"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Brilliant!

I have asked but TBH I don't believe her. She is a big one for never lying but stood in my kitchen and (I now know why) purposely ignored me when I said my mother must never find out the children's names. DH made her listen. Now know she had already told her. Maybe she could argue she didn't hear?

TMSB, thanks. I will get that book after I've read this one - Moving Forward by Dave Pelzer. He wrote heartbreaking books Child Called It, Man Called Dave etc you've probably heard of them. If he has found ways to be positive after what's happened to him then he must be worth listening to!

Sakura, it is painful reading things that remind you of stuff and looking at old photos but I'm thinking, maybe this is something we should stop running away from but instead remember stuff, cry, rage, vent it out (if we can find somewhere safe to do it eg Therapist's office). MN is a safe place I think as well and I'm starting to relax enough to say more and more. I say everyone vent and vent lots of times until you feel it is out and has less power - Fluxy and Smithfield too. Why not say "I'm just going to have a quick vent" then pour out a load of bile, venom and swear words in a post, then say "that's a bit better for now". It doesn't matter if you feel there is no obvious response anyone can give you, we will just say "well done, great rant!"

I've noticed so much similarity in a lot of people on here.
1 - Most people think "Is my stuff bad enough to talk about" - yes it is if it is affecting you. If you need to talk about it to feel better then you need to talk to feel better, simple!
2 - Like Sakura said, lots of people didn't realise til now that what happened to them wasn't normal but felt like they were going mad for feeling bad about it into adulthood. I think some abusive people want you to think it is normal so they can keep doing it but now we know it is not we can stand up to them either in our heads or in a practical way.
3 - People seem to have been taught as children not to talk about their feelings about bad things that happened so they have kept quiet and felt ashamed, not felt able to talk to 'normal' friends about it, found it hard to open up after a lifetime habit of acting normal, and need a place where they can feel really safe and reassured, like Therapist's office or MN, to talk about it, vent the feelings and make sense of it before being able to 'move on'. If we had felt able to talk about it to trusted RL people and get it all out we wouldn't need this would we.
4 - If we don't vent it out and make sense of it, eventually things start to trigger it and the negative feelings start spilling out onto people who don't deserve it eg our DCs and DHs. When this starts happening it is when we know we need to get help for their sakes if not for our own.
5 - There may be a good thing about our experiences - that it has made us really think about what our children need from us (what we needed and didn't get) rather than just blindly muddling through each day with them, so it could give us the knowledge and insight to be better parents than average!

Great post AN-Posting on here helps to put some order to all the thoughts sloshing around in my head. It also really helps to read other peoples thoughts, as as you say there are definite patterns and similiarities. These 'normalise' the stuff sloshing around for me, and give me hope that things, can and will change.(for the better)
In terms of parenting my own DC, I feel this thread is really helping. I am learning more about what is inappropriate/ inappropriate. My own experience of being parented failed to prepare me for this. It's great to have a safe place to check things out on.

Sorry inappropriate/ appropriate

OOps I'm drunk but I will try to make sense and type what I was thinking about earlier. I feel like I'm having some kind of 'relapse' to how I felt maybe last summer. DD has done nothing really wrong but I feel a horrible anger towards her. I don't really want to look at her or talk to her and I feel over anxious that she might do something awful to her younger brother and I might not notice/stop it happening. I feel like I want to get her away from him and get her away from me. I want to escape. I feel like I am an evil bitch. She doesn't deserve this. I've been much better with her for weeks with help from the therapy but the badness seems to have come back this week WHY????

It is the wrong time for PMT. Is it because I'm dreading having her home for school summer holiday? Is this just a phase with the therapy? (I'm starting to cry in the sessions). Is it because my mind is racing again and I can't stop thinking about how crap it all was in my family? Is it that I'm scared of how I felt last summer coming back? I felt I was losing it and couldn't cope and had given up on being any good at anything that I do.

I said I didn't care how my parents reacted to my confrontation letter but haven't realised/wouldn't admit, until now, that their lack of reaction to it (my mum hasn't even acknowledged that she read it) makes me feel like they just don't care what happened to me, even now that I have told them a load of details. They are still acting like nothing has happened.

My mum phoned tongight and I answered it and talked nothingness with her for 10 mins but after I felt agitated and like I was betraying myself by also acting normal. I felt so tense, I (this is so foolish), blew violent raspberries after and punched cushions accross the room. The kids went wild with mirth! DH thought I was nuts. Then went out and drank (had planned to go out anyway, wasn't a reaction to it really). I do find when my head is full I get short tempered with the children intruding on my thoughts and my head has filled up again. Therapist had 'given me permission' to feel angry with parents even though I feel sorry for them and was feeling guilty for not doing something to help them more and now the anger is coming out more. Is this just the next stage and it will pass and I won't get irrationally angry with DD anymore? I really don't want to pass on the bad parenting

AN- Hope you're ok today.
How old is your DD? Does she remind you of yourself? I ask this because I find my DS2 presses the buttons for me. He is most like me emotionally, and I imagine I was like his is when I was a child. I find him the most demanding, and intrusive on my thoughts about the past.
Are you looking after the DC all summer? Perhaps it seems daunting, having no break when your mind is racing with all the crap? I found last week-end really hard when everyone was at home, making constant demands. When they went to school and playgroup on monday, it felt like a ton weight had been lifted off me, and I managed my thoughts better.
My Dad has rung twice this week and spoken to DH. He's waiting for my return call. I really do not want to speak to him. He rang to tell me he'd fallen off his bike. I spent my whole therapy session this week talking about him. I remembered how he constantly tried to get emotional support from me, and him taking me out at 14 to tell me how depressed and low he was.. I used to spend all my time getting drunk then with my toxic friends. (i understand now why I did that.I was just miserable and not coping.) I am really surprised I didn't go totally off the rails.He is married with a wife who supports him, so why's he still trying to drain me?

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for ages and hope you don't mind me intruding. I'm just not sure what to do / where to go next. I'm thinking about buying the toxic parents book that many of you rate highly. The thing is I'm not even sure whether this is all in my head, you know - that i'm making it out worse than it is but I've reached a point where I can't take any more.
I really hope this isn't too long, and I suppose I just want someone to say its ok / not your fault and help me feel stronger.You guys all seem to be so strong and you've been through much worse than me. DH is supportive but doesn't want to rock the boat with my parents so to speak.
Basically my mum has been really verbally abusive, and at times physically violent, throughout my life though has not hit me since I moved out in my mid 20's. My dad has stood by silently and never stopped her, only interfering to give me into trouble if I ever answered her back -which I do rarely. I have a sister who is as vindictive and evil as my mother and who doesn't speak to me at all - my mum doesn't speak to her own sister or any of her family and I think she has turned my own sister against me from a young age, she now claims she doesn't know why sister doesn't speak to me!
I don't really know where to begin with this, so much has happened over the years, but I know that my mum has never liked me. I don't know why as I've never caused her any trouble, went to uni, have a good, very successful job which pays well, am in a senir position and am married to a nice man and have ds 18mo. She has always had really bad temper, I can't remeber her speaking normally, just screamimg at me and my sister all the time and my dad also. She beat me with my dad's belt when I was 5 or 6 after I kicked my dentist when he was giving me gen anaesthetic. Think I did this out of fear / reflex, not anger etc. But she took me home, and whilst still groggy she told me to bend over and beat me with the belt. Now I know it sounds trivial but it really affected me even though it was years ago. About a year ago we passed the man in the street, I didn't recognise him, she said there's the dentist you kicked but didn't mention the beating - I wanted to say how out of proportion her actions were but couldn't bring myself. She has always criticised my appearance, my general activities and is always generally interfering. Sounds silly but she has always looked at me very disdainfully, as though am something dirty on my shoe, even when she comes into my house. Is always so false, any smiles never meet her eye. She's never interested in my job, ds, etc.
When i got married she fell out with me as I wouldn't get married on a date she suggested as our dates interfered with her work - she runs own thriving business and is well able to take a day off but never does. However she came, but not without ruining my hen night first by not speaking to me, getting drunk with her friend and leaving and going elsewhere - though maybe this was a blessing! My sister, who by now not speaking to me at all turned up mysteriously and was still there next day, despite not meant to be coming. My mum had booked room for her behind my back. She also did not speak - Just before hen night my mum had phoned me and said my sis was going to punch my aunt (mother's sis, who has done no wrong!) But how school yardish! I was so upset and told my mum in that case sis was not to come - cue dad on phone to me "your mum is crying in corner, you must apologise". But for whole wedding I couldn't relax. All the photos of mum and sis at wedding / hen night they are growling - not smiling. I just could not believe they would try to ruin things for me like this. My sis then got married a year later and my parents didn't even tell me, when I found out - via a work colleague of mine, was so embarrased - they just shrugged it off. This is what annoys me - I try to stand up for myself and get shouted down with " you are a terrible daughter etc" but they do huge stuff like that and that's ok.
When I had ds it made me think how could they have behaved like that towards me, would never do anything bad to ds, but part of me must have thought they would now improve for sake of their grandson. But they are not remotely interested in him. The thing is my mum acts like she loves kids but I know from my own experience she doesn't.
She looked after my nephew while his mum worked and I knew that once he was on his feet she wouldn't tolerate him - how true, she has now cast him aside and rarely sees him.
I made a decision to reduce contact with her as I would leave their house so upset. I'm feeling better due to this, but annoyed that they never phone to see how ds is or visit us - but can't have it both ways can I! Anyway, was my birthday yesterday. PIL were her, my parents arrived - mum complete with rude face on! - and said as soon as she came in "oh, ds doesn't recognise me, well we never see him" as though was my fault, well suppose it is but what does she expect!
Was v frosty throughout with further comments in this vein, but making no eye contact with me or dh. I just wanted to say, yes why don't you see him and stop being rude in front of PIL! She sort of grabbed ds and said I've got T shirt for you and forced it on him, sepite himtrying to get away - cue " he doesn't like me" in angry voice towards him.
God, well done if you are still reading, as am getting aware this is so trivial, but feel I have to vent!
I just feel as though I want to cut them out of my life altogether. She behaves so aggressively yet so childlike as well - recently told me she didn't get me anything for my 30th a few years ago (right after my wedding) as we didn't have anything in common as I don't like "pink sparkly" things like her and my sister. There's just so many lies about things, she's always moing the goalposts and I just want out of their lifes now. I don't want ds to see me afraid of her any more.

Thanks for letting me vent, dh back, will have to go but will come back later..

Welcome Winnieandroo

No you are most definately NOT being trivial! Dear god, what insane person would belt their own child, let alone when still groggy from anthesetic no matter what they had done??? Any and all of the things you mention are not trivial. Having been emotionally abused 'only' myself I know that words can cut like a knife and stay with you for a lifetime. Your doing amazingly well to come here and to realise your families behaviour is not normal or okay towards you or your ds (and probably your dh and pil). It takes a great deal of insight and courage to come this far. I hope you are sat patting yourself on the back for this I always feel proud of anyone who comes on this thread to talk of painful memories, which you always feel are not worth talking about. Remember it is your parents and sister that trivialised your feelings...you won't find that on this thread. We know what you feel is important and worth listening too. Ranting and venting are really healthy things to do and you can also get some really helpful feedback and validation on your feelings and thoughts that you would not get from your 'unhelpful' family.

What you describe is abuse and your family should be ashamed of what they have done to you, and feel guilty for it all. I sense there is no relenting in it, so if by this time they have not seen the error of their ways (not just little errors either! Great big blindingly obvious ones!!) then there is not much hope of a normal relationship, let alone your mother trying to put a tshirt on your ds against his will when he does not know her!

Got to sign off...cooking up a storm in kitchen at the mo

Take care and keep posting xxx

thanks ally

The first thing I wanted to do when I saw my post was delete it, I was cringing, thinking what on earth am i going on about, am too sensitive, and really worried if my mum and sis find out about it. But, if they did I have done nothing wrong, just spoken the truth.
Thanks for your support, and yes I do think it amounts to emotional abuse. I've got really low self esteem - despite being assertive and successful at work - but I've always felt defective, abnormal in some way.
I think its because I don't know what I've done to deserve this. My sis took drugs and got into all sorts of trouble but my parents think the suns shines out of her backside. My sis has never acknowledged we have ds despite us sending gifts etc for theirs, which have also gone unacknowledged. We have sent these things as its not their child's fault and I don't want history to repeat itself but I think am actually making a laughing stock of myself and will have to stop sending cards / presents, though I feel v guilty about this. Yes, I don't think they will change. I think I've just realised that, I though it would be different now I had ds, but if anything its worse - I can't believe they'd continue to be like this, but realise was being v unrealistic.
Have been concentrating on just focussing on my little family, but can't help feeling sad, esp for ds.
Trying also to be more assertive with my parents, but v hard, am still frightened of my mother.

hello winnie, i'm in tears reading your post because you think somehow you did something to deserve being mistreated and abused by your mother. You were an innocent, vulnerable little girl, you did NOTHING to merit the sort of treatment you have described. You needed and deserved your mother's love, protection, encouragement, support and guidance. These is the emotional nourishment each and every child needs as much as physical nourishment like food, in order to grow up into an emotionally healthy adult without self esteem or self confidence issues.

Well done for being brave enough to come on here and post about what you have been through. Nothing you have said is trivial and the fact that it happened a long time ago doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. I suggest you buy the book Toxic Parents and perhaps start looking into finding a counsellor/therapist who can help you deal with all these feelings and memories from your childhood which you have kept buried for so long. Remember any feelings you bury are not dead and buried, they are buried alive and will always remain active somewhere in your mind until you deal with them.

Good luck, we are all here to support you, keep posting. x

Mimizan, thanks for asking, I feel a bit more positive today. DD is 5. I was not like her when I was a child but I feel that if I had not been so repressed by my family I would have been like her. I recognise her feelings/attitudes/drives from the way she really expresses herself, as being similar to mine, but I did not express anything. I don't want to admit this, but although I know it is a good thing that DD has the love, affection, kisses, cuddles, praise, more friends to play with, more time with me, more things to do, more material things, than I feel I had, and she is more emotionally healthy than I was and able to express herself better, I think I must be jealous of her! I get angry because she often acts spoilt and ungrateful and demands more, when I feel I would be grateful to have had what she has.

She is on at me all the time, following me around, talking non stop drivel and expecting an answer, asking for one thing after another. It feels like she won't leave me alone and although it is nothing like my childhood with my brother, it reminds me of how he was so relentless and wouldn't leave me alone and I couldn't get away from him either. This was causing me to have memories of him back then suddenly coming into my head (is this flashbacks?)

And then there is the anxiety that she might start treating DS (3) the way my bro treated me if I am not hypervigilant and don't jump on any behaviour that looks remotely bullying. When she aggravates him and tries to control him, again, although it is nothing like my bro, this reminds me of how he was as well.

She has done nothing wrong yet I load all this crap onto my thoughts about her. I'm hoping if I process and release my feelings about my bro through therapy they won't keep 'leaking out' onto her.

Winnie, I agree with what Ally and Oneplusone said. I don't think anything you wrote about was trivial, it was wrong and not normal. Lots of people seem to worry that emotional abuse will not be seen as being as bad as physical and sexual abuse. I think it is as bad. At the time, the things my brother said to me and the things he did to humiliate me hurt me more than him hitting me etc. My mum dismissing what her father did to me hurt me more than what he did. I feel more hurt by my parents not noticing what was happening and not listening to me when I told mum about gf and bro than what bro and gf did. So in other words, the emotional abuse hurt more than the physical and sexual. Would you say the same, that the beating after the dentist trip was not the worst thing, the continued emotional abuse was?

Anyway I'm glad you are here, with people who will support you, don't go away.

thanks oneplusone and acting normal, just to have my feelings validated means so much. And yes AN the emotional abuse is in many ways worse, she just doesn't stop. She does things like not speaking to me for months for no reason, but then i noticed she did this also in lead up to mothers day every year - so that I would have to make the first move. Its like she's playing mind games or something. When I had ds she made a point then of saying mothers day was so important - for her, not me as ds too small yet!
Thanks again guys you have given me so much to think about, and very kind of you despite your own difficulties. I hope I can provide some support to you in the future too. I will keep posting

Hi all, sorry haven't posted for a while. Had a very tough week at work and have been very stressed out. Had a bad flashback yesterday, Hubby was getting cross at his computer and I could hear him shouting, for some reason this particular time made me think back to being younger again. It took me ages to calm down and even now I stil feel very emotional about it. Hubby was very apologetic (he's very calm and mild mannered normally but the computer wasn't playing!), he didn't even know I'd heard him shout. Have been very tired today too, not sure if I reacted the way I did because I was tired and stressed already.

Welcome winnieandroo Keep posting.
AN- You are having negative thoughts about your DD. However I think the fact you are so aware of them, and the potential harm they could do, is a protective factor in itself. You and everyone else on this thread has the skill of self awareness, certainly one my parents never had. I think you'll be ok.
I tend to get feelings of resentment with my DC when I feel worn out with caring for them. I am trying my very hardest to give them everything I never got. People have said I try too hard. It saddens me though as I realise my parents did the bare minimum with me. They have so missed out.
Re. bullying behaviour. Normal sibling relationships involve some fighting and arguing. Your DD is not unique in that and it won't be long before your DS is giving as good as he gets. She is not bad, just a normal little girl.

Mimizan, thank you for saying encouraging and nice things. I feel I need it today as I am feeling a bit crap about myself due to drinking too much at weekend and behaving in a way I am ashamed of (I do deserve to feel crap).

I have been thinking about your other post, about you feeling like you have to be the one helping your dad. It seems unfair doesn't it when he is supposed to be the parent not you and you probably feel you would have liked a bit of help from him which you never got. I feel like this about my parents and brother and birth mother and birth father. I've tried to help them all but had no help myself from parents at all. Had some help from brother and birth mother recently which feels good though. When I first met birth mother and birth father (when I was about 24) they didn't ask me about myself and what life I had had and how I felt about the adoption etc. Birthmother talked about how awful the whole thing had been for her and then they talked to me about their problems with each other and the affair they started when she traced him on my behalf (both married to other people and had other children). I've never felt like the important one in any of my relationships apart from with my children. Even DH has done things which has made me feel like he just didn't notice I was even there when these other more 'exciting' people were present.

This is why I am so attention seeking and probably annoying (at least I recognise it though).

I can see why you would like your dad to think about you for once and for you to be the important one, not just somebody to talk at and get attention from. This shouldn't be what we have kids for.

AN- I always find I ruminate endlessly when I've drunk too much. The effects seem to go on for days and make me feel bad. Don't be too hard on yourself

I often feel terrible that I don't want to help my parents out. Other people are lovely to their parents and in-laws, taking them on holiday, organising surprise parties for them etc. The thought of going on holiday with either of my parents fills me with horror.

I spoke to my therapist about this, and she commented that it is kind of like an investment. If your parents gave lovingly and unconditionally to you as a child, then you are likely to want to do the same back, and get some enjoyment out of it. My parents can't have done this for us because I only feel resentment when they ask for anything from me. They always ask for lifts to the station and back when they visit. We always use taxis, and neither of my parents are short of cash, so I think they should do the same. My Dad expected this when I'd just had a baby. It's a pain loading 3 DC into the car to drive 30 minutes and back in traffic. I try to keep this resentment hidden from friends who have healthy relationships with their parents. I don't think they can comprehend what it is like to have unsupportive parents, just as I struggle to imagine life with supportive parents.
I hope so, so much I am supporting my DC appropriately. I would hate them to feel as I do when they are adults.

I sometimes feel that even DH ignores me when more exciting people are around. I have reflected on this, and think it's the same old story of being hypersensitive to feeling others are dismissing me.
BTW ActingNormal, I see no evidence of attention seeking or annoying behaviour in your posts.

Sorry for the length, but without my therapy sessions currently I am climbing walls.

I have so much anger these past few days. I feel like I could literally put my fist through a brick wall. Not good for DH or dcs, because even though I try desperately to hold it in I know how sensitive children can be and I?m sure they feel the air crackling with tension.

Prompted by your post AN-I think perhaps I?ve gotten to the bottom of my feelings toward ds currently. He is going through the stage of whining, nagging, - All typical threenage stuff, but I get so worked up with him; he turns into an adult for me somehow. I just want to yell at him to shutup?or tell him he is selfish. I don?t do this btw, thankfully. I did have this done to me as a child and so I know it?s inappropriate to pin such adult deficiencies onto a child.

I think on Sunday I finally got the connection.

We?d had a lovely day, went into town to a kiddies exhibition, I?d been wanting to take ds along to. He did enjoy it but, true to form?he whined?a lot.

After the exhibition we went for a walk in town and then took him on the ?eye?. Again he loved it.

On the way home once again the whining and nagging descends and so too did the red mist.

I literally put the brakes on the buggy and walked off. Of course DH was there so he promptly took over. As I was walking off of course I felt very bad immediately about my reaction and suddenly it dawned on me.

Nothing I have ever done for my parents was ever good enough. I have spent literally 40 years of my life trying ?desperately? to please them.

I see now how this transfers to ds. I try so hard (maybe too hard at times) to be the best mum to him. When he whines and nags I see this as a criticism, like I am failing in his eyes in my attempt to do what I?m trying to do to the best of my ability.

I obviously then see in a flash my mother and I instantaneously feel the hurt and anguish of not being good enough. Then I quash the pain with anger.

My reaction to my mother (later on as I began to hit my teens) was to give up. To not try. I guess I thought if I don?t do it at all, then there is nothing to criticize or pull apart and also maybe I was also trying to avoid the pain of always failing in her eyes.

I worry this stage is also starting to happen in part with ds. Not all the time, but recently I feel myself withdraw into my own little world. I spend too much time on the computer or any activity where I?m not directly connecting with him.

I hope this ?huge? realization will help me and ds in the long run.

Also, he is a little boy who needs me to set boundaries and this is my biggest challenge in a way. I can?t be efficient at boundary setting if, subconsciously, I am seeing him as my mother and am trying to please him. I must not burden him with the job of ?having to nurture mummy?s need to feel like she is a ?good? and acceptable mother and reassure her through his behavior mummy is doing a good job. As it is when I do lose my temper, he comes up and hugs me after as though to reassure me.

Im just wondering how on earth we can stop such deeply buried subconcious needs surfacing and becoming integral in our relationships with dcs?

I have been lurking - sorry - although I did post a couple of times a while back.

I wanted to say to Smithfield that you should really congratulate yourself on your self-awareness. I really think that by being aware of why you react to your son the way you do, you will contain the damage, because you will teach yourself to stop doing it.

My mother expressed all the rage she felt towards her own mother onto me from when I was quite young and it really damaged me. Even now, aged 34, I desperately crave her love and attention and it always comes back to sting me when she starts ranting about my "demands", about how she can't forgive me for competing with her for my father's love etc etc. Loony stuff. I just can't seem to find a way of maintaining a relationship with her that doesn't end up wounding me deeply. If she could have just recognised that the rage she thought she felt for me was actually displaced rage for her own mother, I think we would both have been spared a lot of pain.

I watch myself carefully in the way I interact with my own sons. I really think being aware of it is a major step forward.

And the next step is to learn how not to care so much what our mothers think or feel about us! Mine confesses that she doesn't love me, and didn't love me as a child, so why do I care so much? In a way it's sadder for her really - she missed so much not being able to connect with me.

db-'And the next step is to learn how not to care so much what our mothers think or feel about us! Mine confesses that she doesn't love me, and didn't love me as a child, so why do I care so much? In a way it's sadder for her really - she missed so much not being able to connect with me'

This is what I struggle with too. Im great at blaming myself for my mothers failings as my mother. I know I have said on here many times it is about reparenting, giving ourselves the nurturing and kindness we never recieved from our mothers etc. Its not that I dont believe this is the key, but I just never seem to make any headway with it myself.

I feel like I have a deeply embedded self loathing. I have this stubborn part of me that flat out 'refuses' finds excuses to do anything for myself which is positive.

I will think about taking that bath, or that walk or that swim....then I will grab a bar of chocolate and self soothe.

I guess at least I realise now what is at the route of it all. There was a time when I was not aware, that was when I was trying to self destruct.

Of course back then I continued to blame it all on external stuff, but really it was this damn internalised hatred of 'me'.
If only I was prettier, slimmer, taller, cleverer, had a better job, had a partner, had some kids, lived in a different county. lived in a different postcode.
I was trying desperately to escape being me!

Now I am realising that hatred of myself was absorbed through my mother. The way she looked at me, the way she interacted with me, it all screamed 'I DONT LIKE YOU'.

BUT....the very fact 'my own mother couldnt like me' is fused with my ownself hatred and I cant seem to part the two.

I dont even know where to begin.

I really related to your post because...my mother unleashed her hatred of my father (and maybe on some level her dislike of her own self)on to me.

When I was pg with dd I remember being hunched over in the corner of 'my own' kitchen...as if trying to make myself invisible from her and she called me short and fat and that I was just like my father. I wish Id just frog marched her out of my house, and bounced her scrawny ass with my big fat belly. But I just took it. I guess that was the part of me that still wanted her to love me, regardless.

I think it relates back to another of AN's posts, the difficulty is always relating back to the fact we were just children, not the adults we have become because of their abuse.

Smithfield - I recognise the self-loathing you are talking about because I used to be full of it too. I went so far as to try to seriously harm myself about five years ago. (All before I had children)

But I have made headway towards overcoming it by finally accepting that my mother hates me because she hates herself. It is all about how she feels about herself and nothing to do with me at all.

I think the answer is to finally accept that you were denied the love and approval you should have had from your mother, that it is a tragedy, that you should have had better from her but, finally, you didn't get what you deserved as a child from your mother and that's all there is to it. Accept that you can't change that. And then - just as you are already doing - make damn sure you don't repeat the cycle with your own kids. Kill the pattern here and now. Because I think this is a pattern which has played itself out through many generations, probably my grandmother had a toxic mother too and on and on.

You're right about wanting to fix your mother. I spent my childhood being expected to nurture my mother and help her and make her better. But I can't. It's not possible. It's not my job.

The problems in your mother's head are HER problems, they are not yours and you have to stop taking responsibility for them. The way she feels about you is not your fault.

I don't think I am all of the way there yet, but I do think I am a hell of a long way further along than I was just a few years ago.

Smithfield/Dollbird, I feel so sad for you that your mothers made it so obvious they didn't love you and that made you feel unloveable. They didn't even try to hide it!
If you were badly behaved, and you probably weren't, it was because your parents didn't teach you how to behave properly. I made a list of things to remember by reading it each day to help me feel better and be better and one of the things is Don't blame your children for their behaviour as you are the one teaching them how to behave and cope with their feelings.

Sometimes I feel like I don't love DD (I hate admitting that) but I say to myself that showing love to my children whatever they do and whoever they are is the main part of my job as a mother. I might not feel love for a whole day if they are being really annoying or if I am feeling 'psycho' but I want to try to show love at regular intervals throughout the day whether I feel it or not. I'm not saying I always achieve this.

I find it hard to motivate myself to make the effort (it's depression I think) but I'm trying to build self esteem from thinking of motherhood and 'wifedom' as my job, just like if I went out to work, and then trying to feel pride in that job by doing it the best I can and finding strategies to be good at it the same way I used to approach my paid jobs. It sounds good doesn't it and I'm making a start but wouldn't say I felt any good at it just yet.

I can so relate to what you said Smithfield about trying so hard to do your best and then your child still whines and is unsatisfied and it makes you angry because they have made you feel you haven't been good enough. You don't want to be made to feel you are as crap as your own parents when you were on a mission to do better than them. Maybe we are going too far the other way though in trying to please our children too much when we just need to do a reasonable amount and at the same time actively teach them about being grateful and thankful for what they have and get them to notice good things and talk about being happy about these little good things. That is how we should all learn to be happy I suppose.

There was nothing wrong with you both, you were children so you didn't know how to behave until someone taught you, and your parents taught you to see bad in yourselves and probably others as well. It takes a big effort to change and think differently when this has become a habit. The only way I can do it is by carrying a scrap of paper in my pocket and writing on it every positive thought I have throughout the day about myself and my day etc. The more I do it, when I remember to do it, the more I get into the habit of thinking positive thoughts. I have all these cool ideas, I just keep forgetting to do them.

You weren't deficient, your mothers were. They probably weren't capable of loving themselves or anyone else either, not truly loving them, not just you. This is what I think about my parents and birth mother. They don't truly love anyone, not even themselves so it's 'not personal' if they don't love me. They are crap, find people who can feel and show love, and build relationships with them instead. Decide you don't need it from them anymore, they are unlikely to change anyway, find what you need elsewhere and then think "fck you, I don't need you". It feels really liberating. Don't let those inadequate people make you feel crap any longer, it makes me angry. Their opinions of you don't count for sht! (I love it when the anger comes out )

I'm really starting to think it isn't our jobs to help our parents (unless we really want to), since my Therapist said it, like you said it DollBird. They were supposed to look after us and they failed. If helping them reminds us of this and hurts and makes us too unhappy to look after our own DCs properly then don't do it. If they need help it is their responsibility to find it for themselves like you are finding it for yourself through therapy or through MN etc. You are taking responsibility for yourself. You are stronger than them.

And another thing, if your parents couldn't see anything good about you they were blind fools. I don't really know you and have never met you, but just from reading your posts I can see good things about most of you on here - you care about your children, you are trying to be even better mothers and think about what you're doing rather than blindly stumbling on, you are kind and supportive and help each other, you have loads of insight and understanding and are always saying things that I find incredibly useful and thought provoking.

Sorry to go on and on and sound arrogant in places.

db1- I got pulled away yesterday, but I wnated to say 'thankyou'(holding out a heart emoticon) for your final post. I found it incredibly helpful and I know it must not have been entirely easy for you to share it.
I wanted to ask if you have contact with your mother still?

AN- Thankyou for your words. Strangely I was a very well behaved child, when I hit my teens I became 'aggressive' according to my mum.

Even when I was behaving well though she managed to find fault with me. It was more her controlling me and micro managing me I think...it made me feel I could do nothing right and could not function for myself.
She never held me or cuddled me she always kept her distance pysically.

She always seemed angry at me and would snap and snarl at me for no reason.
I remember once she was trying to get my hair up into a ponytail and I had a cold so I kept moving my head to wipe my nose. She slapped me around the face and yelled at me to keep still. This was not an everyday occurrance but things like this would happen and I would have no idea what I had done.

Another time I had misbehaved (apparently) and she slapped my face, I was older and had grown stubborn and I refused to cry. So she hit me again harder. It knocked me down so I stood up and looked straight at her in defiance. So she hit me again and called me 'evil'. I still remember the feeling in my nose 'it was buzzing'. There was no remorse from her. She was just visibly cross she hadnt managed to break me.

As I got older she would 'pick on me', pick fights with me until Id blow. Once that happened I would become ostrasised as she would go around playing victim to my siblings and my dad.

These days she denies I even exist (to her friends) because my very existence betrays her age. There are for that very reason no pictures of myself, my siblings or our children in her house.

I have flashes, when ds is stubborn and disobedient??? where I could just grab him. I would be alleviating my stress levels by doing this and using him as a tool to do it.

When I do on occassion yell I feel an instant release. BUT I know this is 'wrong' 'wrong' 'wrong'.I always apologise after for 'yelling'. I try and say his behaviour is what is wrong and use appropriate words to describe why Im not happy with his behaviour. I do this because I love him, and I will do the same for dd.

Like your dd An, ds is most like me emotionally, which I am sure sometimes that is why I find dealing with him difficult. I have only felt like this since he turned 3 and I feel that age was very troubled for me also.

I thank god I do have insight. But what I would like now is to not feel this anger at all because my DCs are not and never could be the source of such anger...And I admit that it does get redirected to dh.

My mother has never said verbally she dislikes me. She is far too (IMO) manipulative to say this. And maybe she does believe she is loving me by trying to make me into a better person? Who knows. Who cares