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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

1000 replies

oneplusone · 01/03/2008 14:10

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

OP posts:
oneplusone · 06/04/2008 21:22

Danea, I really feel for you. You seem to me to be in a place i was not so long ago, mourning the lost potential of ourselves and the lost opportunities of our youth/childhood. I think you have to go through a grieving process for these childhood losses and eventually you reach the point of acceptance and looking forward. But I remember feeling very sad about it all not so long ago.

What you said to smithfield about sloughing off another onion layer and revealing underneath the issues with her MIL sounds once again spot on to me. Again i went through the exact same thing, I had faced the issues with regard my parents and once that layer came off it revealed the layer involving my MIL. And now it seems that layer has also come off only to reveal the layer involving my sisters.

And that leads me to something Gloriana said, she described it perfectly "mum to share an almost sisterly relationship with them at the expense of me." That is exactly the relationship my mum had with my sisters, she pushed me out as their sibling and took my place herself, leaving me to be the one who always felt alone and left out instead of her.

And i totally agree with Sakura about MIL's; they most certainly do need boundaries, very clear ones, set out by both you and DH to be effective I think. And also what Sakura said about MIL thinking she was on an equal level with you with regard to DC's. My mother was like this. I think she was genuinely bewildered by the fact that even though she had say, spent the whole day with DD in the park or something similar having lots of fun, when they got home DD always wanted ME, her mummy. My mum just couldn't understand it, and I too was bewildered at just how little my mother seemed to understand mother/child relationships as she had had 3 children herself! But she just couldn't seem to grasp that a child will always want it's mummy no matter how nice nana/granpa etc were to them.

I guess we are all lucky in that we seem to have wisdom beyond our years in a way I suppose, greater wisdom and insight than our own parents who, in my case, are at least 30 years older than me.

OP posts:
CrushWithEyeliner · 07/04/2008 10:51

Hello - May I join your thread? I have been following for a while but feel I need to get a lot of these thoughts down and get your opinions and maybe help on my situation.

Since having DD a yr ago I suffered PND and for some reason a lot of memories from my childhood started coming back to me, all bad ones ( I don't have any joyful memories from when I was young at all). I had a lot of contact with my Mother and I think having her around so much regressed me into being a child again in many ways. I started to remember how many times she hit me - whacked across the face mainly and usually in front of others - one time at Brownies is such a vivid memory I couldn't believe she hit me for just fooling around, all my friends looking on in horror. Other times at parties, holidays and even when we had a teenagey kind of row she would belt me - I once remember being maybe about 8 and her trying to cover up a mark in the toilets and then marched me back to the table - I am sure all the relatives knew what happened. Surely this is wrong?

I was a very troubled child and really quite bratty and difficult in many ways so I wasn't perfect. I think that was how she brought us all up - very unaware of how to behave in social situations and hence when we misbehaved we would be punished.
I should explain I have a much older sister who has almost been excommunicated from the family - a very troubled person who has been very vocal about how she feels our Mother has ruined her life. I grew up with this and kind of became numb to it as was told time and again by my parents that she went crazy at 13, became physically and verbally abusive to them. Whenever I have tried to communicate how I felt Mother did things that were wrong I got accused of bring just like XXXXX and ungrateful, blaming my inadequacies on her, and lots of "stately home" comments. Although I have no recollection of these times my Mother quotes, I think she is getting things mixed up.
There is so much more to say - I could write forever. But I think what I am realising now after having DD is that my parents have zapped every ounce of confidence from my being. I feel utterly paralised. I see my life has been a catalogue of missed oppourtunities and regret.

My Mother has literally throughout my life, criticised every decision I have made, esp in those important formative years- been the one in my ear whispering that I couldn't do it and low and behold I couldn't. That my friends would let me down (they did btw). When I fuck up (and i have many, many times including a nasty breakdown at 21, she has always been there to pick up the pieces and help - even now with the PND and having DD she was there to help. So I feel if I confront her she can ridicule me (quite rightly) for being so utterly dependent on her.

She is a powerful Woman but an odd Woman and I knew from a very young age that people found her very strange. My father too really, a lovely man very kind and gentle but totally subservient to her - almost scared. Although there were some violent rows - all hazy memories coming back to me - why now??? Our family home was not a microcosm for society, where things were talked about sensibly or with any rationale. It was like a retreat from reality. If there was a problem in the family my Mother simply took control and we were not told about anything. Do you know we had a lodger move in when I was 10 and the first I knew about it was when a very odd man turned up with suitcases and moved into our house. Simple as that..oh and many other things..
I apologise for the length of this. I wonder why these bad memories will not leave me alone. It is too late for confrontation now, so what do i do?
Thanks for listening

Podmog · 07/04/2008 11:44

Message withdrawn

smithfield · 07/04/2008 13:14

sakura- Your post really brought my MIL into focus for me. I still remember your very apt description of your own MIL as the SMILING ASSASSIN....and now I see why it stuck securely in my mind. This is exactly what my MIL is.
I could go on about the 'evidence' that leads me to deductions over her toxicity...but I do need to allow myself/give myself permission (as many of you have said) to have these feelings and trust them. This is what is so hard for me to do.
I think as TMSB said I need to build a wall in my mind and KNOW what she is about and not allow her behaviour to continue unheeded.

I have decided she will 'not' be having responsibility for any childcare when I go back to work. I dont want to pull ds away from her entirely. After all he loves her dearly and I have to be mindful of projecting 'my' agenda/insercurities on to him.

But I do think 'bonkers nanna time' needs to be limited. And having 'some bonkers nanna time' as opposed to having bonkers nanna help raise you, are two different things.

I also think ds needs more interaction with other kids now, (migsie you are very wise) so I will be focussing on giving him that while I have the time on mat leave to do so.

I also feel 'today' (in a more positive mindframe) that I do need to keep in mind 1stly... 'I AM' in control, I do not need to be afraid of this woman. I can say yes to her or no and not need to give her any explanantions.

I 'can' keep myself safe. I am an adult I am an adult I am an adult!.

Whats more I am an adult with caller ID!

2ndly- I need to somehow find the confidence that as ds's mother I can not be replaced/usurped, regardless of bonkers granny's antics. But the truth is I dont believe this to be true and Im not sure why.

Migsie- think it was you that mentioned these feelings being dominant for you too.

I am wondering if the fact I had PND when I had him comes into play here.

I read a beautiful post from one mum on the postnatal thread and it described how for a long time, she never thought she figured as important in her ds's life??? (crazy I know) but because he smiled at everyone else not her, and didnt cry if she left him with someone else (not a complete stranger obviously) he didnt actually love her as a ds could/should. She also realised that as she had PND she had felt incompitant as a mother and so projected that on to her ds, thinking he picked up on this.

This really sruck home for me...made me well up actually, as I realised this echoed how I felt about ds.

This is exactly how I felt/maybe still feel about ds. That he doesnt love me, because deep down he knows Im a crap mother.

Now I know this sounds so self defacing/obsessed and foolish. As I write it I wonder what I have to gain by even typing this claptrap. But this is surely the crux of my issue with MIL.

IF, I had had a completely different upbringing, and my self esteem and confidence were in tact, I would have no doubt I could not be usurped in ds's affections?
And yes I admit I had thought that if ds really loved me as his mother, he would be happiest to see me arrive nannas house for pick up and be more than happy to come home with me.

But the fact is I do not have that confidence as a mother with ds.

I also recognise that this is probably still a remnant of the PND I suffered when I had him.

Danae- I can also relate totally to what your are saying with regard to lost youth/opportunities. I felt resentful for a long long time.

I have never lost the feeling I could have reached so much higher potential, especially academically and with regard to career, but I never did because of my parents lack of interest and their own projections. In their mind I was not meant for greatness. That spot was reserved for my brother and my sister.

My mother told me when I was just 6 that I would always be just an average student (and I believed her). My father said I would never be as clever as my brother, and I believed that to.

It is only been very recently that I realised neither were true. I felt anger...no worse...an intense rage at being so overtly misled as regards to my own potential.

As to how to get past it? I dont know the answer Im afraid.

But lately for me I try to take one day at a time. And hope that eventually I may come to terms/be at peace with it.

Although I do recognise that it is so important that 'we do' find some internal resolution 'or' as you say our dds may suffer in the future. Either by us trying to live our mispent youth's through them or otherwise acting out jelousies.

Personally, I keep telling myself I still have time and I too am on the brink of 40. But also as I become more content with my own current life (probably as a result of ousting the toxic ones). I tell myself that Ive been on one big voyage of discovery and its landed me where I was supposed to be all along.

As we continue to 'grow' ourselves up, and continue the reparenting work inevitably we will grow to like ourselves more and more, and all the little sub parts of ourselves will be included in that self love.
Here's to hoping!

ally90 · 07/04/2008 14:27

((((podmog))))) its so hard not to have that nurturing.

Crushwitheyeliner - Firstly welcome to the thread, glad you had the courage to post

Why would it be too late for confrontation? Its never too late for that. Even if they pass away you can still do something to tell them how you feel. And confrontations don't have to happen if you don't want them too, you can back away, cut contact down to cards on birthdays and christmas, phone contact only, or send a letter/email and confront her that way, if you wanted to. Its all up to you.

The memories are coming back as your nurturing tendancies have come to the fore with your child. Its inevitable that if we have a child in our arms, we then start thinking back to our own childhood, and what happened. Because to a 'normal' parent, they go back and bring forwards the behaviour their mother showed them (ie nurturing, firm, loving) however when we go back there is a discordant jangle of nerves and we start thinking 'how could they have done x y z to me?!' or 'I can't do that! So what do I do to help dc?' bit cheesy but you hopefully get my point. That is probably why your memories are coming back, mine certainly did.

So what do you do? How possible is it for you to put space between yourself and your mother? Is it possible, when you feel ready to contact your 'mental' sister? I must say I got very verbally abusive when at 16 I realised I had been abused/lied to all my life! And if she was physically abused aswell...well its seems a small leap for her to make to start hitting your mother back. I'm not saying it was right, but at 13 and no way to get help...its very understandable.

Do you have a dh/dp that knows your mother/understands her? Have you got any self help books? Have you had any therapy? All these things can help. There is a way out of this, and that is away from your distructive, physically and emotionally abusive and neglectful mother. And please don't try to say you deserved her behaviour as you were 'bratish', you were not responsible for her behaviour as a child or as an adult. She is.

allyxxx

Hi to everyone else...! Smithfield, can I join the 'bonkers' MIL club? And you ARE in control...no one can make you do anything you don't want to do. I've mastered the vacant 'hello is anyone in there?' smile when anything I don't want to hear is being said she doesn't know what to do with that!

smithfield · 07/04/2008 15:03

ally- Of course you can - And the club could be a little like I 'mental gym'. We could have 'boundary workouts' for dealing with all bonkers family members (excluding higly toxic immediate bonkers family members of course).

We could post daily 'back off bonkers granny' tips for instance.

Anyone else want to join??

smithfield · 07/04/2008 15:09

sorry -cwe- Hello and welcome.

Podmog- You could write the letter just for yourself?. Dont think about your mum for now, focus on what you want to say.

You could also just start writing random scribblings every day just as a starter. The problem normally is that we are all so adapt at being disconnected, hence the block in writing a letter that may put you back in touch. The letter will help (be a start at least) at re-connecting with your feelings.
Dont put too much pressure on yourself though...baby steps. (((good luck)))

Danae · 07/04/2008 15:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ally90 · 07/04/2008 20:21

Smithfield - we could have a Toxic MIL thread going now that would be popular...!

Danae - no you are not the mental one. My mates look at me odd when I talk about NPD BPD etc...really feel sad for you that the one family member you thought cared for you doesn't I remember how I felt when my dad made clear where his loyalty lay...and it was most definately with my toxic mother... Anyway...don't I remember you saying something about your sister telling you were tied down in your high chair for hours...or something...and that you were incrediably angry as a child until you went apathetic. I actually spoke of you to dh tonight as being one of the saddest people on this thread and how much you had come on leaps and bounds since being here...you still have done really well you know...just a set back today due to a probably toxic family member contact. Its bound to take it out of you having the rug taken from under your feet by your sister Just be good to yourself for the next few weeks...we're all here for you

Right just off to set up another thread...I'm wanting to find out if I'm the only person who does not actually miss my mother...or want her around...I just always feel slightly patronising advising people on here about grief when I don't feel it about my family...am I the only one? Hmm! Could be interesting this...

allyxxxx

Danae · 07/04/2008 20:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

toomanystuffedbears · 07/04/2008 21:51

Hi everyone.

My bonkers mil has actually said some nice things to me since dd2 was born. She has said several times how lucky I am to have another baby especially at my age (46)- and that she wished she had had another baby at a later age...and on seeing photos of my dd2 she went on and on how cute and beautiful she is.

She is still bonkers and I still don't hold any expectations regarding her. She lost my respect when fil was enduring his heart attack episode several years ago; she was saving up strife to throw at him when he got out of the hospital-I don't think she even went to the hospital once to see him!

Bonkers is a swell term! bonkers- it'd be a good vanity license plate for her lol.

My sil was in the process of buying a building for her small business and they wanted my dh to cosign the loan. He refused because he is acutely aware of the risks and boundaries of getting sucked into his family's problems... Well, sil and mil blamed me for his refusal and she had to close her small business (she always wasted all profits immediately-it wasn't dh's fault). So sil and mil's treatment of me became even more toxic. I finally told dh that I would no longer ever visit there again (512 miles away)-'because they blame me for your not cosigning the loan: eternally unforgivable.' DH, I believe, set them straight and their behavior has softened considerably...still I sit out every third visit or so (except now that dd2 is here-I'll go every time).

It is an odd feeling though, that they are nice to me.
Mil and Fil are getting on in years, maybe that is softening their perspective.

Dh received an award at work recently and his photo was published with the citation. Mil told me she was shocked how old he looked: her son was a grown man! (He is 48) I wonder if she could then follow up on that and recognize that I'm an adult too? No matter, I'm not emotionally invested anymore.
----
Oneplusone- detachment vs. indifference
I too think the distinction is important but I sometimes find myself a bit muddled by it...
detachment-care but not care so much to sacrifice ourselves anymore

indifference-zero response as to a stranger on the street

I am still kind of shuffling my feelings regarding my lovely Middle Sister-or rather working on the wall in my mind (here's mine Smithfield ) and knowing the right words, exactly helps sustain strength. Any doubt is potential sabotage.

I have not had contact for 3 weeks now...I sent photos of the baby, but I feel guilt about her not seeing the baby. I guess I can see her in my mind's eye saying to her friends-"Well, I have not even been allowed to see the baby yet". I need to remember that for my daughter (and -heaven knows- my teenagers!) to get the best of me, I need to avoid the toxic influence of MS. Then thinking of a meeting with her, dear me, I would dread, dread, dread it. It may just have to be a necessary negative. The consequences certainly would outweigh the generosity.

Diaper emergency...got to go.

Danae · 07/04/2008 22:10

Message withdrawn

gloriana · 07/04/2008 22:40

Crush - welcome to the thread and well done for posting. I agree with ally that it's never too late for confrontation and that maybe writing a letter for yourself of things that you would like to discuss with your mum would be a good start. We are here to listen to you when you need to share the memories that pop to the surface.

Some of what you said resonated with me - I'd completely forgotten about how my mum and dad never consulted with us about anything. I can totally identify with the lodger - my mum and dad didn't tell us that they'd got divorced or that our family cat had been put down. Makes me realise that I have completely learnt never to question, and to always be disconnected with what any sane normal person would have thought. Surely a normal person would have realised that their parents were behaving oddly and questioned the statement that 'mum and dad are living apart for a bit for tax reasons' but no, I just blindly accept and carry on. Only comes out 2 years later that they are actually divorced and that my mum went to the High Court and everything

Smithfield - it's great to hear you sounding so positive about the MIL! Well done you! It really cheered me up to read what you'd written and I thought that maybe I could do some of the 'I am an adult, I am in control' stuff - thank you!

Podmog - BIG HUGS to you. Thinking of you and hoping you can take the small, small steps.

Danae - also sending you big hugs for your sister's bombshell. You must remember that you are the one who has sought help and is on the road to recovery and that no matter how bad it gets for you in your journey, they are stuck with their heads in the sand, passing on their unhappiness to the next generation.

Having read your posts on MN, I was shocked to think that your family think you are a fruitloop! You are a very generous thoughtful individual on here that shares a great deal of insight with people that need someone to listen. It's obvious that your feelings are in no way 'dysfunctional'. I love the fact that you have a loving partner and family and they have all had ghastly divorces - ha!

For me today the issue is still anger. I have screamed my head off today at DS1 and DS2. It is the end of the school hols but I am still just so unreasonable with them. DS1 (who was 7 yesterday) has a school project to do and I find myself getting so cross at him because he shows a) NO interest in doing it b) I have to tell him every sentence to write c) I have to watch his every drawing/piece of writing in case he takes leave of his senses and makes a complete mess. Why do I do this? Does it matter if he completely fucks up his project? No it doesn't. Why do I feel the need to do it well for his teacher? I almost feel like it's a project for me and I'm going to be marked for it! DS2 has a diary to write and it's a similar story for him too. I feel like I'm one of those toxic mothers and they'll be writing on MN about me in a few years' time

CrushWithEyeliner · 08/04/2008 10:32

Thank you everyone for responding to me and hello.
I honestly feel that it would just be pointless to confront after so many silly, failed attempts on my part. Mother either says I am making her ill, or I get this awful line about "well I suppose you have to blame your failings on someone" which just makes me feel worse. It makes me look ridiculous when I ask at 32 why I wasn't taken for a bra fitting at 14 when my boobs were large and heavy - she just laughs and says - "god you really are scaraping the barrel to find things I did wrong" and I look the fool.

Also DD adores her - she is amazing with her. Actually she is phenomenal with very young children, really kind, patient, caring and loving. The dramatic change comes about 6 or 7 I think..well that's when the smacking started from what i remember.

Thank you Danae for your comments - although part of my anger is that I just wasn't taught how to behave. I was allowed to get away with all sorts of ridiculous behavior on one level but severely punished for the most inane things. I wasn't taught to have any social skills because my mother doesn't really either. So the result was silly, bratty and rude behavior which I feel so embarrassed about now. It is really really difficult to explain.

Gloriana thank you - you have hit the nail on the head about just watching life pass by and feeling powerless to do anything about it. That is me - "i was so infantacised" throughout important formative years that even now DH comments about how unaware I am of the world and how childlike i am.
Ally i have thought many times about contacting 1st sister but it will be a battleground and highly emotional. She was violent towards me and a very troubled person who dosen't like me at all - she also puts horrid thoughts in my head and says there is mental illness in the family which just freaks me out tbh. I am not sure if I am ready yet.
Sorry to just talk about myself all the time

X

lionbeast · 08/04/2008 13:18

hi everyone, well my post is quite long so ive also posted it seperatly but i wantted to share it with you guys too,
i have decided to confront my parents about how they treated me and could do with any pointer hint or tips here is my "story"

do you think my parents [well mum particularly] was toxic?

hi ive dipped my toe onto the toxic thread many months ago,when i was having problems with my mum about bf, as kittenbaby.

a couple of you asked me what my story was and i wasnt up to telling the whole thing then, but i am now...

well i am one of three, have two older brothers, mum has always prefered the middle one,im the youngest, she really battered my self esteem, she used to tell me she hated me and that i was clean on the outside and dirty on the inside,

sometimes she wouldnt speak to me for days and she'd say you'll need me before i need you [yes i was a child ffs] and when she used to be a bitch to me she used to say yeah you know what you can do if you don't like it.

she has hit me a few times althought there was about 5 times when i was a teenager,for example the last time she hit me i was 18, and we where both in the kitchen and i was probably irritating her, the freezer had a dodgy drawer whick kept falling out, and the drawer fell out when i was getting something out, so she whacked me one in the face, i pushed her off me, she called my dad who pushed me up against the kitchen wall, she then later tried to make out that i nearly broke her finger!

i never once hit her back ive only ever pushed her off me when she was hitting me in the face, and then i get accused of almost breaking her finger.

you know i wish i could of gone back in time and i wouldnt of hit her back, i would of called the police.

i moved out when i was 16, i moved in with a boyfriend for five weeks, i never loved him, it was just a chance to escape, five weeks later i was back home as he had finished with me.

she said it was because the house was flithy [we where only there 5 weeks,and both worked fulltime id been working a month and left home straight away ]and id never keep a man,

when i told mum a few years later that i never loved him i just moved in with him to get away from home, she said i dont believe you as you wouldnt of gone away to paris with him[yes we had a mini trip to paris, so that means i really loved him ]

anyway as the years when by i meet my now dh and moved out aged about 22, she was ok with me really when i left home, like she could tolerate me in small doses, then when i became PG i felt vunerable around her again.

this was when she decided it was a good time to tell me my dad never had any time for me or interest in me.
when i said i didnt believe it was true or that even if it was true, then he never made me feel that way.
she said it must of been because she did a good job of hiding it from me

i dint feel upto asking dad about it at that point as i was feeling rough and had bleeding and cramping and thought i was going to have a mc when mum said all this to me, so i didnt feel upto or strong enough the confrontation then but i do now.

yes dad never stopped it ,but im not sure that was true, although i have decided im going to confront dad about it, otherwise its always going to make me wonder even after hes dead. and i want to give him the chance to tell me straight.
although it could cause ww3 it has to be done for my sake and dads.

also when i was PG we only told my mum and dad and pil, asked them not to tell anyone,mum had already slatted my other sil for telling everyone that she was PG before 12 weeks,so with my news mum decideds to tell fav sil, and then doesnt tell me shes told her, then when i was on the phone talking to mum about a sugar test she turns round to fav sil who was there at the time oh you never had that did you? so of course im shocked and say so sil knows then does she? then mum turns on me and has a go at me say i think youll find if you told her she would be very understanding in a really pissed off way, and she still hasnt said soryy about that, no im the one in the wrong again

she worked fulltime when i started junior school and never had anytime for me, i got really behind at school yet her and dad had no idea, its not her fault for having to work, it must of been quite hard, but she still could of made time to see how i was getting on at school.

it didnt help that she did stuff like once when i was going to a friends party after school, i said id pop round the neighbours and tell her not to pick me up,as it was the neighbour that used to pick me up from school, mum said no ill tell her, i said oh ive got time ill go round now, no, mum shouts , so anyway guess what mum forgets to tell the neighbour not to collect me so all panic sets out at the school when the neighbout comes to collect me andf im not there, so i end up the next day getting a massive bollocking from the teacher, who said it was my fault.

about three days after i had dd, i had 4 th degree tears, she was nagging me to have a salt bath, i checked with the midwife who said salt bath where not really reccommended these days as there are a bit harsh, when i very carefully told her why i was not having salt baths she got really pissed off and snapped well perhaps women where a bit tougher in my day.[give birth to dd without any pain relief, but yet im a wimp of course]

i tried to avoid the whole subject by saying hmm yes maybe, ok ill think about that etc, but she wouldnt leave it alone until she started asking directly have you had one yet? and i didnt feel comfortable lying.

also when i had to go to my follow up with the gp i was a bit upset as he said i may suffer incontinence in the future as a result of the 4th degree tear, and she said i need to get things into persective in a really nasty stop going on a bout it type way.
and when i had a flashback and thought i was in labout about 4 nights after having dd, the mw was really kind and came and spent about 2-3 hours with me talking though what happened, and said it was normal to get flashbacks after such a traumatic event, it really helped talking it though, and when i said to mum it really helped talking it though she said, i think people talk about things far too much these days. and that you can talk about things too much.
when my cousin was asking me about the birth, and said i was so unlucky with what happened[abouth the 4th degree], mum pipes up well thats just what happened to me with fav son, [no it wasnt it wasnt even a 3rd degree as she did not have to have a repair operation] i just meekly replied well i dont think it was quite the same thing.

when i was struggling to bf, she keep saying that maybe dd wasnt getting enough milk and as dd was a frequent feeder that she should be more content by now one time she actually took her off me and said she doesny want another feed [dd was crying] and said she wants a nap and put her in her pram and started rocking her, dd started crying even more, so i picked her up and fed her. dd was only a few weeks old, what sort of person takes someones NB off them telling them what they want?and she keep telling me the bf is ok if its done discreatly and is not flaunted in public, when as dd was such a frequent feeder i had to feed her in public otherwise i wouldnt of been able to leave the house for 6 months.she say comments like my sil always fed at home as "shes not like that" in other words i was a slut to bf my baby, she does have a lot of issues about bf, and she was really trying to stop me from doing it with she didnt achieve.

anyway i used to have no confidence around my family,but i have changed quite alot since having dd, i was always having others opinions rammed down my throats and mine never getting listened to or even bothering to voice my opinions before[only within my family] never at work or with friends or dh[lucky for me i have a great dh thank goodness and didnt go for someone that was also abusive and would also say nasty things to me which i think quite alot of people with my childhood perhaps would.

i used to be scared id be a crap mum because of my childhood and now i know thats not true and i would never ever say or do those thing to my lovely dd.
its like my biggest fear is gone.

the odd thing is, that mum can sometimes be really nice.

but now if someone in my family tries to tell me something i don't agree with i tell them, and funny enough they have stopped doing it so much.
and thats why ive decided to ask my dad about what she said and tell him about all of the stuff she has said and done.it could cause me never to see them again and if that happens thats ok with me i have a happy marraige and a lovely baby, and its is there loss. or dad could be shocked and horrified i really do not know.i know mum will denigh and twist everything.she has never admitted anything or apolagised for anything in her life.i think she thinks apoalgising is a sign of weakness or something.
but im 30 now and im not having it anymore.

so got any ideas how i should bring it up with dad??, i was thinking about saying something like, i need to talk to you about something, its not going to be nice for either of us, but i need to know if something is true or not, notherwise ill will always wonder even after your dead, then proceed to ask him about the comments mum made about him....do you think i should write some stuff down so i dont forget to mention anything?its gonna be hard to get dad alone

Danae · 08/04/2008 13:18

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Danae · 08/04/2008 13:27

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ally90 · 08/04/2008 14:09

Lionbeast - Very toxic...

I found your post really shocking lion, very painful to even read it as an adult let alone live it as a child.

Confrontation wise...Toxic parents by susan forward, emotional healing by beverley engle cover confrontation. Toxic parents is excellent on the various responses they can give and the responses you can give back. They also recommend practicing first on someone or just a chair, take notes if you need to so you don't forget anything...

If you want to post further do so! Doesn't matter about commenting on other people's posts, you just get the support you need from here to get through this

Gloriana - re your son's homework. Perhaps you can write down everything you remember about schoolwork/achievement and your mothers/fathers/peers attitude towards it. Sometimes it can really hit on the sorepoint that makes you over react and heal it. It has worked for me on occasion and very strange when all my previous antagonism vanishes 'just like that'...for me it was pregnancy, felt phsyically ill/sick at the thought of it, even dreamt about it and felt ill. Was chatting around the issue with dh a few years ago and suddenly I hit upon what was wrong...not fearing abusing my own dc, but the emotional abuse my father inflicted on my mother. The instant I understood that all my feelings about being pg vanished...very strange.

TMSB - FOG ahead!!!! Fear Obligation Guilt...she deserves none of it! Bet she doesn't put your side across...or mention her trying for maternity leave! Or maybe she will and they will be sat thinking 'my god!'

Danae...brilliant post! Really got alot out of that...just re read again...

Crush - you mean you don't also get the 'shush shush shush' line as well? sounds like my mother wriggling out of all responsibility for her actions. I had the bra issue too, taken for ONE fitting...in early teens...(and ridiculed in it by my mother and sister) then not taken again...had same bra til my mid twenties, wireless, nylon 10 quid job from M&S for those 10ish years! And strangely when I finally plucked up courage to get checked again...I had gone from a B cup to a F cup...strange that...no wonder I had double boobs most my life . Toxic Parents deals well with the various responses toxic parents make...and I also agree with Danae that sometimes confrontation can be a complete waste of time and energy...I think it is of use when you really feel like you want to confront them and have all your answers ready...personally I did not want the rejection of my feelings again and be made to be ridiculed again like you. I did a letter...they still made out I was ungrateful and ridiculous and stubbon and childish and things were much worse in their day you know...but at least it broke contact cleanly with my mother...if she chooses to reinterpret my letter that's her look out...the truth is there if she chooses to see it.

allyxxx

lionbeast · 08/04/2008 14:26

thanks ally, it good to hear other confirm that it is toxic behaviour, ive got the book toxic parens on your reccomendation when i posted for help as kittenbaby. its a good book and i recognise alot of things in there from my mother such as never admitting anything twisting things controlling and never say sorry ever.
you know i do find confussing though is sometimes she is really nice.
i wish she was a bitch all the time as then it would be so easy, i would be the one to cut her out of my life. but shes quite mixed bag.iykwim
its shockerd me a bit to see it all written down in black and white, ther eis so many personal; detailsa bout myself if any searchsd lionbeast or kittenbaby im probably very identifiable, but so what, they are the ones that should feel ashamed of how i was treated i was jusy a kid.
so if anyone in rl knows me or them , oh well !

ally90 · 08/04/2008 14:45

Something I worry about too is being recognised and the inevitable ridicule my family would make of my outpourings...but then I see how helpful other peoples posts are and think I'm buggered if I will delete it all to save my blushes or their possible blushes/ridicule!

My mother can be nice too...but its her behaviour overall that made me break contact. I just do not trust her 'niceness' or how long it will last for. Trust is a very important part of any relationship...and if you don't have it, you don't have a good relationship...

lionbeast · 08/04/2008 15:00

yes thats a good point about trust, i definatly do not trust her.

sometimes i think her niceness is just a way of throwing me a crumb every now and then to keep me interested. and like shes playing around with me.

kaz33 · 08/04/2008 15:56

Hi Lionbeast - you most definitely had a toxic mother and the first step in realising it is liberating.

You don't say much about your dad and seem to apply that all this went on without his knowledge.

What do you expect from him, if you confront him? If you are expecting validation and oh my god I didn't realise she was that bad then I suspect that you might be sorely disappointed.

I think two things are likely

  • your dad might have been so worn down by your mothers volatile behaviour that he is desensitised and does anything to keep an easy life so is unlikely to side with you; (as with my brother and his very NPD wife); OR
  • your dad had his own important part to play in the dysfunction and you have been projecting images of your father as the all good saviour on to him. That is quite likely as the hurt child tries to bring order to disorder (I recently realised that I had idealised my father and always thought that he was somehow on my side - even though all the evidence pointed to the fact that he was just as dsyfunctional as my mum and maybe even the instigator.)

Realising that your parents are faliable, failed and fucked up probably because of their own messed up childhood's is quite liberating. Though I admit a huge step to take (which I have just done).

"We are all guilty, but no-one is to blame"

Danae · 08/04/2008 16:28

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Danae · 08/04/2008 16:31

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Danae · 08/04/2008 16:45

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