"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Ally- dont worry, I will have done the crash course for you and be on hand with some unsound?sound advice

Learn from my mistakes NOW....

It is tough but I should also say it is also worth it...shame we/I always come on here to gripe. DD is turning into a bit of angel baby, very sociable and loves being on the go. (second one slots right in).

I have always had an insecure relationship with ds because of the birth I think...so that doesnt help. I guess I feel very alone with it all at the moment. Doing lots of networking but no-one close to me like (a mum) to say how would you do this or how would you do that to.

At ds' nursery they said god he loves his mummy doesnt he....but I am deaf and blind you know.

You'll be fine,,,but I think it does get harder for 'US' IYKWIM when they start developing their own personalities.

Smithfield

I use that word "dreaded" with my MIL as well. As well as dysfunctional, unhealthy etc. My dear sweet DH hears all that with regards to them. But that's for another time.

I would 100% agree with all of Ally's (hello Ally) responses to you. This MIL of yours also is as mad as a box of cut snakes. She is trying to undermine you completely. Do not let her.
There needs to be a resetting of boundaries and your DH needs to speak firmly to his Mother.

Does this woman have to look after your son at all, I would find someone else if at all possible.

(My BIL does the not talking bit to his Mother for weeks at a time on occasion - it is totally toxic. My son rarely goes around MIL's without both of us being present. He's older than your son so its a bit easier).

Your son won't be damaged at all emotionally by your outburst. I think anyone would have acted the way you did in such trying circumstances.

Yours with the fluffy Egyptian cotton towels

Attila x

Ahhh thanks atilla- the egyptian fluffy ones are the best. (lying head on warm fluffy egyptian towel)

I never had any doubt that BIL and FIl were toxic. In fact since having moved here I discovered them to be at BEST toxic at WORST bullies.

It was 'me' standing up to the bullying that ended in 6months of being ostrasised. Think there is still some resentment toward dh over that. Think he should have stood up to them not me. He did but not without me threatening to leave him.

Always saw MIl as the victim (she conveniently said she wasnt taking sides back then . I'd even felt sorry for her. Realise now she is possibly more like the puppeteer to FIL's puppet.

Feel constantly like ds is already damaged cos I am his mother, I seem to be apologising to him a lot lately

You are right of course but it is Really hard to find alternative for ds especially when ds declares 'I dont like nursery mummy...can I go to nanna's house!.
AND he loves seeing his cousin, which nanna knows of course and uses as leaverage.

Isnt it mad though....both me and dh come from very controlling parents. Although DH doesnt see it that way.

No wonder we met in australia!

May have to consider another move methinks They must have caller ID there too right??

Ahhh thanks atilla- the egyptian fluffy ones are the best. (lying head on warm fluffy egyptian towel)

You're very welcome for the egyptian towels!.

Presumably your DH does not realise how awful these people really are.

Sometimes it take such drastic action to get the message across. Did he finally listen then?.

Think the MIL is the bystander; she's quite happy for everyone else to take the flack. She likely wears the trousers in that house in relationship terms.

No your DS is not already damaged because you are his mother, good god no, no and thrice NO!!!!!.

When you apologise to your son it shows him that you are human too and you've acknowledged him. He is a toddler, bless his cotton socks, and we all learn from each other.

Just writing out of the top of my head here but re his cousin can you meet up somewhere else like the park, one of those soft ball thing play areas, local swimming pool?. Anywhere infact but the dreaded MILs house?.

(On a wider note why doesn't DS like nursery, have the staff there made any approaches to you on this matter?).

I think personally you're a fine mother to both your children; its the godawful toxic rellies that are letting you and the side down.

D'you wanna hear about my grotty lot?!!.

Smithfield

It may help to try and get of a copy of the following book:-

"If You Had Controlling Parents: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Take Your Place in the World" by Dan Neuharth. Its on Amazon.

You and DH met in Australia eh - altogether now ahhh!!!. God, that country is a long way away from here!! (went there last year).

Yours with towel

Attila x

Attila- I think you should definately spill re 'your grotty lot'. Does your DH listen to you? Tough when they dont see it.

DH did take action, yes, but under threat from me.It was more to do with standing up to his dad and brother though. But his mother can do no wrong. 'she just wants the best for everyone..or is just trying to be helpful'. Yes she does wear the trousers, but acts like its the other way around.

Re nursery- He is just a very sensitive little boy who I think is probably more suited to an intimate environment.(uhm bit of a mummys boy really).
I've always struggled with it, especially when they tell me (a year on) he still gets upset and cries for me. But it does seem to be getting better. But he would 'prefer' not to go.
Loves socialising on a smaller scale though. Plus only goes two days to nursery which I think personally makes it harder to settle.

I dont know if the contrast between being at nannas (two days) and being at nursery helped him settle either (if that makes sense)

God, that country is a long way away from here!!

Exactly

Think DH is realising exactly what his family (well his brother and to a lesser extent his Dad. Mum remains untouchable) are like now (dysfunctional, unhealthy) but its taken a long time for him to see it properly. I of course have seen it for years having got female insight and disinterested parents myself.

There are many issues but the main one at present is the BIL. Years ago I had a bet with my salt of the earth DH that BIL would still be at home when he's 40. I won that bet and to date he's still there with his parents whom he walks over.

His brother is still behaving in a toxic manner - not talking to MIL for weeks at a time, going off on one when he does not get his own way. You would not think this would be possible for a grown man of middle age would you?.

This is not even a quarter of it really. You should have heard him spout off in the fish shop a few weeks back - it was embarrassing to say the least. All of the other customers in there were open mouthed.

Sigh.

Need hot towel myself. Well that and plenty of distance.

Attila- and again there is distinct familiarity between BIL interaction (kept childdlike) and your own brothers, with your mum waiting on him (again a childlike existence). But you've prob twigged that one already.

Bil sounds dreadful. But it is the parents that keep him in this almost preserved teen state. Question is why?

Because the mother needs to be needed...

Australia sounds a good idea for both of you! Actually all of us Perhaps we could all club together and buy a remote island, temperate climate, lots of fruit and veg to grow...and all non toxic people and no way for our rellies to reach us or send postcards

Have you tried a childminder Smithfield? They do a more intimate environment...less children, at their home usually...ask for more info in the childminding/nursery area on here...they are more highly qualified as well...could be an answer for you? Not sure about cost...think its about the same???

Attila, so tell more about your family and dh's...you give so much support and don't seem to open yourself up to get some back...

Hi Smithfield,

Both you and Ally are very perceptive re my DH's family (MIL does have an overt need to be in charge and in that house she does wear the trousers). FIL is the bystander.

I presume its because they are at heart an unhealthy and dysfunctional family. The only one "normal" in that family unit is my DH who separated himself from them as soon as was humanely possible. I realised that they were like this years ago though having unsupportive parents myself.

My best wishes to you and your children.

yours with towel

Attila x

Hello Ally,

Oh you are so nice to me honestly!.

DH and I were discussing his family last night and he basically agrees with me re his family. He still has a blind spot re his Mum though - she can do no wrong in his eyes and he wants her to come here this weekend as its her birthday. Fair enough as the other two aren't coming. I would not want toxic BIL in this house anyway. This woman though is all nice on the surface but dig deeper and you will find someone with an overwhelming desire to control and be in charge of everyone. Her eldest sister by a decade (whom I get on very well with) knows what her sister is like and agrees with my assessment of her.

There is an unhealthy triangle in that house between MIL, FIL and BIL. You can cut the atmosphere with a knife. In an argument though MIL would back BIL. MIL is afraid of BIL and tiptoes around him trying to be ingratiating. I remember seeing her once trying to ingratiate herself with BIl, I was watching her and I thought, "back off woman, you can see he's getting annoyed". However, she kept on and of course he eventually snapped. FIL has been pushed out by her and is often out. BIL is now a middle aged fantasist, in debt (FIL freely told me that), has had a series of low paid menial work (he has no qualifications) and an overseas based girlfriend. Again with him image and name dropping is all important, he bigs himself up and has an opinion about everything and knows everybody. In Yorkshire parlance he would be described as a "know all" (knows everything and knows nothing). If it were up to BIL he would move in with his overseas g/f and not give anyone or anything here a backward glance.

I think his parents are primarily to blame for BIL being as he is - BIL has a Massive sense of entitlement and MIL in particular has been far too lenient with him. He treats his parents with utter contempt and his toxic behaviour continues - he's still not talking to MIL (the reason this happened in the first place is because she gave him a phone message at the wrong time apparantly).

I will never forget one of their wedding anniversary celebrations - FIL put his arm around her when cutting the cake and she visibly flinched. I felt embarrassed for them frankly; fortunately as DS was still a baby we were able to leave early.

I often think that they would make a good case study for Raj Persaud!.

Thoughts as always are much appreciated.

How you know why I don;t talk about them very often. My lousy lot are tame by comparison but there are similarities there too (the mum keeping the son still dependent). I was seen as the "good" and non problematic one in my family and thus trusted to get on with it.

Both sets of rellies have taught me much though - how not to act like them!!.

Attila x

Just noticed that you give advice and support but don't ask for it.

Thoughts...you sum up the situation very well. And you cannot move any further without your dh acknowledging his mother is toxic.

Now what about your family? How would you sum up lousy? In what way? What is the impact on you at the moment? And I don't expect you to answer those questions on here... only if you feel that way inclined

Allyxx

Attilla- And you cannot move any further without your dh acknowledging his mother is toxic.

And this is the tricky bit beacause your MIL sounds a lot like mine.

'This woman though is all nice on the surface but dig deeper and you will find someone with an overwhelming desire to control and be in charge of everyone.'

It often is around men as well with this type of control. Its easier I think to make a man dependant on you.
A friend once said to me...and this is so true...that she never trusted someone who never 'bared their teeth'...this is my MIL and sounds like yours.

Except, on occassion they do slip and if you have backgrounds like us (where you are trained to read and fit in with parents moods) you tend to be more apt at seeing this.

Hi Ally,

Re your comments that I have placed in quyote marks:-
"I just noticed that you give advice and support but don't ask for it"

Aw thanks Ally. I learnt to deal with this shower a long time ago so they cannot hurt me as much emotionally any more.

"Thoughts...you sum up the situation very well. And you cannot move any further without your dh acknowledging his mother is toxic".

I think you are correct. Whether my darling salt of the earth DH,(the man who worships the quicksand I have walked on!) will ever acknowledge that his mother is toxic is a matter for conjecture. My guess though is that he will not. It is only recently that he has become less reticent re talking about them mainly because I talk about BIL.

BTW BIL wrote an e-mail to his brother (my DH) last year threatening legal action if he was not removed from the family tree!!!. That was also copied to the MIL. Understandly relations between my DH and his brother have somewhat cooled since that time.

"Now what about your family? How would you sum up lousy? In what way? What is the impact on you at the moment? And I don't expect you to answer those questions on here... only if you feel that way inclined"

Don't mind, it may help someone else. Well they're not very supportive really and they are far more obliging to my brother (but then again they're all needy and I come across as independent). I started work full time at 18 so became independent then. I never knew there was so many steps I'd have to learn on my own. They ever have been very "grandparent oriented" and always funnily enough timed their holidays to start and finish on a Thursday (which is usually the day I used to take DS over). They are very set in their ways. I use Sitters now when we go out; find them far more reliable and got fed up with parents making an excuse to say no. It used to hurt a lot and I would say their lack of interest still grates but I have learnt to deal with it. You would not be surprised to hear that my DH does not like them very much. When my Mum used to state (I don't ask any more) that she was too "busy" to attend the school play (DS was one of the angels in the reception Christmas play) that hurt me. Knew it was not the case at all but seemingly everyone else on such occasions had their parents with them. My main mode of communication with them is by phone, I phone them once or twice a week, sometimes less.

I remember a few years back being in LA on holiday with DH and DS and I thought I feel less lonely here than back at home. I've moved on from that time.

I have written about my parents on this site and another and have had responses to the effect that I am by far from alone. All that has too helped. I have some good and supportive friends at school and that also helps along with doing something for me i.e a college course.

With best wishes

Attila x

Attilla- And you cannot move any further without your dh acknowledging his mother is toxic.

And this is the tricky bit beacause your MIL sounds a lot like mine.

'This woman though is all nice on the surface but dig deeper and you will find someone with an overwhelming desire to control and be in charge of everyone.'

It often is around men as well with this type of control. Its easier I think to make a man dependant on you.
A friend once said to me...and this is so true...that she never trusted someone who never 'bared their teeth'...this is my MIL and sounds like yours.

Except, on occassion they do slip and if you have backgrounds like us (where you are trained to read and fit in with parents moods) you tend to be more apt at seeing this.

Hi Smithfield

You are oh so right!!!

attila- It used to hurt a lot and I would say their lack of interest still grates

Sounds like we have two sets of toxics in common now.

When We first arrived back from oz, we were in a bit of a state financially

I did a bit of cleaning to bring some cash in (only a few hours a week), I began bringing ds with me in the end cos I couldnt face listening to the sound of mums diary pages turning every time I asked if she'd have him for those one or two hours a week. .

No wonder you are fiercly independant Atilla. I think this becomes like a suit of armour we wear. Cant ever ask for help cos its too damn painful.

However my parents are like this with all of us, do you have any thoughts as to why they are like this with you but not your brother?

Hi Smithfield

I can only assume it is because I am not as emotionally needy like my brother and my parents are. These people feed off each other and my Mum loves to be needed. I think there is a depressive element to her actions; I am certain she was in a depressive state a few years ago. I am the good one who was trusted and thus left (certainly left) to get on with it.

They say that an eavesdropper never hears anything good about themselves and that is certainly true in my case. I remember in the days before I left the UK to get married (did not want a fuss apart from anything else) I stayed at my parents house for a couple of nights as my now DH was on his stag weekend. I was in their living room and went out into the kitchen to get a drink. I stopped short because I could hear my Mum talking about me. I could not believe what I heard. She was saying to my Dad that she thought I was going to end up getting divorced. Nice huh - NOT!!. DH rang me that night and knew that something was amiss but I could not tell him straight away, I told him later on when I was out of my parents house. He was not best pleased and was all set to talk to my Mum till I pleaded with him not to on the grounds she was not worth it.

I can ask for help and do but not always and or necessarily from them. I find others to ask. Speaking to my female friends I find that many of them have difficult inlaws and or parents to deal with. So I am not alone at all.

Yours with the fluffy hot towels

Attila x

p.s We celebrate our 13th wedding anniversary next month!!.

Thank you to those who have posted reassuring words. My broadband has been down for a couple of days so I haven't been able to get back on MN.

Saw therapist today and it feels like such a relief every time I tell him more details and he really makes me feel like he has listened and understood and taken me seriously and not belittled what I have said. I know that is what they are trained to do and that I pay him but I feel so grateful. I would really recommend it just for how good it feels to be listened to properly if you can get a good one you feel ok with.

He tells me what he thinks is and isn't normal but I still find it difficult to know what to think unless I hear it from 'real' people in the real world who I am not paying to make me feel better (which is partly why I think I will find MN useful). He says I have never learned properly about boundaries and where they should be because my family were rubbish role models. I think a couple of you have talked about boundaries in your posts. So does anyone have any more useful thoughts about boundaries?

HI ActingNOrmal,
YEs, I had to learn about "boundaries." AT first I thought that talk about boundaries was new-fangled AMerican drivvel, but then I realised that they are essential to leading a normal life.
Basically a boundary is like a fence that you put up around yourself while you carry on living your life. It sounds a bit lonely, but its not- its a very strong way to live. Since putting up boundaries around myself I have felt less lonely because I have been more self-sufficient and I have learned how to depend on myself and be creative and not depend on other people to make me happy.

So what you do is you ask yourself what kind of behaviour is okay for you to put up with from others, then you ask yourself what kind of behaviour isn't. It doesn't matter what other people think about your boundaries, because they are an expression of your individuality. In the past some people went to live as hermits in caves because they couldn'T be bothered with the pettiness of society. Fine. UP to them. Who are we to criticise how others live, as long as they aren't actively trying to hurt someone?

You know when someone has crossed over your boundaries into your private world because it feels immediately uncomfortable, like somethings not right. It could be that someone has said "Oh, don't take this the wrong way but..."- then proceed to tell you something nasty about yourself. You can tell that person, "TO be honest, I didn't ask for your advice so I'd appreciate it if you kept it to yourself"
I had to draw boundaries with my MIL. SHe turned up at DD's BIRTH! and grabbed her and ran off with her without asking, while I was still lying there with my legs open . Then she kept turning up at my flat uninvited to "help". I thought I was going mad. So what I did was cut off total contact from her for about 5 months to assess what was going on. I knew she made me feel so angry so I worked out what she was doing to make me feel like that. She is toxic, but I couldn't change her, so I changed her role in my life. I stopped her coming round whenever she felt like it. In fact, she's not welcome to come to my place anymore, because I feel its my own private space. SO DH takes DD to visit her about 2-3 Sundays a month, and I stay at home to relax- read, write or excercise.
You are not being cruel or selfish to make boundaries. I struggled with whether I was being selfish, but actually it was loving DD that finally gave me the strength to stop being a doormat and to stand up for myself. I was becoming depressed because people were walking all over me ,but since drawing my boundaries I have become so much happier and DD picks up on this, I think.
Oh, another one I had to learn was to say no if people want something or ask for something. I was trained since childhood that I was only a "good" person if I gave up my time and needs for others. But this is martydom, and its not a good thing. So now if its not convenient for me, I say no to petty favours that put me out. (I still help people in need- like last week I looked after my friend'S sick child for two days while she went to college, but the litmus test about whether to do it is whether you feel obliged to. I didn't, and the friend I helped is lovely, hated asking, and has already offered to take DD off my hands one Saturday)

Purpleone, you must have had amazing strength to get through your childhood...whenever I read your posts I wonder that you are not lost totally to depression and worse. Just think what you can teach your children, if you can have the strength of character to get through your childhood/teenage years and still be sane, and the fact you have the insight and strength to post on here, to recognise the abuse for what it was. Can I recommend a book...Beverley Engle 'emotional healing'...I think it may give you some help. [hugs]]

Thanks ally90.
When I was growing up, I never realised it was 'them'. Saw countless psychiatrists and always thought there was something wrong with me.
I'm 35 years old now, am a chronic depressive and a functioning alcoholic. Often feel I'm no better than them sometimes.

I will be buying that book though, I think it will help. Some days I feel I have no strength left to fight on anymore. Especially when my cousin emails me (never met him in RL) and tells me what my folks have been up to.
My sore point is that I have no family left now, and he keeps telling me about this grand family reunion that my parents are arranging..and encouraging me to go. Which I don't want to do...but I do feel jealous? Having a hard time getting my head around how I'm feeling right now.

Hope everybody else is doing fine.

Much love x x

Pages- meant to say thankyou for the tip off on those two books.

I have ordered them today.

I've been reading up a bit more on the internet about shame and I am more convinced than ever that this is the route of my own dysfunctioning, or should I say 'behaviours' that are limiting me and causing issues for my family and myself.

I really think focussing on reading and understanding this some more will help me in a constructive way.

I think the episode with MIL the other day was once again also interlinked with my feelings of shame. As in ds having a tantrum and not wanting to leave or look at me and all 'in front of' mil brought the shame to the surface...and so...came the anger.

Acting normal- There is a link also with shame and boundaries because to avoid feelings of shame we have many strategies and one apparently is 'people pleasing'.
So invariably we say yes to people to avoid uncomfortable feelings. Dont know if that helps but might be worth thinking about how you feel when someone asks something of you and allow yourself to sit with the discomfort. learn and feel how you react?
I struggle with boundaries myself but it does get easier but you have to practice IYSWIM.
So maybe explore these feelings and reactions with people other than your immediate family initially, that we are not 'emotionally' attached/invested in Eg Bonkers MIL's

Sorry for posting on here, not sure where to post this. As some of you know I have a kind of mixed up family background, I have today had one of the most scarey days of my life,
after an argument with DH over hungry hippos game he was having with DS1&2 I realised the only thing I could do was leave.
I went to my bedroom to get dressed and realised that I couldn't just flounce out as I have put on so much weight that my clothing choice for running away was seriously restricted. Screaming and crying for Dh to stop touching me (he was being kind not cruel) I made it out of the house to the car, drove to the other end of the village and parked in a carpark.
I managed to convince myself that there was no place for me in our family and if I couldn't be with them I didn't want to live. I sent Dh a text explaining that I loved him and the kids but it would be better for everyone if I wasn't on this earth anymore.. He didn't reply, thus convincing me further that he agreed and it was indeed a good idea.
I was in the car crying for about an hour when the caretaker from the place where I had parked came out to ask if I was ok. I lied and said I would be fine.
I texted Dh again, desperate for him to tell me he wanted me home, but again he didn't respond. So I decided I was going to drive to our closes Motorway take my seatbelt off and drive into one of the bridges at high speed.
When I tried to start the car, the battery had gone dead from me sitting with the aircon on for an hour.
I tried to call DH to talk things through but when he answered my phone went dead.
tail between my legs I walked home and started talking about how lonely I feel and how fucked up things are at the moment.
We were doing really well until tonight, DS1 had a paddy and told me to go away and never ever ever ever ever come back again.
This set me off again, calmly and rationally talking to Dh about the fact that they would all be better off without me here.
So it is now 10pm, I have been round in circles with Dh, I am feeling a bit brighter but the feelings I have are still there and quite strong. I am not going to do anything silly, I am just wondering if anyone can help, I know that addicts have a 12 stage programme, is there a similar thing to help with depression/not wanting to be here anymore.
Dh and I have written down separately things that we want to change and how to achieve it but that isn't stopping the crap that is going on in my head.
Not totally related to my Mother at the moment but you have all been so kind when I have posted before.

Had to respond JingleyJen - it sounds like a horrendous evening and a cry for help.

There are lots of ways that you can help yourself - I think that the first thing is to ask for help, to tell DH and any good friends and take it from there.

Phone the Samaritans, Go to the doctors, go to a therapist etc... Your depression is most likely linked to your childhood issues and when you can confront them you can confront your depression.

The legacy of my childhood was a huge amount of self hate, that just ate me up at every turn. All my life I had this underlying gnawing depression which never let me live my life.

I am in the process of recovery from self hate and depression - how?

I had the crisis - an unexpected pregnancy and knowing that I wasn't in the right emotional place to have another baby. Now I know that I wanted that baby but terminated the pregnancy.
First I read the books - toxic parents
Second I did this www.hoffmaninstitute.co.uk/
And recently I went to a kiniesologist/nutrionist and got some food supplements - after all these years I suddenly have levels of energy that I didn't know were possible.

I would say that as I write this I am calm and centered, I don't lose my temper with the kids, I don't expect DH to do things but appreciate it if he does, I am spending time making my home a nicer place to be in, I am looking after myself.....

When I killed my baby, I vowed that I would not let it eat me up with self loathing but would take it as a call to arms to sort myself out. And I hope that I have done so.

Maybe this is your crisis, your wake up call?
You teetered on the brink of a lonely, dark place tonight - but you can choose to confront it.

Good luck and big hugs