Can't handle DH's passive aggressive/indirect communication

[Goldmarsbar]

Just wondering whether this situation is normal.

I've been with my DH for 25 years. Two DC. DH has always been a low mood, glass half empty type of guy.

Over the years, I have also realised that our styles of communication are totally different. I am much more direct, I will express how I feel at the time, and don't tend to be in moods or hold resentment. (I have had to do a lot of work on myself over the years as I used to get in moods etc, but I don't any more) However DH does not tend to express how he feels so is often in a mood with me, or holding a grudge as I have not guessed what he wants me to do or how he feels. And then he sometimes speaks to me angrily in a loud voice, or storms around etc.

I have asked him so many times to please work on his style of communication - I find it so painful and upsetting. I have said to him that I don't mind at all how he feels about something but if he expresses it at the time, I can deal with it, rather than him being in a mood and it coming out in an angry outburst later.

He just says that we communicate differently and that he is not able to communicate directly, nor does he want to. He denies that it is passive aggressive and just says that it's different.

On the other hand, he can be kind and thoughtful and a caring dad. I have thought about leaving many times because of the passive aggression, but having mulled over it for a couple of years I'm ashamed to say I somehow don't feel strong enough to. I am on minimum wage and finances would be very difficult. I would feel guilty and heartbroken for the children if I broke up the family unit.

I have spoken to some friends about this and a few also say that their husbands are moody and can get angry, but they just tend to brush it off as "it's just what men can be like" or they try to keep busy and out of their DH's way. So maybe I am unusual/too sensitive - I have tried to not let it affect me, but I find it very hard.

I know life can't be perfect - we have lovely DC, we're OK financially, live in a nice home and DH can be nice for maybe 50-60% of the time. Maybe I am expecting too much from a relationship?

His style of communication doesn't sound constructive at all.

What are these things making him unhappy/grumpy that he expected you to guess? If it's that you've dropped ketchup on the floor and not cleaned it up again - this might be a 'you' problem. If he expects you to guess that some particular aspect of a DC's behaviour is driving him up the wall, this is a him problem and he needs to communicate this in a sensible adult manner.

Also, on the 50-60% of the time he's nice, are you creeping round desperately trying to jolly him along and keep him happy?

@CamomileCream the things that make him unhappy/ moody usually boil down to him feeling he has to do things he doesn't want to do, including spending money. Eg we were on holiday last week - at one point we had been out for lunch and were walking along the street. I said that I wanted to pop into a supermarket that we were passing to buy a pack of cards as I thought it would be nice to play cards with the DC during the rest of the holiday. He didn't say anything so we all went into the supermarket and I bought the cards. He was then moody and I found out later it was because he didn't want to go into a busy supermarket and didn't want to spend money on a pack of cards.

Another example - on the last day of our holiday we had to leave our villa in the morning and had some time to kill before we needed to go to the airport. DH suggested going to look round an art gallery. We parked the car and walked around trying to find this gallery but couldn't work out where it was. There was nobody around to ask, literally no one as the temperature was 40°C and there was no one else mad enough to be walking around in that heat! One of our DCs was getting tired, and I was developing a migraine. DH then said we should drive and park somewhere else and see if we could find the gallery from a different direction. I suggested that maybe we should just go to the airport as at least it would be cool there and the DC could get a cold drink. At this point they weren't bothered about going to the gallery. DH said "Fine, I'm not a dictator, I'm not going to force everyone to go there". When we got to the airport he was in a mood and said to me in a really angry tone "You didn't actually want to go to the gallery did you? I wish you would just admit it. Just admit it". I was really shocked as he seemed so angry with me, and the point was that I had actually wanted to go, it was just so hot and we couldn't find it, so I thought it would be best not to in the end.

We had been planning this holiday for ages as we hadn't been abroad for years. We had agreed on this and talked about it for ages. However when I was going through the research and booking process he was really moody and angry, and kept putting obstacles in the way. Then it finally came out in an angry outburst that he didn't actually want to go abroad, he wanted to go on a holiday in the UK, but of course his wishes weren't considered. I was really taken aback, as we had jointly agreed the holiday abroad. I said to him that we had promised the DC for years, that was a big reason why we were doing it. If I sat and thought about what "I" wanted for a holiday, the one we were booking may not be my first choice, but I was looking at it from a family point of view, not a personal one.

So I think it's usually because of something I have/ haven't done. But the fact is, I am not perfect, and if he doesn't tell me at the time how he's feeling how am I supposed to guess?

And re me creeping around trying to keep him happy, yes that does resonate. I used to ask him to do things eg help with housework/ garden etc but I don't anymore as he used to get so moody about it. But he can actually be nice/ kind sometimes, that's why I feel so conflicted about it. He's not often moody with the DC, just me.

I'm just trying to find a way to live in this situation. I don't know what the answer is though - we've even been to marriage counselling and individual counselling and it hasn't made any difference.

Hmm he can't be open at all can he! You are clear and simple, he takes it and runs with it!

I hate to say this but if you’ve been to individual and marriage counselling, you’ve explained how you feel and been very clear I’m not sure there’s much more you can do. This is obviously just who he is.

You say you’re trying to find a way to live with it but why? You’d very likely have a happier life on your own with the children or with a new partner who isn’t miserable. I don’t mean to sound dismissive when I say that, I know when you have children and concerns about finances etc it’s not easy to end things but why should you find a way to ‘put up’ with this for your one precious life? You don’t owe him a relationship or marriage when he’s being horrible, causing an atmosphere and doing nothing to put any effort in from his side.

You can’t change a person and you can’t make a relationship work on your own.

@Specso you're totally right, this is who he is. I just don't think he's going to change.

I think my dilemma is partly the thought of the difficulties ahead if we were to split up, and partly because he is sometimes nice and kind. I feel I do still love him, which is confusing. So then I start to think, well no one's perfect, maybe I just need to put up with his moods/anger, and focus on the good things.

Maybe I'm getting too deep here, but I felt similarly about my dad. My dad was self centred, moody and angry and left our family when I was a teenager. He never stayed in contact. But throughout it all, I felt that I really loved him, and wanted to see him, however badly he'd treated me. This is not quite the same as my DH is in no way as bad as my Dad was, but I do wonder if I have a tendency to get attached to people and feel unable to break away from them, even if they are not particularly beneficial in my life.

I'm actually booked onto a women's assertiveness course in September, I hope that may start to clarify things for me.

Maybe I'm getting too deep here, but I felt similarly about my dad. My dad was self centred, moody and angry and left our family when I was a teenager. He never stayed in contact. But throughout it all, I felt that I really loved him, and wanted to see him, however badly he'd treated me. This is not quite the same as my DH is in no way as bad as my Dad was, but I do wonder if I have a tendency to get attached to people and feel unable to break away from them, even if they are not particularly beneficial in my life.

I think you've actually nailed it here. You've just successfully analysed why you respond in the way that you do.

The question now is: What do you want to do about it?

Just to be absolutely clear: Your husband is awful. He is a dreadful, horrible human being. I say that because he knows his way of (not) communicating is dysfunctional, and yet he refuses to do anything to change it and expects you and the DC to walk on eggshells around him to accommodate his moods. The supermarket and museum incidents, looked at from the outside, look like him deliberately setting you up to fail. This is so far from OK it isn't even funny, and it will affect your DC as they get older, develop a voice and therefore increase their capacity to get on his nerves.

If I were you I would do everything possible to increase my earning capacity, squirrel away money and quietly get the ducks in a row with a view to leaving this relationship, and please do everything you can to break this mindset of pleasing dysfunctional men that you have learned from your father.

The course sounds like a really good idea.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with staying positive, wanting to see the best in people and even still loving someone when they’ve hurt you. All these things are positive traits in you.

The problem is you’ll never get your needs met unless you’re with someone who wants to meet them. Many people stay in relationships when it’s ‘ok’. You get along most of the time, you do love them etc even when deep down you know it isn’t right and they don’t make you feel the way you need to feel. You’ve told him, asked him and encouraged him to see things need to change but he hasn’t made any changes.

I believe it boils down to the kind of person you are. Whether you’re more practical or emotional. I was in a marriage that wasn’t too bad. He’s a nice man (we still get along even after the divorce) we didn’t argue and he provided a comfortable life. Many people probably thought I was mad to give it up but I knew if I didn’t I’d wake up in 10 years feeling completely dead inside. I knew he loved me but his hobbies always came first, he didn’t make time for us to spend quality time, he wasn’t very physically or verbally affectionate and I didn’t feel passionately about him nor him about me. I’m a very emotional person so in the end I knew this wasn’t the right man for me even though I’d been certain he was when I married him and I did have love and respect for him.

Someone more practical and less emotional would have stayed in my position but that was my choice and my truth. You have to really think about what you want from life and your relationship and whether a life with him exactly as he is now will be fulfilling and happy for you. Try not to people please and settle which is not the same as being selfish and just throwing someone away or not making an effort. You’ve already done that with counselling and trying to talk with him over and over. Don’t put it on yourself for not trying hard enough. Like I said, it takes both people making the effort.

@Goldmarsbar What did you learn in counseling OP?
It does sound like a communication problem.
What did your therapist say and why wasn't your DP able to listen/ understand?

I question @pointythings ability to pass judgment on your DP and be so sure that he is 'a horrible human being' from such a short message.
Lots of people are moody on holidays or when out of their element.
Maybe your DP has other problems / worries right now and is thoughtlessly taking them out on you.

I don't have any answers for you but can definitely relate to the
' party pooper' DH. It does seem quite common. Maybe Pointythings could elaborate how and why being a moody person can justify breaking up an otherwise happy family? Surely there is another less radical solution ?

I have asked him so many times to please work on his style of communication - I find it so painful and upsetting. I have said to him that I don't mind at all how he feels about something but if he expresses it at the time, I can deal with it, rather than him being in a mood and it coming out in an angry outburst later.

He just says that we communicate differently and that he is not able to communicate directly, nor does he want to. He denies that it is passive aggressive and just says that it's different.

@Whataretalkingabout did you read the above part of the OP above at all? This is what I was referring to in my post. OP's husband knows his communication is dysfunctional and has completely refused to address it.

That is reason enough for my statement and I stand by it. Too many shitty men get away with behaving like this.

50-60% of the time 'being nice' is not enough.

No one's perfect, and if he's mostly nice with an occasional bad mood then fine - but being horrible half the time is too much to live with.

Practically I agree there is nothing you can do here. He does sound horrible- being moody rather than explaining the problem isn't a communication style, it's being a moody bastard. Maybe he doesn't feel like he can communicate (which I think is a bit sad after years of marriage and kids, to not even be able to say 'I don't want to go to the supermarket actually') and that's fine. But if he can't realise that that's completely on him, and that means he will end up going to the supermarket, and he has to accept the consequences of going ans stop himself from grumpiness for hours caused by his own lack of speaking up, then that's just abusive in my opinion.

The fact he knows his actions, that he can control, is making you miserable and doesn't even want to try and change, and counselling doesn't work, means there isn't much hope to be honest. I think I'd tell him each time he was acting like a child and I was going to ignore him until he could use his grown up words, and make plans to leave him to be honest.

My husband sounds exactly like yours, it's so exhausting. I've had enough and I've started to really call him out on it. When I book something I say are you sure about this, if I book it you have agreed. I don't want your passive aggressive shit when we get there. I do this with lots of things. It's effort but I've been doing it for 6 months now and it is starting to have a bit of an effect. I ask very direct questions too. So, for example. I've chosen here to eat, are you happy with this? Is you aren't say now. If we go in and you tell me you didn't want to eat here I will be really annoyed/upset as I've double checked with you.
I've told him I won't second guess what he says. So if the words come out of his mouth I'm believing the words and will hold him accountable. I will not analyse if that is really what you mean.
It's so hard. If he huffs and puffs I say loudly what's your problem? If he says nothing I say well tell your face that please. If you tell me it's nothing, I believe it is nothing. If it turns out to be something that is your problem and I won't be blamed. Do not bring up what you think I've done wrong later.
I do think if he doesn't address it over the next few months it will be a deal breaker.

@pointythings yes, I think I am going to start to look at my options financially etc - I have even been thinking I might see a lawyer as a starting point. At least then I would know what sort of position I would be in should I decide to separate - even if it is some time in the future.

That's interesting when you said about DH's way of communicating being dysfunctional and him refusing to do anything to change it - I suppose I had always thought that maybe he can't change as his brain doesn't work like that, and he didn't learn to communicate like that. I have even felt sorry for him a lot of the time, as it almost seemed that he didn't know what he thought or felt. But I guess if he put the work in, he could change, even a bit. It's just that he doesn't want to put the work in.

@Goldmarsbar he absolutely could change the way he communicates, if he wanted to. He could look into counselling to work out where this dysfunctional communication style is coming from (probably has family roots). He could help himself make family life better. If he genuinely cared, that is what he would do.

Instead he blames you and the DC.

I wish you all the luck in the world steadily digging your way out of this.

My dhs behaviour definitely stems from his family dynamics. He's never really be allowed to voice his wants or needs as his mother is a narcissist. If you say anything to her she cuts you off as his brother has proved.

@Specso That's really helpful to hear what you said about either being a more emotional or practical person. I am definitely a more emotional person too - very sensitive to other people's moods and really valuing emotional connection. I am sure that someone who was more practical and less bothered about emotional connection may find my DH easier to live with than I do. Really appreciate you sharing your experience, and your words and hope your life is now fulfilling and happy for you.

@Whataretalkingabout Marriage counselling seemed to help in the short term, as anything that cropped up could be discussed in the session. What would normally happen is that after a while, DH would see/admit that he was being unreasonable (usually after reflection/pointing from the therapist), and then the air would be cleared. However, almost as soon as therapy finished, he reverted back to the default position of communicating passive aggressively and refusing to take responsibility or apologise. It seems such a deep rooted behaviour.

I know what you mean about some people being moody on holidays etc, however those were just recent examples from last week, my DH is on and off moody all the time.

@discomoves I'm sorry you're having to deal with a similar situation, I really relate. It is totally exhausting. I have actually tried in the past what you say you are now doing, eg checking and double checking each time if DH is sure about decisions etc so he can't then moan and complain later. I only manage to stick to it for a few days at a time though, then forget - that's brilliant that you've managed to keep it up for six months and you're seeing results, although I'm sure it is bloody tiring.

I actually think that my DH will not fundamentally change unless he really realises what his behaviour is like, and actually WANTS to change - up until that point I think he will always blame me on some level for "making" him have to change.

That's really interesting about your DH's mother being a narcissist - my DH's mother is also a narcissist. As he was growing up, the world revolved around his mum, and he was never allowed to express his feelings or needs. His Dad was also repressed and passive aggressive, so there's that as well.

But isn’t the point that he isn’t communicating? You are always expected to guess what he’s thinking, and then you are ‘punished’ when you don’t or can’t read his mind. That’s not a different form of communication, it’s a failure to communicate at all.

My DH is the same. No matter what I do I am in the wrong as the answer is always the opposite. I am always trying to change my approach, the way I ask him, my words, my tone, my timings. And none have ever worked. I stopped asking him to do things because he either got angry, sabotaged it or outright lied and never did it.

According to womens aid and refuge and various GPs I am in an abusive relationship. That is why nothing I do ever works.

Thanks @Goldmarsbar OP for answering my question. Interesting revelations by @discomoves and yourself about you both having a Narc inlaw and another who is repressed and PA. I see even more similarities now than I would like to admit in my own relationship.

@BadGranny brings up a highly relevant point about existing communication problems in this type of partnership.

Lack of communication because of repressed needs, manipulating the situation to blame the DW for whatever is upsetting; lack of accepting personal responsibility for behavior which makes any kind of change impossible, incapable of apology, then reverts to sulking, stone-walling, silence. The classic circle of abuse .
These people seem highly insecure and incapable of self- reflection.

So does that mean they are narcissistic and there is no hope?

It really does help to understand one's situation. But maybe the only thing that truly matters is how you feel about your relationship, OP and whether your needs are being met and can you go on living this way?

I bet he’s not like this with friends or colleagues.
So you are emotionally sensitive-possibly due to being brought up with an angry DF, walking on eggshells etc
He is emotionally stunted and unable to express his anger due to narcissistic DM.

Somehow you need to call him out whenever you feel upset by anything he says or does. As the previous poster described, but warn him you will want to separate if this can’t be resolved. And hope for change .

It's just that he doesn't want to put the work in

You can't make it work on your own, @Goldmarsbar . If he doesn't want to try, he's essentially choosing not to find a way to help you feel better. And he hasn't even got the courage to say it straight.

He is not your dad. You are not a child. Take responsibility for yourself and your kids: you are an adult. Work out what you want, and ask him for it, clearly and calmly. If he chooses not to, he chooses not to be your partner any more. Demonstrate to your kids that leaving an unhappy relationship is the healthy thing to do. They will replicate any example you set. You mentioned your father; are you replicating your mum's relationship with him?

It might help him to read about the difference between ask and guess culture. He is very firmly in guess culture (as is common for Brits), and it's exhausting and incomprehensible for everyone else who can't pick up on the extremely oblique hints.

Do you want your kids to grow up feeling the same way you did? Do you want them to think this is an acceptable way to treat a partner?