"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Hi,
I have so little time these days to reply properly, and I suspect that is because I`m at a different stage in the process now. I remember when my life revolved around this thread, and the first thing I did in the morning was post. But a thread like this is the victim of its own success- as people heal and move on, they need it less.

I wanted to comment on something that was said below about dividing up your parents into good and bad because it was so unbearable to believe that both were bad. I did this- my mother was the evil one(and she is by the way) and my father was the better of the two (in my mind). I fantasized about living with my father if the two of them divorced.
But Ive since come to realisation upon realisation: my father was incredibly abusive towards my mother- a misogynist, really. But at the same time, he was scared of her (if that makes sense). He was probably frightened of losing us kids, but I think its more likely that <span class="italic">he</span> was abused by his parents and was re-enacting that abusive scenario with my mother IYSWIM. He was also abusive towards us, but in my childs mind it was too frightening to contemplate the consequences of this, so I denied the reality and placed my mother in the position of evil witch and my father as a knight.

But the truth regarding my father is that he looks out for himself, and himself alone. All his actions are incredibly selfish, and everything he does is based on how it will affect him. I have never known him to do the right thing. If he can get away with scam, hed scam (sell a crappy car or something). He is totally lacking in conscience, so Id class him as a typical narcissist. But paradoxically, he knows how other people tick quite well, so its very very easy to feel sorry for him. I still feel sorry for him, and he taps into peoples sense of guilt and conscience very effectively. When I stayed with him at home for a week last month and there was a slight possibility that my mother would turn up. I asked my dad whether he would protect me from her if she did (she is violent). He gave no answer for a while, then told me I could hide in the back room if she came. I said, "NO, DAd, If she comes, would you <span class="italic">defend</span> my right to be left alone? Would you stand up for me? Or would you let her in to rant at me and DD, and possibly hurt us? He couldnT give me the answer I wanted so I left the house for a few hours untill my mother had come and gone (collecting my brother).
Then I came to fully understand his role in my abuse. He wasnT a passive bystander- When someone stands back and <span class="italic">allows</span> their children to be treated absusively by someone, its <span class="italic">exactly</span> the same as if they were commiting the act themselves. My fathers trump card in my abuse is that he didnT know (he did, and was actually abusive himself), and secondly, that he wasnt the one to commit the worst of the abuse.
But I told him that he had, because its the same thing to allow it, as it is to commit it.
So this has been a third realisation for me (my mother, then my MIL, now my father, and I suspect in the future it will be my grandparents and siblings, and of course I will constantly have to analyze my own toxic reactions towards DD and DH)

Another thing I wanted to mention was the person who said her mother was okay with kids until they reached the age of 7 or so. I`m terrified that this is me. I just feel that I might not be strong enough to admit the faults in my own behaviour- like Danae said of her mother- to let the chinks of light in. The need to actively concentrate on controlling my anger with DD and DH is over- I have successfully overcome that part of my recovery, but I still worry about the rocky road ahead.

I am confident I am not like him (or her) though because I remember jumping in front of my mother before she was about to batter one of my little brothers, intending to take the brunt of her wrath myself. SO I was always confused as a child I suppose, and even more so now as an adult that if a terrified child could stand up to her to defend a sibling, why couldnT a grown man stand up to her to defend his own child? There is something missing there in my fathers mind, I believe- the chunk of the brain connected to humanity and empathy.

Danae, I also wanted to make a comment about your statement that you donT believe your DD loves you because you feel inherently unloveable. I can guarantee she does love you. I know this because I still love my mother, and I <span class="italic">know</span> from what you have written that you are <span class="italic">nothing</span> like my mother. I love my mother, and crave her warmth and comfort and conversation, but I cant be around her for the sake of my sanity. I love her creativity and the little girl she once was before something must have happened to her to change her. The love your daughter feels towards you is limitless- I wish you could believe it.

To clarify- my mother offered me no warmth or comfort, but something about her- her voice, her smell makes me feel at home, even though she has done nothing but abuse me. THis is because she is my mother!
And this, I suppose, is my "f*ck you" to people who say that Ive done the wrong thing or a bad thing by cutting her out of my life. AS I said earlier, I say to those people "DO you think I donT want a mother?" "DO you think I donT wake up every day and wish I had been given a mother who wasnt an abuser? "DO you think that, with stakes this high, I haven`t thought through every little aspect of this decision?" Because I have, and even with all the doubts I have in my mind about this decision, I have to put DD and DH and myself before my mother in order for this abusive cycle to stop.

I think my Mum was a good enough parent until we were 6/7, and then she withdrew/ became critical and negative. This is where I am struggling now with my DC as they have reached that age. When DS1 age 8 challenges me when DH is away, I find it hard to react appropriately. Like you say Danae, I have no inner road map. DS is screaming out for me to set boundaries, but I have no reference from my own childhood to draw from. All that seems to happen is that waves of frustration and anger overcome me and a voice in my head repeats 'i can't do this. I don't know how' and I end up shouting 'just do as you're told'

Since discovering this thread I am trying to be very gentle with DS1, and listen carefully to what he's telling me. I think it's working, but he's now accusing me of caring about his siblings more than him. I think the fact he's expressing this is good though. At least he's not bottling it up like I have for 40 years.

hello everyone,
sakura, i feel like you do about my parents, and desperately want a mum /daughter relationship that many of my friends have. never going to happen though
have an appointment with psychologist next week, not sure how i feel about anything at the moment. if the truth be known, i would love to be anyone else but me at the moment.
I am glad i posted on here, but the multitude of emotions i am now feeling are quite literally strangling me.
i feel very quiet and withdrawn.
i think i am ready to return to therapy, i just hope i can see it through to the end, and not give up when it all gets really intense. i dunno, i just think i am having a rubbish day.
my love to you all xx

I've had a lot of therapy over the years, mostly to deal with awful eating problems and then severe depression. For a year I had a brilliant therapist until last summer. I really thought I was on the way out of some pretty horrible times and at last there was a glimmer of light.

No sooner had I finished the therapy was I diagnosed with breast cancer, and within a week of being out of hospital after a mastectomy I was back again with my first episode of colitis. My mum has alzeimers, which is starting to take its toll.

My family and dcs are living in a family house and frankly family round here are pretty peculiar, and seem to have no boundaries. It's a lot to bare. Dh is retiring this year....

I have been to the doc regarding councelling. I am also going to see someone at one of the cancer places, because the waiting list is less. I'm doing some art therapy as well, so I'm really trying to get some help. It all feels overwhelming. I also have a lump in my new boob.

It's tempting to knock back the wine (which I'm pretty good at!), but I'm still suffering after drinking a bottle and a half a couple of nights ago. The colitis doesn't like it, so I suffer far more badly than I used to!

big hug BlaDeBla. That is a lot to have to deal with.

I wish that I could snap my fingers and all your problems would go away (but mostly that lump in your breast).

Hope you manage to stay away from the wine. I'll let you have some of my son's birthday cake on Saturday if that will help .

oh shit its d day tomorrow, dad is giving me and dd a lift somewhere, it probably the only time i have had alone with him since dd was born, i certainly do not want to ask him about it when dd is old enough to understnd what we are talking about so its maybe now or never, as dad is always with mum.

i feel a bit out of order as dad is being nice and giving me and dd a lift, but im going to try and not turn it into a row or confrontation and simply say, that mums told me something about how you feeel about me, and is it true? and explain to him the reason i want to ask hin is because if i dont i will always wonder even after hes dead and i dont want to wait till his ill or really old or something so i honestly think it is now or never.
im going to pluck up all the courage i can and hope i dont chicken out.
i might well be o here tomoorw night in tears but at least then he can never say he never knew.

mimizan so glad your finding this thread so helpful, maybe we can follow are journeys together, i am also working my way though thus thread from the start !

Hi all--
I have felt muddled the past couple of days, but have rebounded-the nice weather helps, and walking. I am going to start back with a mild exercise routine.

I am silly tired about every third or forth day and the play back reels regarding toxic anything are starting to pop-up in my head again.
Ally-(and Smithfield) thanks for the FOG alert-that is it exactly. I used the word 'responsibility' for 'obligation' but responsibility is ... in terms of me; and obligation is in terms of the toxic one. My responsibility is to me first (me first-sounds so selfish and I hardly ever put me first--I'm lucky if I'm on the list at all! invisible) Another term from the toxic one to convey 'obligation' may be 'duty'...a la 'Family Duty'.

Also Ally, your comment about over riding the critical voice in our minds with encouragement and positive energy is important. I just read about kindness and compassion and- it is not just for us to be kind and compassionate to others to feel good, but be kind and compassionate directly to ourselves...what a concept. In other words: stop kicking ourselves. But it is more than that-being nice by omission-be nice by active intentional deliberate kindness to ourselves.

Danae-lol regarding stuffing comment about my Middle sister. Good visual!

Also- changing our perspective to where the toxic one wouldn't be a bother any more-that was a nice post too. That ties in with the kindness and compassion: like changing a bad habit with a good habit; change the bad perspective (like presuming the toxic one's freight train of emotional baggage is as our own) with a good (or at least better) perspective (that's their freight, not mine.

I had a couple of sessions with my son's therapist-yes my son (15) is in therapy for anxiety and it is probably because of me. I was imposing my view of things on him through the lens of my freight train with out letting him see things entirely from his perspective. So my lack of feelings thus anxiety about social circumstances caused him anxiety. This is tricky because of our role as parent/guardian/coach/teacher-of course we will have influence. I was quick to see the connection and accept the responsibility and admit the mistake. And the therapist was quick to point out it wasn't entirely my fault because that was how I was brought up by my ineffective parents.
Those realizations were very emotional for me and I can type here in relative calm now.

Mom vs. Dad:
Mom was mentally ill - manic depressive; untreated thyroid condition perhaps. I've described in earlier posts. My Dad was a typical father of that time-the bread winner, workaholic, left the parenting to the mom. I can say without a doubt that my emotional challenges were directly caused by mom's emotional unavailability due to her illness. But my dad was in serious denial about her illness (even though he did seek treatment for her when it was beyond obvious that she needed it), still he did not think to wonder what was lacking in the children's lives because of it.

Having my Oldest Sister here last month (baby help) was very nice. She was here 10 days and it seemed like 10 minutes. (10 minutes with Middles Sister would feel like 10 days!)
OS said when she was 18, Mom had a panic attack so bad she -OS- was the one to take her to the ER and get help for her. Finally at the psych ward, the head person took her aside and told her that Dad was oblivious to the seriousness and depth of the circumstances. (We think he had his own very serious psych issues from World War 2-and just couldn't wouldn't face it, or mom's.) A lot for an 18 year old-I was 14 and remember parts of it but was told so little I didn't really understand. I knew Mom was upset, didn't know why, and we were getting her help. That is all I knew.

OS also told me about her abortion at 19 when she had run away and came home pregnant. I thought Mom must have made her get one, but OS told me that there were genetic problems with the fetus and that is why she had to have one. (That was thirty years ago!) When I was having genetic testing done for my new baby, the neonatologist said he'd rather have a healthy 46 year old patient (me) than a drug addict alcoholic 23 year old any day. OS said she really was relieved to hear that and it gave her peace of mind that I would get through the pregnancy ok. I didn't know the real reason-she was one of the at risk younger pregnancies.

I let OS read my journal about Middle Sister, and told her about my support group here (let her read the first thread-I printed it out ). She was amazed at the ...well, your shocking stories first of all, but also at your strength and insight and ability to get through it and heal-the level of self-awareness that it takes is huge-she knows this. She blamed herself for years for mom's death because of her acting out and light drug use and running away and getting arrested a couple of times...OS thought all of that was stress that killed mom (heart attack in her sleep). But no-and I told OS that all that was peripheral circumstances to the core of mom's problem-it wasn't OS's fault at all. OS told me she had finally gotten some counseling to finally get through and beyond it. I bet that Middle Sister may hold a deep grudge against OS for it though.

Whew...I certainly did not intend to type so much or about that...but over riding the inner voice criticisms is an important key because sometimes the criticism is actually wrong.

I admit I have not been writing in my journal recently-baby busy-but I guess I need to still. Residuals.

Thanks.

TMSB - your OS sounds lovely.

My brother came to visit me earlier this week, his wife has said that she wants a divorce. They have been married for 10 years and have a daughter. We have never had a strong relationship but I feel for him, he is so confused not just about his wife but also about everything. He went to see a therapist and started weeping in the chair when she asked him about his childhood. I gently pointed him in the direction of "toxic parents" and "if you had controlling parents"

And as for the divorce, his wife has never really held down a job, has had mental issues for as long as I have known her and my brother has supported her emotionally and financially for 14 years. And her, thinks she sees divorce as a career option - as she will be taking half of something that she has had minimal/no role in creating. I am very angry on his behalf

Hello All,

I've not had the chance to come on MN since yesterday morning so haven't read all the recent posts, also busy this morning.

Lionbeast- Your suggestion about following eachother's journey is a great one
I wish you all the best in your meeting with your Dad today, whether or not you manage to broach the subject of his alleged behaviour or not. Remember you are brave and strong and you are right! Will catch you later

hi mimizan, hes gonna be here in about 10 mins. thanks for the good wishes

Good luck Lionbeast. Hope it goes well.

Good luck Lionbeast! And as I'm late with wishes...how did it go? I'm sure you have done the best you can

Sakura - (((((Hugs))))) I did not know you had confronted your dad or had that close escape from meeting your mum again, sorry if I missed it...at least you said something...even to get from your dad that he would not defend you and your dd...well done you. And yes...cutting people out just extends further and futher... don't know about my uncles...my sisters out of the frame...got one cousin I think I trust...ah well...got dh and dd...will build my 'new' family (ie friends) gradually...

TMSB - You don't really mention your mother and father...maybe you are reaching beyond your ms influence now she is out of contact? Nice to hear your sessions with ds's therapist...a parent that can acknowledge... if only our parents could do that...its a very healing thing to do...and shows ds how even parents can learn from their mistakes...afterall none of us are perfect (esp with our backgrounds!). Hope your okay with all this...I found things seemed worse when my dd was young...hormones had a way of hyping things up!

Maisemor...they are playing games with you again...allow yourself to be angry...then try to be objective...they are the 'victims' you seem like the 'pursecutor' your sister the 'rescuer'? Step out of the drama triangle (said with police megaphone) what are they trying to achieve by letting you know thro your sister? Are they trying to hurt you? Make you the bad guy? You don't have to go along with this. And I don't feel you are doing yourself any favours listening to your sister...you could try 'I'd rather not hear about x y z or our parents' and warn if she does say something you will say bye and put down the phone...how do you feel after listening to her?

Bladebla - ((((hugs))))) you are doing well keeping it together. I hope you get your treatment soon xx As for your family...do you mean you are living with them? Can you give more details? We may be able to help with suggestions on ways to cope...this is the last thing you need...but given you have survived your childhood...you have other means of support now, your not alone...xxxx

Matildax - hope psychologist appt went well for you. Anything you can do is another way to look after yourself and try to heal a little bit more xxx

Right off now...away from pc for a week or so...so I expect to have some catching up to do!

Allyxxxxx

Lionbeast-Really hope you are ok.

mimizan, hi how are you today?
how are you feeling today?
thanks for think about me? it went really well far far better than i expected or could of hoped for, atthough i did have majorly low expectations [self presvervation] i guess.

heres the link to what happened
mimizanhere

Lionbeast- I'm so glad you had a positive outcome yesterday. It sounds like you handled the situation really well, and that you were the one in control.How are you feeling about it now? I expect your head is full, and trying to make sense of it all.

I started 'Toxic Parents' yesterday and I'm about to start reading part 2. It's very enlightening, and left me in no doubt that I have two toxic parents, as well as 2 toxic step parents. What a legacy!
My Mum rang yesterday, after no contact for 3 weeks. She's so negative about almost everything, no wonder I have always felt low and drained after contact with her. However instead of allowing myself to be drawn into her negativity, I responded by leaving silences. She was completely flummoxed, and must now be realising that the game is up, and I'm no longer here to support her, and make her feel better by lashing me emotionally.

What really perplexes me is that I remember her reading Alice Miller books when I was in my teens. Surely she must have found her own parents toxic and why did she not gain insight, and try to modify her own behaviour to her DC? A horrible, horrible thought crossed my mind that she did understand it and used the knowledge she gained against me and my sister. My brother was and still is golden boy so has escaped the pain. She's vile about his partner though.

Like your Mum Lionbeast she can be really, really nice at times. I think she's very unhappy and always has been so can't believe she's hurt us intentionally. DH understands it all but thinks I should work towards forgiveness, and just distance them all while I work it all through. At the moment I just don't want to see any of them.(siblings included) They make me so feel so miserable and sap the joy out of everything.

I've booked to see my GP about a referral for counselling. It seems like a real step forward.

Hi,
I was directed here by ally who read my post on relationships about my terrible relationship with my mother and lack of relationship with any one else.

I have read through some of this very long thread, and see so many people are in similar situations. I think I am coming to some kind of turning point as I have been able to post on here, but then I have thought I was about to be able to do somethiing about her many times before and chickened out.

Ally, I looked at histrionic pd, I dont think that fits her, though she can be very attention seeking and destructive [take the smothering my son incident].

Sakura-
at your father's total spinelessness. I hope you feel more validated in your course for having such clarity, proof of his position. Wow, I am still amazed that, to your face, he would not step up to the plate and be a man. I am very glad for you that you left the house rather than be shuffled into the back room so much like a dog when visitors come.
I know that trip took a lot of courage for you.

My Middle Sister is one of those people who looks down her nose at those who cut out family- I can hear her now- "I would give (xy&z) to have 10 min with my father again. You should be happy your parent isn't dead (said with wide-eyed emphasis)"...
It is just another opportunity for demonstration of needy micro-managing authoritative control as though no one else but her has ever experienced a "loved one" passing away. And no thought what so ever that there could ever possibly be any other perspective on the matter.

Ally-
While pregnant, my hormones probably let me have more resistance to childhood brainwashing mind control- a la-"I shouldn't be thinking these things about her majesty MS". So once I did let myself acknowledge the web of her irritations and the truth of the actual effects on me, the course for healing came into view. For the courage to proceed on my own behalf I believe I really need to give at least some credit to the excellent neonatal vitamins and fish oil supplements I've been taking since becoming pregnant
After the birth, my hormones seemed to reset rather quickly in one or two days this time-just a whole day of crying and not being able to stop-dd1 was but I told her what was happening -while crying out the words-almost comical.
Out from under the influence of Middle Sister-yes-although sometimes I get so "gerrrrr" when I catch myself doing/saying/thinking like her (or from as you say her influence)...But things are getting better-withdrawal-it doesn't happen so often anymore. I don't speak about her anymore (unless to dd1 if she brings it up) for which DH must be grateful.

Smithfield-
Try to find some things to do with ds while holding the baby like a simple board game. I remember having my oldest draw in a notebook at the table while I sat next to him-draw trucks, trains, construction equipment, animals, etc. and copy pictures out of books.
Nothing fancy-just a pen in a spiral bound notebook (low $ investment). 3yr olds also don't yet have a good grasp of time. So if you do something with him even for 5 min, he may be happy with that.

Thanks ally and TMSB for your kind validation regarding my father. I`m getting where I want to be- slowly...

mimizan, hi, thanks for your support
im feeling great today thankyou.
had a lovely sat with dd nd dh.
and feel theres nothing i can't handle from now on.

ive read that book too, i think its really good.
ally and everyone directed me to it when i was kittenbaby quite a few months ago now
what i liked about it, was they way it talks about not having to forgive and why.
i totally agree with the books views on this.sounds like a really positive move to talk to your gp about it.
thinking of you love lion xxx