"But we took you to stately homes" part 3

[oneplusone]

Sorry for starting part 3 if it has already been started but i logged on just now and found the previous thread has reached 1000 posts. And my title is not very inspiring, Ally90, please help!

Hi Ally, I am very calm (mostly) - it is early days and I was very tired. However, most importantly I am calmer with the boys and have had some interactions with my parents that have not sent me into a tale spin.

I'm not giving details of what we did, because it sort of spoils it if you describe it all - but merely to say that there is some intense anger work, its quite spirtual with meditations and it works very much on the premise of giving you tools to deal with your issues and rebuild yourself in the manner that you wish.

I have posted on here - a few threads ago - and return for support to go forward, not back. In no way have I suffered like many of you but I realise that perhaps my parents were toxic and actually still are. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt but then stuff happens and it just comes back...

Before Easter my mum came to stay for the night. She was OK although the number of times she promised something to the children that I & DH know she will not deliver is depressing - "Granny wants to take you here", "Granny wants to do that kit with you when you come to stay" etc They once took DC on holiday and when I called one evening to speak to the children my mum said that they were in the pool - great thinks I - that's nice of Dad to take them swimming (never took me swimming when I was a child) - oh no, Dad is here with a beer and the paper, the children have made some friends and their grandfather is in the pool with them! This is someone they have met in the last 24 hours... DH had to restrain me from going to pick them up. This is the first and last time my DC go away with them.

Anyway that is an aside...Mum says that she really wants to see us over Easter, will we go down to stay? I manage to give reasons that we cannot stay which are not "that it is too stressful", and so we agree that we'll go down to their house and my mother says she will cook lunch. Great. DH then asks me what are we going to do for the day - sitting around having lunch is not exactly an outing for the DC when there is absolutely nothing for them to do. So we look on map and in some books and come up with a couple of suggestions on some things we could all do for the afternoon. I had a sixth sense this was going to go badly so got DH to call my parents - I am a grown woman FGS and have to get DH to call my parents...

DH: We were thinking of something to do when we come down
Dad: What do you mean?
DH: Well can we go somewhere after lunch? What about X, Y or Z (Z funnily enough happened to be a stately home!!
Dad: Well no, not really. We don't want to go out
DH: Sitting around having lunch isn't much of a trip for the DC. It's a bit of a journey and thought we could all go out
Dad Why do we have to do something with the DC? Why does everything revolve around them?
DH: Because they come with us!
Dad: No, mother does not want to go out
DH: OK then, we'll leave it for now.
DH Hangs Up!

Was so proud of DH - my hero. He says they were crap parents and are rubbish grandparents - they like the idea of grandchildren but not actually the children themselves.

Anyway I feel this is a natural break and the longer we can leave it the better...but I am supposed to ve organising for me and my mother to take an elderly friend out to lunch. My mother has given me dates she can do but I would rather not talk to her at all but do not want to let down little old lady.

Hi. TMSB, your last para of your last post was brilliant. I read it a few times and it is such good advice, especially when you said 'the erosion may be subtle but it will build up over time especially ir you are not exactly...aware of what is happening'. What you said is spot on, and applies to me and my relationship with my sisters.

I think I am only just beginning to realise the full extent of their toxic behaviour towards me which was never commented on/or stopped by my parents. I can't believe now how I have until recently been almost desperate to cling on to any relationship I can have with them and feeling like it would be such a loss if they were to cut me off. I am beginning to think now that I want nothing to do with them, that it is they who don't deserve me as a sister and if they cut me off it will most certainly be their loss and not mine. Their erosion of me has been subtle and not so subtle at times as well, but I have until now been completely blind and deaf to it all. I have so many memeories returning of past events where they have treated me so cruelly and callously, way over and above the usual and normal sibling arguments and rivalry, it is clear to me now they have no respect for me, nor any true feelings for me. And now I have no idea why i was so keen to have them in my life. I am so glad I wrote to them both stating a little bit of how i felt, but now i think i didn't go far enough and as usual i was trying to spare their feelings at the cost of my own. Well, my blinkers are well and truly off now and i think i am going to draft out a couple more emails and say exactly how i feel and this time i'm going to be completely true to myself and my feelings and leave them to worry about themselves. My youngest sister is 7.5 months pregnant so that's an added complication....I am very conscious of not wanting to upset her whilst she's pregnant. But then i keep thinking about how she has never shown me the same consideration, she was more than happy to judge and condemn me just after I had had DS and I feel a woman is even more vulnerable after she has had a baby than whilst she is pregnant. It's a tough one, will perhaps have to think a bit longer about it.

I just wanted to say a big, huge congratulations and pat on the back to everyone here, including myself! It has recently really struck me just how courageous, brave and resilient we all are just to be posting on this thread. To think we have all in various ways been effectively emotionally, mentally and psychologically 'disabled' by our parents and then sent out to make our own way into the world, to try and fit in, to work, to form relationships, but without the tools to be able to do this effectively and successfully. Worst of all to the outside world we have no actual apparent physical disability and so it appears that we are just inadequate or failures for not achieving as much as others, or struggling in some way. Whereas the truth is that in my eyes, to have got this far, to have DC's that we love and want to do our best by, to be willing to look honestly at ourselves and to want to improve is more of an achievement and success, considering what we went through as children, than anything else that could be possible. We should all be so proud of ourselves

Ok, ramble over, back to the housework (or maybe a cuppa and a biscuit!)

Out of interest why couldn't you have had lunch with them then gone off to the stately hme yourselves?

Titchy - we did think of that. DH did suggest that we could go up for an early-ish lunch and then we could go on for our outing but we were told we could not do that because mum was cooking a dish that had to be cooked for 7 hours and so we could not have lunch until 2 at the earliest.

For those of you looking for a therapist, Alice Miller's list of questions to ask them first is on this page

Ally, thanks for that interesting post about food. I too always remember being starving as a child. In our case, the food was not really in the cupboards, but if it was my mother had monopoly of it even untill I left home.
I could make myself toast or grab snacks but I was never shown how to prepare myself nutritious food if there was no-one home. I always remember that my friend taught me how to make scrambled egg on toast, and I made it once at home. I told my mother my friend had taught me, and my mother said "No she didnt , <span class="italic">I</span> taught you how to make that" I said "No you <span class="italic">didnt.
Its interesting you say that you were served last, because I was always served last too. My mother did that on the premise that the younger you were the quicker you needed feeding. Ok, that could be true, but surely it would have been fairer to serve it out on a first come first serve basis?

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Hi Podmog,
I know how it feels when your kids are acting up- it sometimes feels so hard, doesn`t it. Just try to get through today- tomorrow will be a different day.

You must let us know how it goes tomorrow too.

hello again,
went to drs this morning, i have decided to return to see the psychologist i had started to see, before i got pregnant with ds.
i think perhaps you are right, and i need specialist advice.
he did say that i could return at any time, and i would not have to go through the whole referral thing again.
i hope though that none of you will mind me posting on here occasionally though? xx

Matilda - good to hear you are going to pursue this. You are welcome to post at any time, personally I have found this thread very useful and a great validation. I hope you continue to post.

Ally90 - thanks so much for your mammoth post - am so very impressed by your attention to detail

One + One - I feel as if we are in such a similar situation except that you are further along than me in your dealings with your sisters. I am the eldest and have been trying to be a good sister to my next sister down who is pg with her first child. She has been ignoring my phone calls and not saying that she will call me back (and not doing so) for the last week or so. This makes me feel needy and insecure and crave her company more but I am going to be strong and not call her at all. I also have the bonus of my youngest sister returning from abroad at the end of the month and she creates all sort of havoc in her wake - usually meaning that my parents' energy is all focussed on her. Would you mind me asking exactly what you said in your email to your sisters? Also, what is it that you felt you didn't say? I think I am going to go down a similar route (again difficult with sis who is pg!).

Matildax - well done for being so brave as to post on here about your grandfather. I can identify exactly how you feel as I have never had the courage to tell my friends exactly how toxic some of my family are but it seems so easy on here. I feel so sad for you as a small girl, who was so starved for love that abuse was tolerable because it came with love attached . Good luck with your trip to the pyschologist and you are very brave to taken positive action.

Kaz - I read through the web site about the Hoffmann process and think that I will go to the info evening in a couple of weeks. I'm worried that I may not be as committed to changing as you need to be as I find it IMPOSSIBLE to think of myself as lovable in any way. When I have had therapies in the past and been asked to be nice to myself, I just can not override my training from childhood that I don't matter. Do you think this would be a problem? Or can the HProcess still work?

One further thing that I wanted to ask all of you beautiful ladies for advice on was sex. I find it really difficult to let go and enjoy sex, finding it hard to believe that DH can find me attractive. Sometimes I don't even want him to touch me. I have never been abused but find it really hard to trust DH in a sexual context - could I be projecting feelings on to him about my father?

Sometimes it is all just too much - I am in recovery from a 2 day stay at mum and dad's with the DCs. I must remember never to do that again....

Gloriana - is that the information evening in London on 14th April?? I might well be there as it is also a meet up for my group

Feeling unlovable is not a problem for the Hoffman process. What I would say is that 100% commitment is a good thing and strangely enough the more f***d you are it makes it easier to access your feelings. I went there with huge grief about my termination and that allowed me to give myself 100% to the process and really access my feelings.

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Today I feel like a total incompetant mother. I feel I am damaging ds every day I spend time with him. And yet I have also become pre-occupied almost to the point of obsession with my MIL.

The reason being in the light of the above, I am vulnerable to her constant swooping in to take charge of ds. Wisking him off to 'nannas' house where he has a lovely time. As opposed to having a bloody miserable time with his stressed out mummy.

I just cant fathom wether this is an issue which boils down to my own insecurities. As ally pointed out, I cant allow myself to be 'a good enough' mummy. I want the blue ribbon award for being best mummy there is, Falling anything short of this makes me just want to resign from the position all together as inner introject then holds up a big banner saying 'FAILED MISERABLY ON ALL COUNTS'.

So are my instincts/feelings with regard to my MIL correct? Is this smiling, overbearingly helpful woman my enemy or is my own worst enemy me? Is she toxic? or am I just imagining this stuff?

This isnt recent by the way, I have felt like this for a LOoooNG time now. But it is all coming to a head. And I just feel like if I dont write this stuff down I will burst.

I just feel like she is/has always tried to 'compete' with me with regard to my ds. So yes she is helpful, but helpful in order to meet her own needs. Which are to take charge (as much as she can) of my dc's.

I have watched this woman get into ds's face and repeat 'I love you' over and over again and then realise why ds first said those words to his nanna before his mummy. She had coached him to.

My issues with her are so hard to fathom because unlike sakura and oneplusone, she is 'NEVER' rude, in fact she is 'overly' nice. And 'Overly' nice to everyone. And so of course No-one ever falls out with her.

Although I feel a handful of times her mask has slipped with me. She is a very clever woman and I feel like I fell into her net so easily at first due to my vulnerability.

She makes herself 'so' available 'so' helpful.

... but this all IMO is with one goal in mind.... and that is to become and maintain herself as 'centre of ds's universe'.

It hurts that the 'ONLY' help I have is one which I am made to feel like I am being made to compete.

So do I feel like this because I am plagued by insecurities of being a 'good enough mother' to ds. And feelings that he perhaps doesnt love me because of those inadequacies?

Or do these feelings about MIL have foundation?

BTW I hate that I should need approval for my own feelings fgs.

I dont know how to explain what it is she does that makes me feel this way,but I will say that I had to reduce the no of days she had him when I was still working because it became unbearable. It felt like a constant power struggle where 'she' felt she was in charge.

It ended in a row between us where she said 'I feel I have to be his mummy cos your not around'! .
UHM hello Im not dead...Im working! Working to keep a roof over my family's head.
The row happened because Id said Id pick ds up early to take him swimming (look of disapointment), and when I turned up she'd put him down for a late sleep.

Every time i came to collect him from work I'd have a nigthmare getting him to come with me as a new game would have begun, or something to eat would have been produced just as mummy's car pulls up for pick up!.

Because of this I get very stressed about going back to work and having to feel like this all over again. As at least at the moment she has to tread carefully, because she knows Im in charge again.

Ds often says 'I want my nanna' when he is upset. This hurts me.

So maybe I am jelous? But I simply cant compete As at home, there has to be boundaries, and of course I cant constantly play with him like she does.

Ok now Im writing this I feel like a selfish cow because I think why shouldnt ds go to his nannas...have a good time and be a bit spoilt. Why does this get to me SO much????

But its not the odd occassion you understand. (Like you ally she's not satisfied with once a week even!)

In fact what she has cunningly done is reclaim her days that she had him while I was working. This stopped when I first went on mat leave, much to her disappointment. She had badgered me over this, but I made it clear it was important for 'me' to spend time with him before the baby came.

But since dd's arrival I've been more vulnerable especially as dds is/has been so difficult during the day (doesnt sleep)... and so have let him go back to going to hers twice a week. But he's also at nursery twice a week. So I feel I barely see him... and that it 'aint that great when I do.

I know claiming him back again for those two days will be like pulling him from the jaws of a rotweiller!. Especially whilst in the back of my mind recently I feel loke he has such a lousy time with me .

DH says she but is 'just' trying to help.

So maybe she is...so AIBU??

Sorry I couldnt face being hung drawn and quatered on a seperate thread.

You all know my background and I dont think I could possibly explain this to others.

Oh and to clarify- he is the only grandson so I do think she is replication her relationship with dh IYSWIM, hence the obsessiveness over him in particular.

smithfield...how terrible for you.
Your MIL is a control freak, she is undermining you and making herself indispensable in your DS psyche.
(She also sounds like Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter, twisted and evil hiding behind a mask of self righteousness).

When I was down I felt I was a "bad" mother.
This is not true. A child needs their mother and will automatically love them. Unless you are physically abusing and harming DS you are the best mother, the one he wants and needs. He is being browbeaten by your MIL and is too young to see what is happening to him.
My grandmother did this to me, implying my parents were crap etc etc. At the time I was thrilled to get all the presents and things but now, looking back as an adult, I am horrified at what she did and that my parents did nothing, until much later, when I was a teenager and my mother absolutely flipped and told my dad she never wanted us children to see the evil witch ever again.
She sat down and went through all the terrible things Granny had done to my dad and her and other members of the family and then I agreed with her and I never saw Granny again. I still appalled at how she messed with my mind, and my brother is too.
I wish my mum had siad something sooner, and now, I recognise the personality type from 100 paces.

You are not harming your son, but she is, please distance yourself from her. you will have to ride out the "where is nanna" stuff but you will emerge stronger and your son will be happier for it in the long run.
Increase nursery if you can or find some other mechanism to keep him and your DD away from her unless you are around.
Talk to your husband about your MIL tactics, but she probably did something similar with him and he won't be able to see it. If you feel DH can't understand see if you can find couselling or someone you can trust and talk to.

Hope this helps.

You are a good mother as you have your son's mental health as your top priority. You are looking out for him.

Migsie- Thankyou so much for taking the time to read and reply to this.

I honestly feel like Im going crazy with this some days. Just to get some validation means so much.

You mention messing with his psyche? I often think this but wonder how it is possible. It is hard to know how she does this stuff and it is all so subtle. But surely calling nanna 'mummy' by mistake is not normal, nor his her telling me this is what he is doing . Albeit she tells me as though its funny. Not so to me.

This morning, it came to a head as he was crying as dh tried to get him ready and started saying I want my gaga (grandad). I flipped at dh and said...that child thinks he has two sets of parents, and its cos of your mother. But then Im unable to say 'How' this is happening.

The whole scenario has come through my own terrible issues with guilt. Guilt through having to work, guilt through putting him to nursery (fo two days) but his nanna (who he much prefers to be with above nursery) would have him those two days also.

sorry last bit of post is confusing- what Im trying to say is. I thought I was doing the right thing giving him up to the most loving environment I could whilst I worked.
And yet all I feel is diminished as a mother.

Smithfield-

You know MIL is playing you, so you have to build your defense wall around your mind and keep it there, if you are going to continue to subject yourself to her nastiness. That sounded like an order-yikes, sorry .

Setting up your ds for heightened disappointment at pick-up time is mean to your ds, not just you--proof she is toxic. Using a child that way, with no regard for the child's feelings (she may see him as an object to manipulate rather than a person with feelings): She probably enjoys setting up strife for others and sits back for the entertainment. Nothing makes TMSB more angry than people like this.

Detached necessity=your defense wall. Meaning detached from mil; for ds:
You may consider retraining or untraining ds-debrief him after each exposure to mil.
"Oh, ds is crying again-what is it this time? Too much sugar?----(rolling eyes)Whatever."

"Oh, ds is crying again-going home time suddenly catch you by surprise, again?" (to ds knowingly: We know the drill by now, don't we?)

TMSB rant over

You may try to tell your son that he will be able to tell when you are about to arrive, because "nanna" will be getting out the treats, etc. You may be able to (at some point depending on his age) tell him about 'when it is time to go home, ...it is time to go home-and 'nanna' can save the treat for next time. In other words, you can train him with another -YOUR- perspective. And have a treat waiting for him at home once in a while. That can be done, btw, without one negative word about mil...talk about dealing with schedules and he knows he has to go home with 'mom' at such and such time - no reason to fuss every time. I'd be inclined to think the more fussing that goes on, the less he should be subjected to the circumstance, not more.

I'll bet you can coach him into knowing what a clock's hands look like when it is about time to go home.

I do feel for you though. And with the precious newborn too. Is MIL watching dd as well?

"...the most loving environment..." may not in fact be with your MIL if she is brainwashing your son to not want to go home, to not like you, to prefer her company to yours, generally creating a big problem in your family dynamic. Point this out to your DH. Things may not be as they seem or as one would assume: Nursery is not as bad as we think, and "nanna's" is not as good as we think.

Are you paying Mil for keeping ds? Maybe all this crap from her is her reaping her reward?
It may be difficult to figure out what her motivation is coming from if it is not NPD micromanaging control neediness.

Middle Sister was my 'only friend' for so long (my completely dismissing DH!!! ) and she played that angle-nudging me to be a submissive, subordinate puppet. She probably figured she'd be my only 'help' with the baby as well. Well, let the world know I am doing just fine without her 'help' (dh is doing a whole lot more with this baby than when ds & dd1 were babies).

Take care
Hope you can get some sleep and be able to relax and try to stop labeling 'good mom'-'bad mom' .

Thanks TMSB- Im not doing too bad with dd at the moment just combining dd and ds at the same time..will take time and practice I guess. 3 year gap...and any advice from your good self would be welcomed

Glad your dh is helping...but you sound like such a dab hand at it all to me. Mine has been great. But as for this issue with his mum. He just doesnt see it. Makes me feel very alone.

I feel her gig (so to speak). Is the need to be needed. Absolute dependency is what she requires. As I said to DH, she has dealt with two dc's why not give me some tips on balancing the two,,,help me become independant in my new role as mum of two. But no...she sees another opportunity to swoop.
I do believe she wants to relive her happiest role (mother) through ds. I also think there was (hope/expectation) I'd have another boy, then her role reprisal would have been complete. But I do also believe she is just 'very' competetive 'a perfectionist' and wants to be NO 1. In hers sons and gc's world.

She 'used' to look after ds's cousin too and always slated SIL mothering skills to me and dh. I am ashamed to say I colluded in this and then saw the error of my ways. She no longer does this, but just because she doesnt state it any more doesnt mean she doesnt think it.

I did not think of the impact on ds...the way you described it. But I guess I just felt I was being paranoid.

I remember once she came here and as she was leaving in the car ds started to cry and so she stopped the car, got out and came back to hug him.
My own toxic mother (and as we know the toxic ones are experts in their own field) Said that when (my mother) was up looking after ds, mil rang her and wanted to meet up, which they did. But MIL made a point of abruptly leaving in the middle of the street which made ds howl and left my mum feeling very .

Tmsb- She has minded dd for a couple of hours for me to go to the drs...she cant do much more than this as dd is Bf. Which reminds me....when I said I would be B'fding dd she said 'Oh are you going to do all that again?'.

And no- we dont pay her- She would not accept payment. How could there be any strings attached if we did?

Currently I do feel that should I go back to work...she will have no childcare duties. Feel guilt for this over the extra expense it will incur and I dare say ds will not be 'as' happy as with nanna.
Gosh sorry its like the floodgates are open on this one now.

Smithfield - ((((hugs))))

Whatever you feel is okay.

Remember, no 1 rule, we are attracted to people like us, people who had a similar upbringing, remind us of someone else in our life. I don't think you are imagining things, too many things you have said ring loud ding dong bells for me! I feel there is some emotional blackmailing going on there, trying to make you feel bad esp about working. There really is no need for that. Or repeating 'I love you' over and over to ds until he says it to her first WTF?! Sorry...was being calm up til then...

I think you need to reconsider your options. Yes ds may prefer being at grandmas but if he is, she needs to play by your rules. From the sounds of her (oh boy does she sound like my mother!!) she may not take well to these boundries. And if she doesn't...GOTCHA! Toxic parent. If I was looking after my grandchild (if I have any or see them!) I would abide by dd/ds rules...if I could not, I would refuse to look after gc...as afterall what the parent wants is what they get. You cannot give a child two sets of rules, it leads to all sorts of confusion.

So for now, gather your thoughts (I know, they will be all over the shop at the moment!) and think 'what do I want my mil to do?' agree this with dh. Then get dh if neccessary to tell mil, maybe with you nodding at side if you feel okay with that, to present a united front. You cannot have two sets of parents.

Doing this will hopefully get dh on your side. And will hopefully get him to realise that his mother is not that keen on boundries...men generally work by logic not emotion...so if he makes reasonable requests known and they are disregarded...hopefully the penny will drop

I really don't think you are imagining things...my therapist says 'when someone is always nice, I wonder how their anger will come out?'. I think your mil is letting her anger out by getting ds to say 'I love you' first to her...and making you feel guilty about work etc...

Come back on to batter out your thoughts here if you need to before chatting to dh...write out what you may say...using 'i feel' 'I would like' 'when mil does x y z' statements...all calmly (ha ha!).

Also could you specify what makes your ds miserable/stressed? And then tell me the things you do that work for you both? I think your parental stick is beating you up again...

And remember...bringing up chidren is not one whole elephant...its just the trunk/foot/toenail...baby steps, one bit at a time...pick out one thing you do with ds that you don't like...(I critisise dd in front of other people and she knows ) and concentrate for 2 weeks on NOT doing it. And gradually it becomes habit...just one bit at a time, not all at once. So I'm not going to critisise dd now in front of her for 2 weeks (will do my best) what will you do?

Also remember we teach children by NOT being perfect, that would do nothing but make them feel like they could never achieve anything. By us being imperfect it lets them know that they dont' have to be perfect to be okay as people and that mistakes are there to be acknowledged and apologised for and to learn from...just by making mistakes and trying to learn from them you are setting him a good example You are GOOD ENOUGH.

And I'm off now...to finish my glass of wine...yep I've had one already hence its a bit rambly tonight!

Hi TMSB...hope you are doing well

Smithfield, it does sound like an unhealthy relationship your son has with his nana.

I felt very guilty as well having to go to work and sending my children to nursery full time (luckily I never had the "luxury" of being able to use grandparents), and not being a good enough parent when I was finally with them.

I realised that I came from a family which choses to only see the negative things in any given situation. Once I realised that I was just as negative as them I decided I wanted to be more positive and I started my own game of how many negatives have you turned in to a positive today.

For example when you send your son to nursery, focus on all the good things about it, and only talk about that (unless they are amazingly wrong and action needs to be taken). His friends, all the things he gets to do down there that he can't do at home, like waterplay, playing group games with his friends, make it his and your time when you walk down there with him playing little games of "how many yellow cars do you see" or the like. Focus on the fact that it will make him more sociable, and it will be easier for him to adapt to going to school.

It was so unnatural for me to begin with, and I still have to think about it, so I don't fall in to the negative trap again.

If you just can't find anything positive to say about your son going to your mother in law, I would not recommend you sending him to her that often.

Also if it is making you this miserable sending him over there, then it can't be good for you or your son.

But please remember that no matter what your son loves you.

Also whenever I tell my children of they call on their daddy because "daddy, mummy is being mean" and when daddy tells them of they call on me because "mummy, daddy is being mean". They will always call on the person who they think is going to give them what they want or let them do what they want to do.

(Please remember I am not very good with words, and nothing I write is meant to cause any offence to anybody, I am merely trying to help.)