to laugh at, but nobody took me seriously enough to want to get close to me and really connect with me for the person I really was. I am still attention seeking but try to control it a lot more. I still think if I am totally myself without trying to be funny or shock people then nobody will notice me or care that I exist. I am scared of feeling alone

I'm really sorry to add yet another post but as well as responding to your thought provoking posts, I am feeling very weird today and it might make sense if I write it down. I don't think I can tell anyone else this.

In-laws were here yesterday. FIL has always been affectionate in a quite tactile way, with everyone I think. DH has told him some stuff about my childhood when I wasn't there and about what my gf did. It seemed like after he told him he was more careful not to be too tactile with me, which I appreciated.

But yesterday he did some things which made me feel highly uncomfortable and I don't know if I am just being stupid because older men remind me of gf and make me feel disgusted and scared.

When he came in the house I was already talking to MIL through a doorway and he came up behind me in the other room. He lightly pinched my bum and said hello. Is this ok? It didn't feel ok, it immediately made me think of gf and made me feel ill.

Later on I was standing in the kitchen looking on the internet on this laptop while the kettle was boiling or something and he came up behind me and put his hands on my waist while asking me what I was doing. I went totally tense and felt panic stricken. The frozen to the spot feeling really reminded me of gf. I pulled away from him a bit and was scared he might put his body up against me and he seemed to keep his hands on me for ages. It wasn't ages, it just felt like it. I felt like crying after. Was he just being innocently friendly and should I have felt this strongly?

Later on he was going upstairs for a nap. I was yawning and said I was quite sleepy and he said "You could come up and lie on the bed next to me". MIL said "FIL!" in a shocked tone. I said "NO, I could not" in a serious voice.

When he came back down I was half asleep on the sofa. He sat by me and tried to lift my legs up onto his lap but I couldn't bear it and pulled away and said "NO, I'm getting up now".

It makes me want to cry. I feel scared of him and I probably shouldn't. I watch him like a hawk with my children anyway. I feel maybe I should ask DH to tell him not to touch me but I'm scared of upsetting DH and I'm scared of upsetting FIL if he is only being innocently friendly. How do I know if it is innocent? Where are the boundaries?

Earlier in a restaurant he jokingly asked a young girl to marry him and MIL didn't like it - not out of jealousy, more that she thought the girl would think it was highly inappropriate. I felt really sorry for the girl.

I don't want the feelings from the past to come back to me. I'm scared the whole lot will come back even though I know logically it won't. I just couldn't go through it again. I feel scared and like crying.

I feel like I have been weak again, and should have said something (but I don't know what), and therefore I haven't changed from the weedy, too scared girl from the past who I feel disgust for.

I feel too embarrassed to talk to DH about this. Am I seriously overreacting? or am I underreacting?