what is a ‘Nice Guy’?

[gemsandmilk]

I’ve seen this used a few times in a derogatory way. Is it a man who wants to act nice for other reasons? Could you explain?

It's a man who consciously behaves in a 'nice' way towards women to elicit a desired response. And he feels he deserves rewarding due to having done so. It's not borne of being a decent person and it isn't genuinely good behaviour.

They become quite angry when you don't keep up your end of their imagined bargain.

Men who don't see women as fully autonomous beings with their own needs, wants, desires, thoughts and opinions. But empty vessels who can be coded to be receptive to meeting a man's needs if they use set patterns of behaviour or certain words.

It is the woman's fault/flaw (in their eyes) when it doesn't work.

Really worried I’m dating one of these. I’d love to hear any insights/experience of it. Thanks @GreyCarpet

I’d see it more as a man who vocally prides himself on not being some kind of PUA/active misogynist, like he should get extra brownie points/female attention/sex for not being an active asshole.

It’s less about being a nice person who happens to be male, it’s the above, with a side order of bitter mutterings about ‘women not liking nice guys, only bad boys, so why do I bother?’

https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/identifying-abuse/the-frightening-roles-abusers-can-play

Read about "Mr sensitive"

My partner knows I like candles. I also like wood fires. He bought me a candle scented like wood fire because of the above and because and it came in a black jar. He thought I'd like it and wanted to see the look on my face 🤷🏻‍♀️

We went out that night and bumped into a single man we know. This single man is a 'nice guy'. Said candle was mentioned in conversation.

'Nice guy's' response was, "Does that work then? I've heard candles work. I'll have to try that!"

Work? Well, yes, if you light them they 'work'. What he meant was, was my boyfriend able to manipulate a specific desired response from me by gifting me a candle? Had he had 'success' by using a certain set of behaviours?

My boyfriend was . He just thought I'd like the candle.

Boyfriend - decent man.
Nice guy we know - creepy and manipulative.

as above

a self proclaimed "nice guy" is generally a manipulative, immature sack of manure who views every act of potential kindness as means to an end

they generally feel entitled and have never once in their life done something nice for someone else if they didnt hope to gain something from it

their only reason to speak to women is to sleep with them

Yes, so interesting. I think the man I’m seeing might be down the very subtle end of the scale. Lots of close female friends, seemingly great relationships with exes…. but doesn’t seem that nice to me sometimes? can’t quite put my finger on it

and yes, absolutely - this is exactly what they say, some more obvious ones go straight to calling women "females"

Yes, I agree with this too.

I’d see it more as a man who vocally prides himself on not being some kind of PUA/active misogynist, like he should get extra brownie points/female attention/sex for not being an active asshole.

That's what I meant by this...

Men who don't see women as fully autonomous beings with their own needs, wants, desires, thoughts and opinions. But empty vessels who can be coded to be receptive to meeting a man's needs if they use set patterns of behaviour or certain words.

and this...

It is the woman's fault/flaw (in their eyes) when it doesn't work.

Because its not their natural character. They actually think the out and out PUA/misogynists are probably onto something but they still vocally pride themselves on not being like that. They still view themselves in relation to that model of winning over women. And think they should receive special treatment because they could (and probably should) be like that but are choosing not to be...

Whereas decent men don't consider it at all.

The guy I’m seeing everyone says ‘he’s so lovely’ and ‘he’s so sensitive’ it’s just a bit of a feeling I get. His reputation almost distracts me from my own experience where I find him colder or dismissive.

OK, I dated one of those types of men a few years ago. I found t fascinating. He overplayed his hand so he came off just looking like a pantomime villain rather than damaging me in any way!

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what other people say and think about him. The only thing thatatters is your experience. And he isn't going to get any nicer.

How do you mean he overplayed his hand?

Having lots of friends of either sex doesn’t prove anything, though. My male friends are no nicer or nastier than my female friends. Having female friends doesn’t indicate anything about a man (or indeed a woman). I have two close male friends who are excellent, generous, caring friends to me, but whom I can see/have seen are dreadful, lazy and poor at communicating in relationships.

Your opinion of this man is the only one that counts, ultimately. It doesn’t matter if everyone else in the world thinks he deserves the Special Cuddles Nobel Prize for Loveliness, they’re not you. Ditch if it’s not working.

Everyone who knew Ted Bundy said he was very nice, doesn't prove anything

if you find him off-putting for any reason thats a good enough reason to not date him

No I know @HermeticDawn — what I meant is that I’ve noticed him making a feature out of above and beyond ‘niceness’ with these people

If you're worried that the person you're dating isn't what you want, leave. People in healthy relationships don't suspect their partners of negative things.

It doesn't matter if you're right or not. You have to do what feels right for you. Is 'suspecting your partner' something that you enjoy? If not, get a partner you don't suspect.

No I know Watchkeys. I’m just interested in the term more generally but thought I’d explain why so it doesn’t seem to abstract! I know I need to end it with this fella.

He didn't realise that in order to effectively emotionally abuse someone, you have to sometimes be nice to them (as well as other people) to destabilise them and knock them off kilter more effectively when you're cold and dismissive.

Eg he never complimented me. He would just go straight in for the criticism - telling me what I was wearing wasn't very flattering when a) I knew it was and b) other people commented in it positively. Or just not saying anything at all and making a point of ignoring the fact I'd made an effort. I made it into a game in the end anticipating what his criticism/comment was going to be. He would look at actresses who had completely different bone structures to me and tell me if they could look like that (at the same age as me) there was no reason I couldn't look like that too (eg tall and svelte whereas I am short and hourglass). He would tell me certain characters from films reminded him of me. Not looks wise of course (because they were pretty he said). But personalitywise. They were always the awkward, neurotic depressed characters. He met several of my friends. He told me that, if I tried harder, I could look as good/be as attractive as a particular one of them. Thing is, out of all of them, this one was least his type! Quite masculine in her features, very short hair, loud and brash. It was an unpleasant comment directed towards both of us because he and I both knew he wouldn't find her attractive and it meant that, in his eyes, I was less than even her...

Ordinarily, I wouldn't have stuck it out as long as I did but lockdown 🤷🏻‍♀️ and he was such a gentleman to everyone else. His behaviour and maamers towards others were impeccable.

Bottom line is, he was short and bald and had a real chip on his shoulder about it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm not sure if the man you're seeing is a 'nice guy' in the truest since. They're supposed to be nice to you and expect something in return.

The guy I was seeing had an incel mentality whereby he thought he deserved someone taller, thinner and prettier who'd look good on his arm and would reflect well on him.

He was punishing me for being the 'best he could do' when he felt he deserved more.

It’s because: no one who is genuinely decent needs to go around telling people that. Think about it- do you tell people you won’t steal from them? No, because it’s an expected level of behaviour and doesn’t deserve praise. Nice guys often use it in a very misogynistic angry way to put down women who don’t want to date them. As if being nice means they “deserve” dates (usually with women who are way out of their league). Being nice is like the most basic level we should all expect from others, no one deserves a medal just because they aren’t horrible. Most of us manage it without having to publicise it.

The nice guy thing is also the cry of most red pill men who spend their time on Reddit criticising and tearing women down for only wanting to date “bad boys” which is simply not true. It’s a misogynistic trope these men use to express their destructive hatred of women.

If it's just an interest you have, that's fine, of course. But this isn't the sort of thing you need to do when dating. It's all about how you feel, not the logical and explicable reasons behind why you feel how you feel.

I'm sure you know that too. Hope I'm not being patronising. I just wish someone had told me this before my counsellor when I was 43, it would have saved me a hell of a lot of trying to think my way to happy in incompatible relationships!

I am in my 40s and have heard similar from my counsellor. I suppose I am interested in people in general, and in him (because I’m in a relationship with him and always want to know what makes people tick) and also I am interested in why this trick worked on me.

I had one like that in my late 20s. Looking back, I wonder why I put up with it for so long. I ended up quite depressed for a while. He kept trying to manage my appearance. Not that he was any great shakes to look at, as he spent much of his life seated in front of a screen playing computer games. I've got my own tastes, which involve a rather Goth-y kind of aesthetic, whereas he was trying to make me look like something out of the Next catalogue. I made concessions in the hope of improving the relationship, including having my hair cut into a style of his choice, which felt like something of a sacrifice after I'd been growing it for several years. Needless to say it didn't work. The final straw came when he wanted me to give up my career so I could spend more time watching TV with him. This was at a time when I was starting to make some progress at work, and people were starting to appreciate the contribution I could make. Thank goodness for Women's Aid, who helped me get out of it.

So glad you escaped, @AlexaAdventuress

All's well now thank you.