"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Coconutoil, your story is shocking and I wish I could say something to make it better. I can't believe your parents saying they don't know why your sister behaves the way she does and that she must be ill - can they not see that they taught her to be like that by encouraging her to think she was better than you and gave her role models of bullies by their behaviour towards you? And now they want you to continue to put up with it - why should you? Your feelings are just as important as theirs.

Ally90, you said about people on MN remaining here for each other even if people in RL don't. I feel that if you all met me in the flesh and saw what I look like and heard how I sound then you wouldn't take me as seriously as you do now, you would think I was a stupid child and not worth listening to or paying attention to and that other people are better than me and more worthy. You would end up ignoring me and giving all your attention to someone else. I've just written my deep down worries as they came into my head - God I didn't realise I was still so deranged!

A couple of you said about disclosing too many personal details when you first meet people - me too. When I've done it, it's been partly because I'm desperate to talk and talk about stuff and try to sort it out in my mind and partly attention seeking I think. I too, don't think people will find me interesting if I just act 'normal', I always seem to try to shock people or do something outrageous to entertain them. I just don't think people would even notice I exist if I didn't. I've always felt like an irrelevance. I never felt important. This attention seeking is childish but I wanted to feel important and wanted as a child, never found it, and am still looking for it. I'm still learning how to build normal relationships based on sharing normal every day stuff.

This MN is really making me see some important stuff! Sorry to go on and on, thank god you don't know who I am.

Your making me acting normal...just imagine we could all live in the same town............and yes I feel pretty shoddy about my friendships most of the time...why do they like me is a common thought...or 'i've blown it now'...always a shock when someone wants to be friends with me...and my voice isn't dulcet...I've a deep voice... to go with feet and build! Tho I was told yesterday by nice neighbour that I was slim (not that I took that in...much easier to believe sister and mother that I'm fat) and my other nice friend told me my feet were perfectly normal and my (now ex ) friend was the one with the problem and probably jealous...

So to hell with my (ex) friend...I say buy more stripy spotty brightly coloured socks...then we will know each other when we meet .

...So I think I look too small and weedy with a high pitched voice and my dress sense is too young/scruffy (and that people can somehow see that I'm 'psycho') and you think you are too big with a low voice and crazy socks! We might look quite comical together . Either that or we are both misguided and would look perfectly normal and nobody would notice anything remarkable.

Yesterday I dyed my hair (dark purply brown) and put a bit on my eyebrows, but unfortunately too much and left it on too long and my eyebrows went really prominent and embarrassing I've scrubbed them with lemon juice and they have calmed down a bit...

Hi
Smithfield-about trust and your frustrated disappointment (I'm glad it turned out well)-I know what you mean. It is like fundamental things like trust apply to others but not me. Lip service is cheap so I am forever saying "I'll believe it when I see it." Cynical? yep. I trust, but in the back of my mind there is always a roving eye looking for the "watch out" flag(s). The trust thing though has to start out with baby steps; test the waters with little superficial things.

Exercise: walk with baby in stroller is my current favorite; also Dance Dance Revolution believe it or not as I have no grace or rhythm. Swimming is great if you can fit it in your schedule. The water is soothing; especially swimming underwater.

Hi Ally, Acting Normal,
Silly socks are pretty standard around here, except for me. But maybe it is what I need to do. DH is wearing colorful geometrics, ds is wearing socks with sculls on them, dd1 has ones with smiley characters on them...I need to get on this band wagon. I'm usually in athletic socks with tennis shoes. To get away from that-I try to be in dark: black or brown with black or brown shoes (some effort to try to match a sock with a shoe-not that I can match much else). Make up sometimes, most times not though. Mom never bothered to show me how and I wasn't going the flower child route of Oldest Sister and Middle Sister just looked like a clown with too much eye shadow. When I do wear make up it is minimal, never mascara or eyeliner, chapstick or gloss for the lips. And 99 out of 100 days, my hair will be in a ponytail.
I am usually in denim or kakies (sp) and a polo shirt (a step up in fashion for me-used to be always a t-shirt)...background person.
At the playground (when ds & dd1 were in elementary school 7 or 8 years ago), I'm the one that will say hello to everyone-no matter who they are or what they look like-then stand just far enough away...I don't know-I don't force myself on people...excuse-I'm just not a great conversationalist...again-background person- just don't feel like I fit in. I sit on the edge and draw patterns in the dirt with a stick. Or walk the perimeter, kind of a trash patrol, balance on the playground edging.
I don't really try to "fit in"- to pro-actively "fit in"...I am more "wait for the invitation". I don't get a lot of invites, but that is not how I define myself so it doesn't really bother me. It probably should bother me more than it does. No, I'm not a party girl. I think I've talked through this before: it is ok to not be a social butterfly.

My son finished his counseling a couple of weeks ago and I am continuing on for myself. Already a break through in understanding Middle Sister.
This is what MS said to my daughter (then 13 yrs) last Aug when I had her come be with ds & dd while dh & I went for genetic testing for my pg...
"If you ever find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy, you will come to me first."
Counselor's jaw dropped. She said I had been giving Middle Sister too much credit (in calling her NPD, doing power plays at my expense). Counselor said in that exchange, my dd1 did not exist.
It takes my breath away...that is exactly the way she is with me--I don't exist. So many examples come to mind, bells ringing 24/7.
Counselor said this was a very huge problem for Middle Sister. More validation that it isn't me.
Reflecting back to the way my Mother was...to her I was invisible, unloved; whether if it was because of alcohol/psych meds or perhaps she just didn't like me because I was a tom-boy (very athletic). Mother just wouldn't validate me-it was always a ridicule or some other "obvious" correction, if any attention at all. And that is the way Middle Sister treats me...she is mirroring Mom. It also fits in with how she treats my Oldest Sister-treats her as inferior and immoral because Mother would shout, etc during the teenage years. So Oldest Sister and I don't exist. We are just puppets so Middle Sister can "play Mommy".
Counselor said I was dysthymic-minor depression over years. It is interesting-I agree. My baseline -someone mentioned even keeled recently (I always thought I was even keeled but in truth just don't have emotional responses because I don't know how)(at least I don't mirror Mom!)
Digressed, sorry. My baseline has been suppressed, push down, depressed. I've kept my expectations low (believe it when I see it, take "no" for an answer far too easily). Counselor said the reason I did not go into major depression was because I could self-talk (I told her how I talked my self out of panic attacks and she said that was me rebelling in my mind-even though my mind created the panic attack my mind then rebelled-I think I've gone over this before here). So that was my rebelling.
She also said I didn't go into major depression because of all the sports that I did-not only physically making me feel better-endorphins(?)-but it was all self-validating.

So to Middle Sister-other people just don't exist. One little story: she was friends with neighbors through the dogs. The neighbors had discussed painting their foyer and hallway but couldn't decide what color. This went on for a while. They went on a 10 day vacation and asked MS to feed their dog. Well, MS painted their foyer and hall while they were away-I guess she chose the color for them. When she told me she was going to do this, I said, "MS, don't you think that is risky?" She said, yeah...and nothing else...but still did it. I never did hear how they liked it, and in fact, I never did hear much more about them since then.
Counselor said she has no sense of boundaries, but I think it also ties into with her not seeing other people exist.

Sorry this post went on so long. Thanks for listening/reading.

TMSB- Thanks for your posts. Very thought provoking.

Reflecting back to the way my Mother was...to her I was invisible, unloved; whether if it was because of alcohol/psych meds or perhaps she just didn't like me because I was a tom-boy (very athletic). Mother just wouldn't validate me-it was always a ridicule or some other "obvious" correction, if any attention at all

Relate to this. I dont think my mum liked/likes me because a) I was a mistake, and in light of her marriage, I rendered her trapped in that marriage in her prime b) I remind her of my dad and his family who she hates c) Better to lash out and take all her frustrations on someone who couldnt fight back.

I remember saying to her once 'Why dont you like me?

Its a huge thing to not feel liked by your own mother. Its a double whammy for that mother to have 'taught' your siblngs where you must always sit in the pecking order. Which means if we want to break free of the labels our mothers gave us we probably have to forsake our siblings too (lucky for you you have Os, and I mean that sincerely).

Anyway, I am working on the concept (which Ally has pointed out many times). Her dislike for me (one persons opinion only)
But tis hard to swallow regardless because that one person who seemingly disliked me with some intensity was my own mother. Its supposed to be a sacred relationship after all.

The mother and child relationship and 'our' mothers sacrificed that relationship to satisfy their own needs. In my mothers case it was to turn her hatred of my father on to someone else.

As with you TMSB, we need to try and see ourselves through different eyes.

As for the dysthemia. Are you going to seek any treatment? Thankyou for sharing this...I think this is me too . No wonder I felt like a completely different person when I went on meds for the first time in my life after ds.

Hi Smithfield-
Counselor said talk therapy would work for me as I've already given examples of it.
Another example was when I found out about being pg again-the shock-it was a surprise. I went through the roller coaster of emotions but then simply decided to focus on the positive, love, and joy of (having) the new baby.

Last week, Dh came back from his trip and said I looked much stronger. It was from this weight of MS crap lifted from me-the FOG is now gone. It bothered me that we were not in contact (not that I wanted or looked forward to contact, no- that I dreaded) , maybe it was that she has not yet seen my baby... "family duty" training.
No, not any more. My childhood role of wearing the "coat of invisibility" (as counselor put it) is now over. MS will expect me to wear it for her to treat me like I don't exist (hungry ego - playing her role as matriarch), but I'm not doing it anymore.

She would announce her plans to come and then maybe (not always) as an after thought might ask if that is ok with us. Me, dh & family don't exist in making plans for ourselves.

Another good point from counselor: I do have social skills! I could see that MS wanting to give me a baby shower wasn't about me, it was about her calling in favors from all of her friends-it would have been her friends at the shower not mine (if I had any ).

MS won't change so there will be friction (putting it mildly) if we ever do have contact again. I am not backing down for "happy hockey sticks" for her ever again.
Why let her meet dear baby? DD2 is just someone else she can treat like they don't exist. Do I think MS is upset about all this? I am beginning to doubt it - after all why would she be upset over people who don't exist? She is happy- "living well-best revenge" with her material things and her dog; probably trying to convince herself it is my loss. I am losing the depression, that is my loss .

Ally-thanks for sharing about your sister. I know it was a while back, but I remember and thanks. I thought the idea of toxic parents transferring to toxic siblings was a stretch, but you helped validate my feelings.

Hi All, I've not been on this thread for weeks now. I start therapy tommorrow. I've really cut myself off from my family(of origin) lately and I am feeling better,but also quite bereft. I think my DC are feeling it too.(they miss the extended family.) I hope I am doing the right thing, but feel I am pinning a lot of hopes on the therapy being effective.

Perhaps I need to start a new thread as you are all so established. I do feel it could help to have someone to talk to alongside my sessions.

Mimizan-

You can talk to me. I dont consider myself to be that far along at all.
I only broke contact with my parents in November last year and I am still grieving now.
It is an amotional rollercoaster indeed and yes there are some on here that are further on but they will pull you through the lows and applaud you on the highs.
I felt very low lately and it is only through coming back on here that I started to feel better again.

But you could start your own thread too, either is fine

How old are your dc's by the way?

'e'motional rollercoater

Mimizan, I felt scared about joining this thread at first too so I understand. It seemed like everyone knew each other and I was an impostor and I felt that my experiences weren't 'bad' enough for me to be 'whinging'. I think a lot of people feel like this! It is good to have people at the same stage as you but it could also be good to have people 'further along' - they remember what it was like at your stage and can tell you about useful thoughts they had or useful things their therapist said etc. Sometimes you just need someone to put something into different words, words that really make you personally understand and then something suddenly makes more sense. The more people you have got, saying it in different words, the more chance you have of having that 'lightbulb moment'

Keep posting Mimizan, I always feel so proud of the people who join this thread...you really are special for being here, acknowledging what happened was not right and like the rest of us just trying to move on, step by step (or sliding back again...just like snakes and ladders! But quicker to get back to the top of the ladder again).

AN - read another of your posts on another thread today...I was at all that had happened to you...and I think you posting about your sessions with the therapist is a great idea, and helps me too reading it. Your therapist is right about the brain of the individual...how on earth can we all possibly get across how much pain we have had? No one but us know what we have been through...to say your pain is less than other peoples makes no sense when you think about it that way...notice all of us start with 'I should not really be here' even with the most post...like yours...

Hi TMSB stripy socks are the way forward! I'm going to do more make up I think from now on...look after my skin and get some brighter clothes because I do feel better wearing them...my lovely pink stripy socks make me happy I also do vaseline for my lips rather than lipstick...

TMSB and Smithfield - I think being invisible is part of our role in life...I always felt like my feelings and needs did not exist, always my mother and her feelings...ditto with sis. And now I am asserting my rights...its still all about them!! I need a brick wall to bang my head against...or theirs Smithfield, I get the 'lashing out on someone who could not fight back' I always look back and think 'how could you?!' I was the youngest yet it was always me who was picked upon...just schoolground bullying but so awful to do to your own dd/sibling. And that's why I'm always so shocked when I make friends so easily (like I say tho...not the right ones!! I'm good at attracting abusive people).

TMSB, again I'm really glad I helped with validating your sisters abuse of you...I feel its not so much transfered but learnt behaviour. Deep down I feel really sad for my sister because she will most likely never break free of her abuse and become the person she should have been with appropriate parenting...but does not stop me protecting myself from her now! I will always say that siblings are capable of abuse, even at a young age. Just think if this sort of thing happened at school or at a workplace there would be procedures to go through to stop the behaviour.

Coconutoil - got your holiday booked? Lucky lucky you...thought of visiting the gardens of Heligan? Just read book on it... you are going down to cornwall! Anything else happened since your post? How are you feeling?

VS - So your mum 'can't' (read that as 'will not') find you on the internet...but she can find a relative to emotionally blackmail you back again Ever heard of the term 'hoover'? Picked it up on an american website...very discriptive...

And now for me! I have had (expected due to my bday) contact from mother...v reasonable bday card...actually first one that did not make me want to vomit in a long time...but spoilt it all with a postcard to my dd who at 2.2yrs is still unable to read...she points out that the 'grandma bear on the postcard has a trolley like mine' grandma bear in question (exhibit a) is holding the hand of a grandchild bear...one assumes...bit hard to age bears...what say you Bearsmom? Also addresses it to Our Dear Darling (ddname)...mine is 'to ally'...must stop reading these things...but always the hope she will change...would make my life easier I think if she did start to accept responsibility and developed a memory of not just pleasant events but unpleasant one's that happened...(brick wall needed again...)

Take care all and keep posting!

allyxxx

Smithfield- Thanks for your response. I got it before my session and it was good to know there would be someone to talk to afterwards. My DC are 3, 6 and 8.

ActingNormal- I so know what you mean about feeling things aren't as bad as they were for others. I have been so scared of seeming like a whinger. I know other people have had much, much worse childhoods than me. However mine was utterly crap, and seeing the therapist today validated that for me. I feel a strong sense of relief at speaking out to a stranger about it. I am soooooo angry though, although that is not a new emotion. I am really looking forward to moving on from anger to acceptance ultimately. I know there's going to be a lot of disbelief, sadness and grief before then.
I hate my Dad and his wife(my step-mum) at the moment. The session today has strengthened this hatred. I need to deal with them first, and put my feelings towards my Mum to one side. I feel overwhelmed by what needs to be worked through.

I can really relate to your feelings of not enjoying family contact, but the feeling sad for your parents and understanding what made them crap, ActingNormal. What upsets me so much is that my Dad and his wife still hurt me when I dare to see them. I don't think I need to understand that, because they have no reason to keep putting me down as an adult. I know parenting children can be hard but there is no excuse for continuing to be cruel to grown up children surely. I really would like to tell them exactly what I think of them, but need to feel stronger before I do it.

Ally- thanks for your support. I always find your postings encouraging

BTW it wasn't just some boy who stuck his tongue in my mouth it was my GF - so incestuous and he must of known it was also wrong to do it to an underaged girl

ActingNormal- Sorry if this sounds ignorant but what is GF? I thought it was grandfather, but then it sounds like it is a child you are talking about. However, whoever it was, whatever their age was wrong to do those things to you. It was sexual abuse and your parents failed to protect you from it. If they had been good enough parents it would probably not have happened. Firstly you were obviously very vulnerable for the person to have targeted you to abuse. Secondly loving, caring parents who are switched onto their child would notice that their child was unhappy, and would try to find out what was going on. Thirdly you actually told your mum what was going on, and she failed to act.

You are very brave and strong to talk about was happened. I don't know about the MN rules, hopefully somebody who does will be along soon.

My parents don't physically hurt me, the abuse was never physical. They were emotionally and physically neglectful. Now I am an adult, the abuse is in the form of subtle put-downs and continual undermining of who I am or what I do. Written down that looks terrible, but that is what they do to me. I rephrase that, as that is what they did to me. As of yesterday I am not going to let them do it to me anymore. How I actually do this I don't quite know. I just know I need to put a stop to it. I hardly have contact with my Dad and his wife anymore which helps, but all the feelings from the past are still there eroding my self-esteem and confidence.

AN - my god he was not right to do ANY of that...would you do it to your grandchild??? Oh course you WOULD NOT BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG!! He was the adult (as much as he may have wanted to be treated like a child.) He had a RESPONSIBILITY as did your mother and father to PROTECT YOU! He would have known what he was doing was wrong. But he did it anyway. What does that say about him? He may also have been loving...I understand from other posts on sexual abuse that can be part of the confusion...the abuser is loving...but also does very wrong things such as in your case...and for a child...well you want love...and if you are taught if you love someone you are 'nice' to them. You did not stop him because we are brought up from babyhood to trust them utterly, we literally depend upon them for our safety, food, shelter etc all stuff from the caveman days when there were no care homes or safety net if you were deserted. You could not have known what was happening was wrong. I know at 16 with my first sexual partner I still had no clue what was going on because I didn't understand what was right or wrong or a strange thing to do...and I was of age and consenting with a boyfriend. Not a family member. You are NOT whinging out of turn (you too Mimizan!) what happened was WRONG...or not okay to use therapist talk, and should not have been allowed to happen. As for your mother...how could she not believe you and read the signs? Says much more about her, that it does about you. You were a child...does not matter if you were seen as troublesome or anything else they may have labelled you as, you had a RIGHT to be BELIEVED.

AN- It wasnt your fault! Nor was it your fault that you did dismiss these things either.

The person you relied on and had 'ultimate' trust in-your mother- made you feel like the issue was 'yours' and not your perpetrators.
She has handed you such a skewed view of things by doing this. But remember it is 'her' view of things tou have absorbed. And HER view is not right on any level!.

On the other thread I felt so that you felt none of these things would have happened to a 'better' person (or words to that effect).
Firstly because I relate to this myself, but also on reading your account I just feel shocked and saddened that the people you trusted made you feel this way on any level at all.
I think I said to you before AN and I will say it again.

... You have suffered SO MUCH betrayal in your life. You should be proud to have survived and become the kind, honest, beautifully natured person you actually are.

As Ally has said before others perceptions are often different to our own. Your story IMHO is one of the most shocking and sad on here.

Also wanted to add-that you must try and remember you were just an innocent child when you experienced all of this. I think because we grow up to become 'adult children' it is sometimes hard to get our head around that fact.
Try looking at a picture of yourself at the age these things happened. I hear that helps to bring perspective.

Mimizan- Dont have much time. But I really relate to what you were saying about the abuse continuing in to adulthood. Mine did too, which is why I took the decision to not see my mother for a while (my father also). I do believe it is much the same as leaving any abusive relationship. You need time and distance in order to gain perspective because whilst in an abusive relationship your thinking becomes skewed and your self esteem is so low due to the abuse.
Basically we've been in abusive relationships since birth. That's a long time and a lot of repair work is needed as a result of that.

Got to go dd is screaming! No time to edit so sorry if this makes little sense.

oneplusone if you are still posting on this thread. I am new to mumsnet, but stumbled across this as I am currently (desperately) trying to get over my awful relationship with my mother.

You wrote this some time ago: "I have realised that a lot of the anger and rage i sometimes feel towards DD, is not anything to do with her, but to do with emotions that have surfaced from my childhood ... The only reason i know this is because i have read so many books on this subject ...
It has taken me what feels like forever to work this out but I know it's the truth as DD never has and never will do anything to deserve the sheer amount of rage and fury and i am ashamed to say hatred i have felt towards her on occasion."

My mother displayed similar rage and hatred towards me as a child and still does. I realise it is because of what she suffered at the hands of her own toxic mother (who abandoned her for the first few years of her life among other things).

Can you tell me which books you have read about this - I really want to find out more to try to understand it. My mother recently admitted to me (in the latest of a series of poison-pen letters) that she does not and did not love me as a child and that she can "never forgive me" for trying to take my father's love away from her. She has basically lost the plot and is also an alcoholic - clearly I never tried to take my father from her, I just had a natural close bond with him and she hated that. Not that he ever did anything to protect me from her - I am furious with them both.

Thanks so much for any suggestions if you see this.

Dollius Birdus1 - Toxic Parents will be one...another one I recommend is 'divorce a parent' by beverley engel...there will be others...I know Oneplusone is still around so sure she will be here soon...in the meantime why don't you keep posting on here You are right to be furious at both your parents...adn I know about poison pen letters .

And guess what all!!! I have contact from my sister today...an oh sooooooooooo funny bday card saying 'remember all those embarressing clothes mum used to dress us in? You can stop now...and there is love from x and 'the door is always open...'. Can she just LISTEN to herself??? Honestly, no wonder I have problems wearing bright stripy socks...this is part of our relationship...my sister (forgot about this) sends 'funny' cards (oh someone call the dr...I need stitches...) that are abusive and making it 'right' because its a Hallmark card. So even now she is carrying on the abusive messages...now I'm thinking 'did she see what I was wearing a few weeks ago when she was in my town?'...[paranoid emotion] 'do I look odd?' [even more paranoid emotion] 'do I look fat too [paranoid overdrive] SHES A COWBAG! But I have never told her that she makes inappropriate comments, but with a NORMAL human being should I have too? with normal feelings and empathy of course...cow cow cow with horns on...fuckity bitch...munting c.... So glad I can share this, now its typed down its out of my head and its not subconciously effecting me...I can see exactly why I have paranoid feelings about my body all of a sudden. Don't my mother and sister realise with every contact they reveal a) they show they do not respect me b) they don't care about my feelings c) they are WEIRD. And insensitive to boot. Wish I coudl boot them up the a...... oh well...going outside now to do some gardening (squish aphids) and watering and plant my new lavender and just chill...oh and card was hand delivered by my sister...creepy again...I don't want contact...so they come to my house...now want to yell in west country accent 'gerof myyy laanndd!'

Rant over.

Thank goodness I'm relatively normal

I have posted on here before under my other name. I just saw this and it made me feel weird about my mother. It is very to admit but I think I preferred getting her mean letters than nothing at all as I knew where I stood then. I also knew what she was up too. Since my hubby and I wrote to her asking her to leave us alone I have heard nothing but tbh I am no better off as I don't know if my MIL is secretly in touch with her. My MIL is a big one for not ever lying, and will say something hurtful rather than a lie, but she managed to keep it a secret for months that she had spoken to my mother and told her I had had my baby and his name.

Ally 90 - thanks so much for your reply - I will look for those. Although I know my DH is correct to say I should just stop thinking about them because my mother is clearly mad, I just can't seem to get over craving her love and affection. I need to find a way to break free of that. Sometimes I thank goodness I don't have any daughters myself.
I do believe she has tried to overcome her hatred of me - she has shown some great kindness, and she really loves my boys - but I feel we go through this routine of patching up our relationship and then it all comes crashing down again because she can't stop drinking and she can't stop lashing out at me. The rest of the family turns a blind eye to both these problems because of course acknowledging them would mean having to tackle them.
I am a lot better than I was - I have good self esteem these days, but I still feel grief-stricken about this. Before I met my husband and had my boys, though, I hit rock bottom and tried to harm myself quite seriously. I know it was all connected to my mother - and she ignored all that - refused to acknowledge what I had done to myself. It is Never To Be Mentioned, if you know what I mean.
Gosh I could ramble on for ever, but I want to say that I think all of you ladies are so strong and marvellous and well done for being so self-aware. Hopefully we will not repeat the cycles our parents did.