"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Hi everyone

I have only had a very brief skim through the last couple of pages, but something Smithfield said about perfection and Sakura said about the internal critic made me think you might be interested in one or two of the books on shame that I have just read, which were very illuminating about this subject.

The first one was called "Shame and Guilt, Masters of Disguise" by Jane Middleton-Moz and the second "Healing the Shame that Binds you" by John Bradshaw (quite a well-known book, a bit more heavy going than the first). I have really gained a lot of understanding about my drive to overachieve (and the crushing pain of not being "the best" which I am now discovering to be the case at work now that I have two dc and can't put in the extra hours that the younger/single people/men do). Both books really illumnated for me how I was only "loved" when pleasing my mother (ie being clever). The books say that we either become "more than human" (superacheievers/perfectionsists) or "less than human" (drop outs/rebels/underachievers) because we were never loved for ourselves, ie just humans with all our imperfections and weaknesses.

Hi Littlewoman, again, haven't read much of the thread yet but if you are talking about "Toxic Parents", Dr Forward says that you don't have to forgive your parents and in fact that trying to do so can be detrimental, as the act of forgiving is tantamount to saying that what they did was okay, when it clearly wasn't and therefore in forgiving them then you risk absorbing the guilt and turning it on yourself, which in toxic families is what happens to teh abused child naturally anyway.

So in fact we need to actively NOT forgive in order to allow ourselves to be righteously angry and defend ourselves from further toxic poison. Haven't read the book for a while so I think that's a loose interpretation!

Thank you Pages.That is so enlightening, because I kept feeling guilty and inhuman because I couldn't forgive. I always thought having to forgive was 'anti-victim', so to speak, so I'm glad that its okay not to. I'm not a freak after all

No you are not a freak, Little woman, you sound remarkably human!! It was enlightening for me too, actually. I spent a lot of energy a few years back on trying to forgive my best friend for encouraging me to split with my then partner of 4+ years and then getting together with him (before I'd even moved out, plus she was pg within a few months) - I wish I'd known then that not forgiving is actually okay. I am sure that it took me far longer to get over than it would have done if I'd allowed myself to just be angry with her. I definitely turned the guilt inwards and felt something along the lines of "if they (i.e her and ex-partner) haven't done anything wrong then I must be the awful person to be bothered by it". Very much the same thing I've always done with my family.

Hi all

Quick catch up...

Hi Sasquatch glad you got here!

I was guessing at the PD's your mother may have...look them up here you will have a better idea once you read the discriptions of them...there are about 6 I think. And anyone can have one or more PD's. My mother is borderline/narcarsistic. My sister purely narsarsistic (can never spell that word!). It just helps put a label on their behaviour and enables you to possibly deal with it better. You may also be interested to ask your mother about her childhood if you get into conversation with her (again!) you can find out an awful lot from that...does not make what they have done/are doing okay, but it helps you understand them and their behaviour better. And when you are ready you can tell us some more about your childhood or more present issues

Hi Littlewoman, welcome to the thread I think Pages got it spot on with the forgiveness. My sister recently sent a letter saying she was ready to forgive and forget...my response (to myself!) was 'why?' I felt it was unhealthy for her to do this...there are some things in life that you cannot and should not forgive or forget. Abuse is one of them. But you can try to get the other person to understand why you are upset...unfortunately this is quite an achievement with toxic parents/family...Anyway when you are ready perhaps post more about your childhood? Up to you

Danae your dad said he would not miss you if you died does he know what the word 'love' means?

Smithfield...re your mother dragging you down to london at 3/4 yrs to get back your dad...that is just terrible...I'm just so shocked a mother would do that...and your dad beating you and your mother not rescuing you...I got a lump in my throat reading that...you poor love...

Purpleone, you must have had amazing strength to get through your childhood...whenever I read your posts I wonder that you are not lost totally to depression and worse. Just think what you can teach your children, if you can have the strength of character to get through your childhood/teenage years and still be sane, and the fact you have the insight and strength to post on here, to recognise the abuse for what it was. Can I recommend a book...Beverley Engle 'emotional healing'...I think it may give you some help. [hugs]]

Matildax - good luck! I hope your therapy goes well for you. xxx

TMSB - glad you are getting happiness and joy from your baby xx I understand about the need to fill the gaps in your life with creating...thing is...like your basement designs...I never get round to it! Better get some more open university course done as we speak...

To all on thread (and mostly Pages )

Tell me if you think this is a good idea or not...so yea or nay...Pages gets the final say as the grand dame of the thread

I am considering (if there is enough interest) setting up in the Parenting section an ongoing support thread (linked to this one) which has the main focus of us parenting of our children. Something we can pop onto when we have had a good or bad day parenting, feel we are going badly wrong, need support to break a vicious cycle etc. It would hopefully be a safe place like this thread is and we would all know each others background already so there would be mimimum slating of our 'bad parenting' and just lots of understanding and support to change things.

Does that make sense? Will this split things up too much or confuse things for people?...

All thoughts welcome

Personally (and feel free to ignore me as I'm such a lurker) I think we should keep things as they are. Its easier I think to keep everything in one place.

Think its a great idea ally...but then currently I'll probably be the main poster

Can see Mikafan's point as well though

I love lurkers I'm so curious to know who is lurking...!

Yes I was wondering about all in one place...but I think the advantage of another thread in parenting is its focus is on our relationship with our children, not on our relationship with our parents.

I'll join you on there smithfield! We're doing throwing, hitting and kicking this week

Bump

I want to post on here but I feel really scared. I'm scared that people will think I am stupid and that what happened to me isn't as bad as what happened to some of you so I shouldn't be on here. I'm scared of talking about what happened to me because although I want to, I feel like I am doing something wrong.

It is right what somebody said about if it was ingrained in you from an early age that you shouldn't talk about these things and you were made to feel bad about saying it then, you feel scared about talking about it now. I've recently been brave enough to tell my therapist some of the details and then my husband but it has made me feel panicky that I have told them, I don't know what my muddled brain thinks is going to happen. I was shocked by their reactions and how seriously they took it, because that means I also have to accept that it was serious but also relieved that someone was listening and I wasn't being dismissed like when I tried to tell my Mum as a child. She didn't want me to cause a scene and both my parents would rather keep up a respectable image of a family where nothing was wrong and nothing bad happened than face any issues. Again, some of you have said a similar thing.

It is really reassuring to read people saying similar things to my experiences. I suppose it's all about feeling validated. I have also been thinking about whether I should or shouldn't forgive, whether I should tell my family the details of what happened (knowing they could get angry or just deny anything happened), whether I want contact with them or not and whether it would be right or wrong to break contact. My therapist suggested I went to a support group but there is no way I could say things in front of a load of people. Saying things on MN under a different name seems like it could be a way round it. It's not that I think my stuff is really really bad, more that I find it incredibly embarrassing.

I do feel I need to face up to it though as it is affecting how I treat DD (5). Since she reached a certain age she seems to trigger memories of my childhood and anger out of all proportion to what she is actually doing. I don't seem to have the same problem with DS (3). I thought I was being stupid but other people on here have said one or both of their DCs have triggered their repressed feelings as well.

hello acting normal, i posted on here a while ago now, and have decided i need to sort this stuff out myself with the help of my therapist, and i also said i wasnt going to post for a while, but i just had to reply to you, you sound so like i did when i first posted, and i understand totally the panic like feeling,and most definitely the problems relating to your daughter, (i have a 5 yr old daughter also) and although things are a lot better now, (again thanks to this thread) i couldnt quite understand why i behaved in that way around her. i also have a older daughter who is now 19, and i remember when she was around 5-7, going through a stage of being very distant with her. we are fine now by the way. (well as fine as mums and teenage daughters can be!! )
I have a son age 15 months, and although i know he is still young, and not really able to make me cross, my relationship with him is so so different that dd2
so reading your p[ost sort of mirrors how i first felt. i also understand the embarrassment 100%.
this is a great place to get advice, and feel you have somewhere safe and annonymous (sp) to post,
inow feel i have the courage to restart therapy, and have my first appt in may (i have seen him before, but if i am honest i dont think i was ready to admit to anything, so the sessions were not really beneficial), i now feel 100% stronger and ready to face my past and learn to move on to my future with my head held high, and i really do think that this thread has given me the courage to do so.
if i can be of any help on a personal level, please let me know, cos it seems to me that we are both ready to confront our childhood.
if not the ladies on here are really wonderful, and im sure i will come back here again once i have started therapy again.
i hope this has helped you, and i send you lots of love, you have taken the first step, and that is normally the hardest to do
xx

Hi Actingnormal - a lurker these days, though this thread gave me the strength to acknowledge my childhood issue.

Since I started posting I got validation, just talking about it made me feel that it wasn't right and I did have things to be rightly upset about. From then I went on to "deal" with my issues and I am a much stronger and happier person since I did.

What really helped me was to read some books - toxic parents is a good starter. I used that as a starter and then browsed Amazon till I found some books that seemed relevant. Such as "If you had controlling parents" which was my parents to a tee. They again are great for validation.

When you are ready, you will find great support and understanding from these supportive and compassionate ladies.

From your post I assume that your story involves sexual abuse, not an area that I have any experience in. I would imagine that the major feelings must be ones of shame and guilt. As your head no doubt says you are not shameful, you are not guilty - but maybe your gut still says that you are.

It's painful but from confronting the pain your freedom lies. Forget about your family, this is about you and how you feel about yourself. Your family no doubt live with their own guilt.

Hi Actingnormal - a lurker these days, though this thread gave me the strength to acknowledge my childhood issue.

Since I started posting I got validation, just talking about it made me feel that it wasn't right and I did have things to be rightly upset about. From then I went on to "deal" with my issues and I am a much stronger and happier person since I did.

What really helped me was to read some books - toxic parents is a good starter. I used that as a starter and then browsed Amazon till I found some books that seemed relevant. Such as "If you had controlling parents" which was my parents to a tee. They again are great for validation.

When you are ready, you will find great support and understanding from these supportive and compassionate ladies.

From your post I assume that your story involves sexual abuse, not an area that I have any experience in. I would imagine that the major feelings must be ones of shame and guilt. As your head no doubt says you are not shameful, you are not guilty - but maybe your gut still says that you are.

It's painful but from confronting the pain your freedom lies. Forget about your family, this is about you and how you feel about yourself. Your family no doubt live with their own guilt.

Hi Ally, sorry, only just got on again. I am totally happy with whatever way this thread goes, I really don't feel at all as if it's "my" thread anymore, more of a "therapy group" (and I am just pleased so many people are getting comfort from it).

Hi Pages I'll go ahead then unless there is anymore comments? Or just wait a week and see if there are any...I'll do that. If it starts to confuse things I'll knock it on the head...[harsh emotion]...

Hi Actingnormal

Post whatever you want...we won't dismiss what you have to say. I was endlessly told by my parents how lucky I was so then anything I felt seemed irrelivant, self pitying and indulgent. Or I was laughed at for sharing my feelings . So no, you won't get invalidated on this thread

And I've had contact, card for dd's bday, and today I've had a postcard for her (hello! she cannot read!...have they forgotten what 2 yr olds are like?) Naturally its more emotional blackmail {we're on holiday in xxxxxxxxx (why do I need to know that?) hope you had a nice birthday love granny and grandad)...oh and my father signed the card (dh opened it to check...). Now if only they had spent as much time now writing to dd as they could have spent with me, listening to me as a child...but no...so many things are far more important than a needy child...

Oops...did the bitterness spill out then...gits. They've spent all their lives trying to ensure they act like children so I will pity them and look after them. So they can get stuffed, I have feelings too and if they can spend 30 years ignoring them...then be surprised and upset when I don't want them in contact with me...gits. Feel a bit better now. Now must not mention to therapist...else I'll get 'its such a sad situation............. I'm pretty sure now he is influenced by his reaction to his parents...he told me a bit about his past and it all fits in. I just want a therapist who understands and does not put pressure on me to change my mind.

Sorry...bit of a ramble there...just needed to get it off my chest

In lieu of starting the new thread, I will have to use this one for now as I have just had one of the worst episodes I have ever had with ds.

Picked him up from 'dreaded' nannas house, had called ahead to say I was coming...and when I got there he was lying face down saying he didnt want to go home, and then
'I dont want to look at my mumma (he calls me mumma'). Goes to his nanna for a hug whilst saying this.

His cousin is there so I understand he wants to stay while she is still there. So I say I will go for a walk or wait. I can see he is overtired but I still feel this terrible hurt over his behaviour (he is only 3 FGs!). I also cant help but wonder if he has been wound up in some way by nanna since my phonecall telling her I was on my way?? Maybe not but still.

His cousins mum, my sil turns up, and nanna preceeds to go to the kitchen and make porridge for cousin, so ds now wants porridge. nanna of course makes a big deal of you have to ask mummy. I of course say no 'its 3 oclock' and I have terrible issues already with ds' diet and eating, and I want him to eat tea.

So of course he is crying to his nanna...she kissing him, 'so the oh you poor mite... there there aproach' and then I hear his cousin saying I have porridge cos I have a nice mummy.

By this stage ds is reaching climax of tantrum, so I say right we will go home now.

Of course no back up for me from 'NORMALLY' cant do enough for you nanna. Im left to lift bags and dd back into the car, whilst she is inside 'STILL' cajoling ds.

I wait by the door while the cajoling is going on saying come on smithfields son we have to go your sister is in the car it is hot.

The cajoling continues...so I lift ds and remove him to the car and he is now screaming. So mission accomplished for nanna to have set me up as bad mummy again.

I feel fucking awful I screamed at ds in the car 'how dare you behave like that!' I have never screamed at him like this before.
He is now in his room.

To top it off I had bought him a sticker book y'day. Got to nannas and she had bought HUGE sticker book.

I am so fed up with this woman, currently feel incredible rage but feel powerless. DH will never say anything to her and I know if he did she would slag me off to his bil and sil. HAve had this all before, with bil and sil refusing to speak to me or dh for six months.

MIL was visibly upset by me it seems and I think it was more to do with the fact I wouldnt commit to some dinner she wants us all to go to on sunday. She's determined to get sundays it seems one way or the other.

I just feel so upset by this I just feel like I dont want ds anywhere near her when I am so obviously undermined by her.

Message withdrawn

D'you think she's toxic?

You poor love...what a going on.

My thoughts - MIL bang out of order. You back up the parents! Because they are the parents! You sing from the same songsheet or, I'm afraid, visits (like ours to my mil, dh knows she's mad as a badger) are supervised so that you can impose your rules on your child in that situation.

Your dh needs a wake up call.

And your bil and sil stop speaking for months at a time to you? Toxic toxic toxic

Remember, like attracts like. Has your dh read TP yet?

It does sound like your mil could be undermining you. From the way she speaks in front of you 'oh the poor little mite!'...the bigger sticker book...

Anyway...back to the main issue, your ds. I think you need to speak to dh about mil, constructively. Decide what to do. I don't think she is helping the situation between you and ds...as to what to say to him... my only thought is speak to him about it when all is calm. Ask why he didn't want to see your face

I really feel for you, I fear this will be me come next year... just know that you are not a bad person...your okay, you care, you are too hard on yourself much of the time due to your issues. And you have a new baby still. Its alot for anyone to cope with.

I want you to speak to your ds knowing you are okay as a person. Your a good enough mother. Who shouts when all her buttons are pushed at once... only human. And you can apologise unlike our mothers and acknowledge feelings and needs. Perhaps a good cry would help too? If you get five minutes alone...

hugs to you xxx

Podmog...can you have more than one session a week? Or should that be 'afford'! They don't come cheap...

I remember not being too happy having holidays and not seeing therapist.

I think the worst thing is having everything swimming round in your head keeping you awake at night. Doing a journal is good. Do you have rants in it? Just write until you can write no more? Then re read and see if you can pick out what is really bothering you?

Once I started therapy I didn't know how to be with my mother...trying to have a normal relationship was near nigh impossible due to her childishness. And I had to change the way I was too which felt very obvious.

Are you able to withdraw from your mother? Does she live close by? Do you usually have regular contact?

Podmog- 'what do you do with all the dreadful feelings in between appointments?'

I dont know- I am struggling with this myself...and I know what you mean about feelings of disloyalty....It seems talking about my father for the first time has uleashed this in me too.

Ally- I had the talk with ds...makes me so as you realise how young they really are. I said do you know why mummy was cross...he said cos I wanted my stickers?

So this is the bit where I wonder if my anger is justified. Maybe mIl and sil thought the cajoling would help to calm him. But I dont really believe in rewarding bad behaviour (had asked him more than several times to come with me to the car)...Ignoring it yes, but not rewarding.

So is it my insecurity as a person/mother getting in the way again.

Also ally...why do you say this will be you next year?? Is it the age thing you are worried about or something happening currently? Help me to feel a bit less self absorbed pleeeeese! and thankyou for such a quick reponse....feels like an sos call lately.

its not you its not you its not you....!!!

bless him...

I'm planning to concieve soonish so by this time next year I could have a new baby and a 3 yr old too age gap worrying me slightly due to just over? terrible twos...coping with two children instead of one...and my dd this morning smiled with delight when she saw her mad as a badger gm (mil) you really do hope they see through them...i just feel overwhelmed and 'is it me?' very easily...never mind one day at a time...one minutet at a time!

And your not self absorbed! You split from your mother, your in therapy, you have a new baby and your mother of a 3 yr old and now you seem to have a undermining mil...do you need much more on your plate?