Is he the problem and if he is, what can I do to help our relationship

[uptomuch]

TLDR - DH an absolute arse when we argue but perfect in all other areas. Should I put up with it?

We've been together for three years. Had a bumpy start but got ourselves sorted. Looking back, I think the foundations were laid then around the way we argue and now we can't undo it and I'm worried that I am staying in a really unhealthy relationship.

About 80% of the time, we have a great relationship. We are supportive of one another, respectful, good partnership and get on well.
However, if we have an argument, it goes down hill, and fast!
Today was the latest example. Did all the back to school stuff, was quite a nice day (no kids with us) and popped by McDonalds drive thru on the way home. Driving out, DH put his foot on the brake and a load of chips ended up on the floor. I said “FFS” (loudly) as was annoyed by the mess and made an ill judged poke at him for braking when he did (obviously braking can’t be helped). Really wasn’t anything major and was simply a reaction to a situation but still, wasn’t his fault and so not fair of me. Anyway, I asked him to pull over so I could clean up and he said no. He said he was driving and he would make the decisions and that it was my fault for “throwing” the chips on the floor. This then escalated beyond all recognition with him shouting that he was right about everything (yes - literally). Told me that I had “started it” by shouting at him and told me it was completely my fault and I should apologise and that he would keep shouting until I did.

So in and of itself, that’s a stupid argument where had I just said sorry and cleared up it would have gone away. Problem is, he gets so verbally aggressive and so shouty and dominant and entirely unwilling to accept that there would be another way of looking at things and it’s all so QUICK that I start to cry. And then I get told things like I’m pathetic and that I need to stop “whimpering”. And I KNOW this isn’t ok.
The only reason I am crying is because I have had my voice taken from me and I am now completely overwhelmed.
I genuinely don’t know if I need to change some of my behaviour because I’m
nitpicking or if he is the one who is unreasonable.
All our arguments are like this. They start off over tiny, inconsequential things, escalate to boiling point very quickly and then I get dominated and cry. BUT (importantly) most of the arguments are started by me.

I suppose I need to know if there is anything I can change and that it is reasonable for me to change or if it is just a bad idea to be in this relationship.

And to the LTB tribe - I hear you. But what I am genuinely interested in is whether there is an alternative way for me to manage these outbursts to support some more continuous harmony!

he isn’t abusive in other areas. He only ever does this when we argue. Again - I am banging the same old drum but he is supportive, empathetic, kind to me, my parents, his children, works hard etc etc. all the ‘basics’. He is only abusive when we argue

Do you realise what you're actually saying here? You're almost defending him by saying that he only abuses you if you disagree with him.

@watchkeys I am well aware of what I am saying, hence 'banging the same old drum'
It may sound like I am almost defending him because I AM almost defending him. I love him and I want the best for our relationship. I want both sides of this to be represented as fairly as I can. He doesn't shout at me when I disagree with him, he shouts when the situation has been pushed and escalated. I GENUINELY do not believe he wants to shout.

Don’t call posters ‘a hardened tribe’. How dismissive.

Your H is abusive and no, you can’t magic him to be different. And no, it’s not down to your ‘strong opinions’. Sounds like you have perfectly normal opinions with nothing out of the ordinary about them at all. His reactions are inappropriate and aggressive.

Stay with with bastard if you like - SWTB. Sure. But he is abusive and he won’t change.

I'm a bit of a yeller myself. What happens if you shout back at him?

It doesn't matter what you GENUINELY believe about what he wants to do.

He is not responsible for his own actions (in your opinion) and he is abusive towards you. That's it. It doesn't matter what causes it, it doesn't matter if you're a factor. It's not a healthy relationship, and you're not compatible.

All relationships have bits that feel like you're compatible, otherwise the two people wouldn't be together. A relationship can't be judged on how good it is when things are good, only on how bad it is when things are bad.

He is abusive. If you are abusive too, that doesn't mean you should stay, it means you should leave x2. But either way, your relationship has abuse in it, and so you need to get out.

@uptomuch First of all, I think you've handled most of the comments on this thread really well and very calmly (when other posters would have got aggressive or flounced off) so well done.

This side of you doesn't seem to reconcile with your more 'unreasonable' blunt, critical side that swears when your DP brakes (and when he looks at you, you push it further with the "well you braked comment"). I was trying to understand this difference so I went back and re-read your original post. And what hit me like a truck was this:

He said he was driving and he would make the decisions and that it was my fault for “throwing” the chips on the floor. This then escalated beyond all recognition with him shouting that he was right about everything (yes - literally). Told me that I had “started it” by shouting at him and told me it was completely my fault and I should apologise and that he would keep shouting until I did.

It doesn't matter what you said or how irritating it might have been. His response that you wrote above is abusive, pure and simple. This is who he is. Maybe he is only like this 20% of the time but 20% is a lot! Maybe you do provoke him with your comments but as an adult, he has agency and he could choose not to shout at you. He could choose not to keep shouting at you until you apologise. I know you don't want to hear it and you hope maybe if you can change, he might not get angry BUT HE IS AN ABUSIVE BULLY.

Do you really mean 20% of the time? His shouting is intimidating and horrible and scary to you, that's why you cry, and he won't back down. Initially, I was thinking, well, me and my husband used to have rows, but having read your initial post, it is bullying and not just heated voices in a fairly typical row which is equal- you provoked him in the mildest way and he berated you for ages in a very aggressive way. He said he would keep shouting til you apologised, this is intimidating. So what if you said FFS when the car lurched, this is a normal utterance to a surprise thing.

If you mean 20% of the time, that's a LOT of life to be upset/crying. If it was once every six months you had a big flare-up, that would be horrible but not the same as living with someone who is basically a bit angry a lot of the time.

Does he do this to the kids? Or in front of the kids? My guess is yes but you know him best.

I'm not a LTB advocate, I often think that people are quite unrealistic on here about typical relationship hurts and slights which are totally different than, say, in the workplace behaviour. But I would not have someone shouting like that at me in anger regularly- if someone saw you and him in the car, what would they see?

@watchkeys I suppose I have trouble with believing that any relationship is perfect and that every partner in every relationship has undesirable traits. I am also not one to write something off when I can see that while
I might not BE the problem, I am also not helping the situation. Yes, it is not my responsibility to help him to manage his abusive behaviour, I get that.
And I also get that abusive behaviour goes a bit further than not picking your socks up.
But this whole thread makes me feel a bit like if I don't acquiesce to everything that is being said, then I am a fool. And none of you know me well enough to draw that conclusion or any others.

That is a good point @Highdaysandholidays1
20% is a massive over estimate.
We might grumble at each other once or twice a fortnight but we only have a massive horrible row times a year or so. I don't know how much difference it makes when his behaviour is that shitty but i think the 20% figure came from when I was writing while angry

You asked for advice about what you can do to improve a relationship in which your partner is abusive to you. The answer is nothing, and nor should you try. The only answer is to leave. This is the widely accepted way to deal with abuse.

Nobody has said anything about you being a fool.

And no, he never does it to the kids. Ever. He is calm and kind and talks through their upset with them. I could count on one hand the amount of times he's shouted at them in the three years we've been together. He is far more patient with them than I am.

Another thing to think about is that being told you are pathetic and 'whimpering' is a form of contempt. John Gottman's work is very helpful to see what the destructive forms of relationships are- he calls them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and spitting up and divorcing are linked (scientifically) to their presence in relationships. One is contempt, and one is criticism and both these are present in his response to you. The good news as such is Gottman has written books on how to work on these issues, which if you feel that's the way forward. It takes more than one person to change though.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

@Watchkeys no, no one has said that. It's the tone in delivery of a lot of what is being said.
If you believe this to be abuse then I assume you believe me to be vulnerable/a victim. And I find this a strange way to communicate with someone in this position.

How you choose to take what's being said to you is up to you. People are giving you the advice you asked for, in their own tone. That's their gubbins. If you don't like it, you don't have to take any notice.

This, again, seems a confusion of responsibility. You do you. If you don't like it, don't listen. No use in calling responses 'strange' or not liking the 'tone'. Adult abuse victims don't need a different tone from anybody else, because they are adults, not 'special delicate people'.

There is so much that is disturbing about this that I had to quote it entirely. You are expressing a lot of problematic thinking that arise out of your taking a very codependent stance towards him. Even your pro forma attempts to take the blame or take responsibility for your part are a problem because they cause you to try to shrink yourself into a smaller space so as not to trigger him.

You treat him as though he is the victim and you—if you are not saving him or the marriage—are the persecutor. These are, if course, the three points of the drama triangle and as you rocket around them trying to solve the problem you will find yourself too busy and distracted to admit what all of us are telling you: you can not fix his behavior. You can not change the behavior of a person who does not intend to change.

A good start would not be to shout about him putting your safety first by braking (which is why the chips went on the floor).

Would you rather he just crashes into things so the chips don’t get dropped?
Hint: you’ll probably lose more chips in a crash!

@Deathbyfluffy

Hint: you've missed the point by about 3 light years.

Christ - it's one extreme to the other @Deathbyfluffy

Whenever I hear someone say, he's great until we argue... I want to bang my head against a wall.

Everyone's great when you are getting along. You judge a life partner by how they treat you when they're fed up or tired or drunk or furious. A longterm relationship requires trust and respect (and this is why you are hesitating to apologise even when at fault - not that you were this time). If he can't treat you with respect, even when you disagree or something bad happens, then what does it matter that he's great when he's happy?

Shit is going to happen. It's how you deal with it that matters. And he deals with it by hurling abuse at you and humiliating you.

okay, I'll be Switzerland if that helps

You've mentioned that you criticise his parenting and how he copes with his ex wife

does his management of these things affect you?

Yes @EmmaEmerald it probably does.
Doesn't excuse what he's doing but if I'm not telling him how I feel about the decisions he's made, he can see in my face that I am thinking it.
And while if i don't say anything he will respect that and not prod at me there is still tension

An excellent and well made point, @Fizzology
Just unfortunate that it applies to me!

You've only been together for three years & I assume from what you said that there are DC on both sides but why do you put up with this? I've been married over 30 years and am absolutely not a 'smug married', I fully accept neither of us are perfect and if we met today we would probably never end up together but whilst we do have differences of opinion we fully respect each other. We've just had a disagreement over an item of news that is getting a lot of publicity.. we can listen to each other, and agree to differ. There's no animosity or hard feelings and certainly no rudeness or heated rows.
How would you life look like without this man around .. ? Sounds like it would be a lot calmer.

Ok, so.

If dh was driving and the same thing happened, I would also have said FFS. He would have also taken offence. I have in the past criticised his driving, so that would have been thrown into the mix. We would certainly have gotten grumpy with each other.

But no one would be shouting. One or the other would apologise, recognise nothing was hurt but the chips, I would say I really appreciate that he's driving today and that can happen to anyone. He'd offer to pull over and we'd clear up the mess. We'd de-escalate.

I'm going to stick my neck on the line here OP. My DH is a shouter too.

Generally and I mean probably 95% or more of the time we're laughing and having a great time as we have the same daft sense of humour but the odd time something triggers me, we end up having an almighty row. It starts out as nothing, I'm not a shouter just blunt and very to the point but because he is very placid and laid back most of the time when he blows he bloody blows. You've asked if there's anything you could change...
Say for example when you dropped the chips, could you not have laughed it off? maybe we're just silly but I wouldn't have said FFS or if I did it'd most likely be at the thing that made him brake hard in a jokey way. It's nothing really to drop a few chips on the floor.

I've learnt over the years to lighten up and don't sweat the small stuff and it's amazing how little we argue now as there's nothing to escalate from if you see what I mean. I'm not saying walking on eggshells or daren't voice an opinion, more just not getting riled up by the things that don't really matter.

*.... gone into hiding for the foreseeable