Is he the problem and if he is, what can I do to help our relationship

[uptomuch]

TLDR - DH an absolute arse when we argue but perfect in all other areas. Should I put up with it?

We've been together for three years. Had a bumpy start but got ourselves sorted. Looking back, I think the foundations were laid then around the way we argue and now we can't undo it and I'm worried that I am staying in a really unhealthy relationship.

About 80% of the time, we have a great relationship. We are supportive of one another, respectful, good partnership and get on well.
However, if we have an argument, it goes down hill, and fast!
Today was the latest example. Did all the back to school stuff, was quite a nice day (no kids with us) and popped by McDonalds drive thru on the way home. Driving out, DH put his foot on the brake and a load of chips ended up on the floor. I said “FFS” (loudly) as was annoyed by the mess and made an ill judged poke at him for braking when he did (obviously braking can’t be helped). Really wasn’t anything major and was simply a reaction to a situation but still, wasn’t his fault and so not fair of me. Anyway, I asked him to pull over so I could clean up and he said no. He said he was driving and he would make the decisions and that it was my fault for “throwing” the chips on the floor. This then escalated beyond all recognition with him shouting that he was right about everything (yes - literally). Told me that I had “started it” by shouting at him and told me it was completely my fault and I should apologise and that he would keep shouting until I did.

So in and of itself, that’s a stupid argument where had I just said sorry and cleared up it would have gone away. Problem is, he gets so verbally aggressive and so shouty and dominant and entirely unwilling to accept that there would be another way of looking at things and it’s all so QUICK that I start to cry. And then I get told things like I’m pathetic and that I need to stop “whimpering”. And I KNOW this isn’t ok.
The only reason I am crying is because I have had my voice taken from me and I am now completely overwhelmed.
I genuinely don’t know if I need to change some of my behaviour because I’m
nitpicking or if he is the one who is unreasonable.
All our arguments are like this. They start off over tiny, inconsequential things, escalate to boiling point very quickly and then I get dominated and cry. BUT (importantly) most of the arguments are started by me.

I suppose I need to know if there is anything I can change and that it is reasonable for me to change or if it is just a bad idea to be in this relationship.

And to the LTB tribe - I hear you. But what I am genuinely interested in is whether there is an alternative way for me to manage these outbursts to support some more continuous harmony!

Also, @HundredMilesAnHour I think you're approach is probably a lot more helpful than most. Instead of writing him off, you're at least willing to critically (constructively) examine MY behaviour as well

Aha. This is the bit I was looking for. The key.

"I know he feels that I don't take responsibility for my actions."

That's it. And you both think the same about it. He believes that it is your actions which are responsible for him being an abusive tyrant, and it is you who causes him to start the shouting. He says he will keep on shouting until you apologise. In other words, he will keep on punishing you until you say sorry.

I bet he doesn't behave like that at work, or down the pub.

And you are asking us whether there is something you need to do to help the relationship? What do you expect us to say?

Yes - he is an adult who is responsible for his own reactions. But he does not have the skills to do this

Why not? What's so special about him that he gets to behave in a shitty way towards you, and you have to over-look it?

Why do you need to know if it's abuse? Does it need to be abuse before you'd leave? If so, why? If not, what difference does it make?

I can see he might have been grated by the fact you swore at him, and chips were on the floor because he braked, which I’m making the presumption here that he braked for a good reason ie pedestrian in the road. Not to take the piss.

but this is where the situation changed for me. He brakes, chips drop, you swear, he could have said ‘sorry but I didn’t want to run over that kid, there no need to swear’ you could have responded with, ‘yes sorry of course, I was just frustrated I dropped the chips’

end of -that’s how a caring couple would have dealt with it.

you shouldn’t have sworn at him about the dropped chips but from then on in he bacame totally unreasonable and abusive. Why on Earth couldn’t/wouldn’t he stop the car to pick them up. Absolutly no need for the name calling or the saying he’ll continue to yell at you until you apologise.

for me it wouldn’t matter he was nice 80% of the time because 20% is too much. I’d leave.

Do you have the financial means to go to couples counselling together and would he go if you talked to him about it? If your relationship is otherwise good, but you struggle to argue constructively and he is not controlling or abusive in other areas in your relationship then I think this is you only chance.
Could work wonders though! Good luck! X

@EmmaMY Joint counselling is a really bad idea in an abusive relationship and is strongly discouraged.

@uptomuch Yes, I think he is abusive. This sentence you wrote is why:

he gets so verbally aggressive and so shouty and dominant and entirely unwilling to accept that there would be another way of looking at things

I can understand how your behaviour might provoke him at times (and the crying would really wind me up personally) BUT his reaction is abusive. It doesn't matter what you try to change because you can't change him. He doesn't seem to show any awareness that he's a huge part of the problem. I am clearly a grumpy cow given that the swearing and crying would irritate me but no way would I shout at you. A mature adult can see that only makes things worse.

I really think you're just not compatible. And I don't think you can fix that. You have self-awareness of the role you're playing in this but it doesn't sound like he has any at all. And his lack of self-awareness means you can't resolve this with therapy. He needs to admit that he's at fault here before you could even consider moving forward and that sounds impossible for him.

But is it abusive?

Yes. He is abusive. And as abusers often do, he is blaming you for making him lose his temper, and you believe him when he says it's your fault. You just can't see it yet.

You say you made an “ill judged poke at him for breaking”. Can you be more specific? What did you actually say or do?? To be clear, nothing at all ever excuses abusive behaviour but you are very keen to defend him and I’m wondering if you were, in your opinion, a bit harsh?

He is abusing you, and telling you it is because you made him do it.

You could try being cautious around expressing any opinions, needs or wants but that's called walking on eggshells and is him managing you, not you managing him.

Ok op, since you’ve asked.. you shouldn’t be shouting at someone whilst they’re driving. This is something to address. Are you quick to get stressed out and shout or lose your temper? You say you are opinionated, have you tried to address this? Do you take a multi-perspective approach? Do you question if there is another way to look at it? Perhaps you’re blunt and you could read up on communication skills. But your DH needs to work on this too.

You are what you are. Why are you trying to find solutions to these kinds of issues? Does he look for solutions when you talk about it. Does he have any emotional intelligence?

Someone up thread wrote this:
“Stop hunting for fault in yourself. We all have faults, and we can all bring out the worst in someone. The trick is to stay away from people who respond badly to you.”

I am very forthright in my relationship & could be like you but I’ve learned to step back and control which arguments are worth the fall out. My chap loves to have the last word & prolong a row so I’ve learned to recognise that and I stop myself engaging or I change the subject. I don’t allow him to goad me. Seems to work, most times. He runs out of steam.

If you don't want to LTB, then try to find a way forward which fits easier emotionally with you but, having said that, easier said than done esp if he gets shouty, narky & abusive.

No easy answers for you OP but perhaps some of it lies with how you respond to him in the first place? Try to develop a spidery sense of where an argument is leading & do what you can to shut him down? (I’ll probably get flamed for that idea.🙄)

I left. Eventually. My ex and I used to argue a lot and I always ended up crying. Life was so much better when we broke up! Now in a lovely relationship with someone who has never made me cry once

Try to develop a spidery sense of where an argument is leading & do what you can to shut him down

No flaming from me, but anybody who is trying to shut their partner down is in the wrong relationship.

Not for you to manage him- he's an adult. Adults manage themselves.

He needs to learn to manage his own aggression. He should not be blaming you for his own inability to control his temper.

He wants you to think that the 20% shit part of the relationship is all your fault. He will never accept any culpability. Abusers never do. He will always blame you for 'starting it' and making him angry.

That is no way to live. Do you know what my exH used to say? "Why do you do it? Why? Why do you keep making me angry? If you didn't make me angry I wouldn't have to hit you, would I?".

@uptomuch you're talking yourself (and trying to justify) into walking on eggshells. You're entitled to say whatever you want without being shouted at.

Sounds like you both need to grow a bit. Was it really called for throwing your toys out over some spilt fries?

He's also entitled to shout what he wants whenever he wants. There's no law against disrespect. You have to decide if you want what he gives you, not who's right or wrong.

What do you mean by an "ill judged poke" at him? Verbal? Physical? You seem to have glossed over the detail of that, but it could have some relevance around how you communicate.
It sounds like you are both determined to be right, maybe even when there clearly is no right, perhaps 2 wrongs that caused it? Not holding onto chips well, combined with poor driving?
But the escalation and how he is is OTT. Maybe something to discuss in counselling before giving up on things? Other options meantime could be to try grey rock. You say you stand up for yourself, however, end up coming off worse and crying. Try going silent maybe? It's harder to argue and maintain shouting at someone who does not say anything back. Not that it's your job to manage him, but if you really don't want to ltb, you could try changing the pattern by behaving differently- if nothing else, it may confuse him.

He is abusive. End of. Your behaviour is neither here nor there. To be honest it’s more likely you behave the way you do because of the unhealthy dynamic in the relationship.

Trying to help/appease doesn’t work as so many of us found out. Do the Freedom Programme, even online and start to work on helping yourself. Not him.

He's done a number on you hasn't he? Really got you believing that not only is it your fault he abuses you, but that you probably deserve it.

Maybe you were snappy. Maybe you are overly critical. Maybe you do nitpick. All those things are really annoying. None of them justify him screaming verbal abuse at you. Not even a little bit.

If it had been his boss, or a friend, or his mother in the car with him and they'd gone "oh for fucks sake" when the chips fell on the floor, do you think he'd have screamed at them in the same way?

Sorry, dinner etc got in the way. Everyone fed now.

I wanted to answer some of the points and see what comes of people’s reactions to them…

@temporaryname158 - absolutely. If I hadn’t said anything, he wouldn’t have grumbled and I wouldn’t have then escalated. But yes, we could both have responded to each other differently.

@emmamy - he isn’t abusive in other areas. He only ever does this when we argue. Again - I am banging the same old drum but he is supportive, empathetic, kind to me, my parents, his children, works hard etc etc. all the ‘basics’. He is only abusive when we argue. So yes - counselling could work.

@hundredmilesanhour - he does have self awareness and will acknowledge that he plays as much a part in t he problem as I do. But where I can specifically state where I cause the problem, he does not seem to be able to do that. Or at least does not realise the gravity.

@buildingthefuture - I can’t actually remember exactly what I said but it would have been something along the lines of me going “FFS”, him looking at me with a raised eyebrow and me saying “well you did brake”. So stupid, but not terrible.

@merapi - at no point has he told me that I make him do it. I am the one asking if I am contributing to the issue. He is able to acknowledge that his reactions are his to own and does not blame me for them. He does, however, fail entirely to realise the impact his shouting and words have.

@thecatinthetwat - I’m not quick to lose my temper, I am opinionated and I do force those opinions on him sometimes, but he is similar. I’m not very good at taking a multi perspective approach. I find that because he wants to force his view, I end up doing the same. Yes - I am blunt.
So whilst I absolutely do not believe his reactions and behaviours are a proportional or fair response, I am asking these questions because I am not blameless.

@stratocumulus - I could absolutely make this whole thing go away if I didn’t push arguments. He is not quick to anger UNLESS I am already being unreasonable at which point he has zero patience. He is grateful for all the things I do do and tells me that he is thankful for these things. He is pretty low on the emotional intelligence scale, though.

@merapi - he does accept responsibility and is aware that his contributions make things very difficult. He knows that he is dominant and inflammatory and apologised for this. However, things don’t change.

And while I genuinely appreciate the fact that so many of you have come to offer comment - why else would I have posted - I can't help but notice that in some of the responses (not all) there almost seems to be a tone of glee. Like another abusive man has been exposed and the world of mumsnet can sleep peacefully knowing that another woman is being pushed towards leaving them.

And I am not saying that that is the wrong thing to do, at all. But when you are all so disgusted with his behaviour, some empathy and support towards the person that you think has been treated so badly wouldn't go amiss.