Can you explain how narcissism presents in women?

[Itsallaboutsmee]

Do male and female narcissists ‘present’ similar traits? I’ve read so much about really ‘sick’ behaviour in male partners (it takes your breath away some times when you read about the horrible things these men say or do to control their partners) but do women have the same traits - do they use the same tactics ? I’ve also read about MIL’s (although not to single out Mils) who can never be challenged or control every one around them, but what about younger women ? What signs do you see ? How do you know if someone is just a bit spoilt ? Or protective because they’ve been so hurt or a bully that’s never been challenged. What actually lets you know there’s one in your midst ?

What happens if you challenge their behaviour ? If they’re young can they be persuaded to see a psychiatrist ? Would that even help ? So much on google but nothing that really answers my questions.

I believe my mother was a narcissist, though I didn’t know the term at the time.
Everything was about her. Everything. I told her husband and I had separated, her reaction was how do you think this makes me feel? This reaction occurred in most situations.
At family gatherings she didn’t care who she upset by her bitchy remarks, as long as she had her say. It was as if she had to come out top by saying the nastiest thing she could.
If anyone ever picked her up on it the gaslighting started.
For some reason I was the scapegoat child from an early age ( she preferred boys) and she’d do whatever she could to put me down verbally. I’ve lost count of the times she actually put me in physical danger but I’m not sure that was narcissism , probably she just didn’t care. She did some bizarre things, I remember being in the bath aged about 4 and she balanced an electric heater on the edge of the bath.
She was very manipulative and if she couldn’t get her own way she’d try to get someone else ( usually my father or brother) to get her what’s he wanted.
She loved people to agree with her and listen to her when she spouted what was often absolute crap, brother fulfilled this role whereas I’d say that’s not actually true……

My father was a very weak man and followed her example so they were a very toxic couple.

I worked with one for many years and she made my life a misery. No one in our small team ever questioned her about her bitchy and snide behaviour - very strange to me and made me feel that maybe I was the problem or inadequate in some way.

I’m could never get over her telling the team how great some of our clients had told her she was. She’s go on about what they had said, basking in the golden glow of their adoration…

She would often practically ignore me when no one else was in the room but be perfectly civil and personable when others were around. But everyone could see through her.

I knew she’d had some tough times in her life and was deep down very insecure, so always gave her the benefit of the doubt but the one great thing about our jobs being made redundant was that I’d never have to see or interact with her ever again!

An ex friend is one - what she's done to her husband and kids would make your hair curl. With me, it was constantly a case of if I'd been to Tenerife she'd been to Elevenerife. Thinks she is the most beautiful woman ever (she's not, needless to say) and everything is about her her her. Seems sweet and charming but underneath is cold, manipulative and very very damaged. Needless to say I am now no contact with this individual and much the better for it.

Plays the victim , pathological liar , extremely controlling , gaslighting , charming ,has to be centre of attention, expert on everything -never wrong, always at the centre of a feud - has to win at all cost , never accepts responsibility -always someone else’s fault, is a bully but claims to be bullied …I could go on !

Tick, tick, tick - all of these perfectly describe the female narcissist I know. I would also add extreme jealousy to the list, zero empathy and no self awareness whatsoever.

My experience is like @SpringViolet and @Lottapianos

Superficially she can see lovely, but over time people start avoiding her because it's always all about her.

She won't employ people to help in the house because they don't come at exactly the time she wants. She needs them to be flexible, around whatever else she has on. She is completely unable to flex around them.

She asks questions and can't listen long enough to get the answer. She accuses other people of having no empathy because they don't fall in line with what she wants at all times.

We're just bit parts in her drama, and the rage when we 'get our lines wrong' is devastating. We are all supposed to be her supporting cast, heaven help us if we have an actual life/need of our own.

Our needs/dramas are only important in how she can use them in conversation. 'My poor disabled daughter'.

It's really upsetting to come to terms with, that your mother has no actual emotional connection to you at all.

You must never, never be emotionally honest with them, or attempt to build a connection, as it will be used against you.

History is rewritten to fit her needs at that moment.

Nothing you do will ever be enough, she's like a ghoul sucking out your life force to sustain herself.

And she's sad.
She genuinely believes her own narrative, that everyone else has lovely close family who care for them and make them the centre of their world and she's so hard done by.

She doesn't understand relationship at all.

Women like this cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are often as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

Have also worked with a narcissist (although I was unaware on the terms the time) and she caused havoc and unhappiness in the workplace in her own way. Management sucked up to her. The day she left was a very happy one.

Rarely a week too would go by without she having an argument with her wet lettuce enabler bf or with his and her relatives, it was always someone else’s fault and never hers. Her bf too was swiftly discarded once he was of no further use to her. She was ever the professional victim.

'We're just bit parts in her drama, and the rage when we 'get our lines wrong' is devastating. We are all supposed to be her supporting cast, heaven help us if we have an actual life/need of our own.'

Such a great description. Having a parent like this really can leave you feeling like you don't exist. Like you literally don't exist, because they're so enmeshed with you, and they don't see you as a separate person from them. It's like having the soul sucked out of you.

They have such a weak sense of self that they don't know how to help you as their child to develop a strong sense of self, so the danger is that you only see yourself through their eyes, even well into adulthood. I used to be so terrified of saying no to my parents, or not doing what was expected of me. It really felt like the sky might fall in

Ex has narcissistic traits. The counselor is not sure whether she is a fully blown narc, but normally these people have a combination of cluster b traits.

Love bombing-she mirrored exactly my values-needs. Looking back in the initial stages she miraculously came around to my way of thinking after 6 weeks. You're the one, live with me, I'll treat you like a king. We'll live like a fairytale.

Punishment-reward-devalue my values-attack my core fundamentals-attack my children-ex. You're a loser, your children will be useless, and you don't earn enough, too much salt in this food, micromanaged yet criticize. Then she'd initiate a period of sex to satiate.

She'd use sex as a reward during the devaluation phase. In the end post fling/affair, she attempted sex consistently for 6 weeks while I waited for my tenancy to begin. She was very, very direct.

Flying monkeys-Male orbiters-she had lots of those-but most are actually fake or of no use. These were used to imply she had options, either for sex or her life, they'd help with a deposit for a home, and help her move. Basically implying she had all these men on call. It was drivel. She also had very few intimate female friendships, those she did have were used. Very superficial.
However, she would jump from relationship to relationship. Always without fail to end up either cheating with the same guy or leaving and ending back in his bed. Even family members commented on her transient behavior. Her employment history despite now having a period of stability of 2-3 yrs was littered with her leaving because the position wasn't suitable because of others' inability to work how she expected.

Gaslighting- this was common- you'd have a discussion-then every time that discussion or the points made never happened. Apparently, narcs have amnesia.
Planting seeds is very common-she used to call it spicing my head.

During these periods of gaslighting if she became angry she'd use the silent treatment as a punishment either days or up to 10 days. She also used this against family members, particularly her mother. She boasted once ignoring her mother for 6 months, 'Because in her words she wouldn't take her advice if she wants to be a loser, then leave her to it'.

No empathy, non, people shouldn't need mollycoddling, feelings just get in the way. She even boasted of being cold. She deliberately targeted married men at parties, she couldn't understand the fuss made by the wives (They're insecure). One evening whilst telling me about her school experiences she confessed to being a bully. She and her friends bullied a girl so badly that this student begged for her life. Eventually, this student committed suicide later in her life. Her reaction was just sadness, but her emotion was blunted.

At school, she was the alpha, the cleverest, and toughest, she knew everything-too good for school. In her current position, she criticizes the company strategy, she knows better than the director. In her social life, all the men wanted her, she'd lived the high life, etc.

I used to call her out on some of this behavior. In the end, once I directly called her out and said she was abusive that's when I was punished with vicious personal attacks culminating in a blatant fling. She even laughed when the affair was revealed. She confessed to saying I was easily manipulated. Her personality was like all the seasons in one day or week. A bit like Gollum, you have kindness (You'd have a lovely meal prepared, holding my hand on the couch, or sex), nasty attacks (Look how insecure you are), then woe is me (I feel bad, suicidal). Complete with facial manifestations. Especially the final weeks. Weird experience.

One odd addition is birthdays, it was me, me, me, birthdays were overcelebrated. Again strange.

To meet her, she's confident, very physically attractive, and displays a level of worldliness. However, her background is extreme poverty, and extreme verbal and physical abuse (Including attempted murder and sexual abuse) towards herself, her family members, and her mother. The perpetrator was her father and numerous other males she'd met. She's NOT as worldly as she thinks she is.
It's literally a fantasy world. She's not from the UK originally.

I was just sitting here thinking that all the narcs i knew were men and then this description could have been written about a female "friend" of mine! Ive never thought of her as a narc before just a general pain in the ass but im definitely thinking differently now.

The one I knew died before I became properly clued into that kind of behaviour (thanks Mumsnet!). It's the constant manipulation by hook or crook. Adult temper tantrums when we didn't want to do things her way. Also for us, the outside world thought she was wonderful, but she was an utter bitch to close friends and family when she chose to be, a very difficult person. Not as bad as many I've seen on here, but the only person I deliberately went no contact with for a few years.

Silent treatment may not look like you'd expect

Mine would take off when she couldn't get what she wants. Pack a bag and go for a few days.

My 21st I had made a decision she didn't like (didn't affect her in any way) and so she packed and went, leaving dad and I to go for my birthday meal without her, then host an extended family birthday bbq without her.

Apart from that it was rage. Shouting, nastiness, that went on for days if you'd made a mistake.

Terrible.

-Perpetual victim but unbothered about others’ plight
-Special and entitled
-Bear grudges for life
-They can do what they want; you can’t do anything right
-Everything they accuse you of, is who they are

A member of dhs family.

She’s always the victim. Everything bad that happens to her is the other persons fault. She refuses to accept responsibility for anything.
When her and her husband split up up, she played the victim, said he was abusive, made him out to be the most terrible person (she failed to mention that she used to spit on him, grab him in the privates, belittle him) She even told us she thinks he has Parkinson’s, then it was dementia. He didn’t have any of these things. She would say things infront of him to other people ‘oh he gets confused, look at him walking into things’
She seemed furious that he had the audacity to leave her.

She is very critical but cannot handle any perceived criticism herself. She gets angry and defensive.

Every conversation, she will bring back to herself. When I had a miscarriage, she kept trying to allude that she had had one too (she hadn’t) & turned the conversation around to herself.

When she has an explosive ‘episode’
She will often act like nothing happened half an hour later. It’s very odd.
She gaslights & ‘forgets’ nasty things she has said, flat out denies it.

She is very envious & jealous. Especially of other woman, even her own adult daughter. That’s the bit I find disturbing.

She needs to be centre of attention. If she isn’t or someone hasn’t shown her enough attention, she speaks badly of them and says things like ‘I don’t think she likes me’ ‘she thinks she’s something special’ Again, it’s usually other women.

She creates so much unnecessary drama & brings it into other’s lives.

She overreacts and over thinks everything.
Extreme mood swings. She has an over inflated ego one minute, the next she’s crying on the phone, saying she’s on her own, doesn’t have enough money, etc.

She is very manipulative and uses emotionally abuse.

Doesn’t respect boundaries.

She will love bomb ‘I worry about you so much, I love you so much’

All her relationships with people have ended - she somehow finds a way to push people away, even though that’s not what she is trying to do. Her own son has been nc with her for nearly 20 years.
She’s fallen out with her dd countless times, she fallen out with so many friends over the years. She doesn’t actually have any real friends. I’ve noticed she tends to befriend people who are kind and perhaps soft hearted, she will then tell them her tales of woe to get sympathy/people on her side.

It’s actually a horrible situation. It’s the reason dh & I keep her at arms length. We hardly see her & I will never let our kids spend any time with her alone.

I recently came to the conclusion about 2 women in dps family that just fit the bill as narcisists. Slightly different, but also spookily the same:

Older woman:
Has to be the centre of attention
Always right - can never be wrong, don't even dare to correct her!
Her way is the only way
Her opinion is the only one that counts
She is better than everybody else and openly says this
Victim of something - all the time
if you are ill, she is suddenly more ill
If you acheived something - she has already achieved it and done it better (but hasn't actually)
Believes she is perfect. again openly admits this and believes it
She is the 'best' at absolutely everything - says this out loud regardless of what it is.
Conversation has to be about her, usually making herself into a victim of something or other.
Spectacularly self centered, no empathy at all (unless pretending to have some gets her something she wants).
Disposes of people she no longer has a use for.
Cannot cope with anyone disagreeing with her on anything.

Younger woman:
Always right.
Two faced beyond beleif
Pretends to be friendly, then botches about everyone behind their back (see above!)
She is better than everybody else
Nothing is ever her fault. Blames it on anything but herself.
Fakes interest in people in order to use them for something. Though has few friends as they soon see through her.
Has to be seen to have the best things, better than anyone else has.
Manipulative
Thinks everyone else is lazy and she is run off her feet (she isn't)
Needs people to like her, angry when they don't.
Physically violent when angered (throws things/punches)
Plays the victim constantly.

This s my ex to a T, his mother had some traits too

It can't really be observed unless it's happening to you. After you've seen the light you understand their behavior but to everyone around them, they look wonderful and kind.

One thing I read that made sense to me was - to a narcissist, you are either a source of fuel to their esteem or you're competition. Either way they will use you, to prop up their fragile self esteem.

Although they have poor self esteem, they are highly deluded and believe they're the centre of the world. You are not you're own person but a character in their show. If you step out of the role that they have created for you, they will manipulate, withdraw affection, gaslight etc.

TBH this is true for male and female narcissists. I don't know that there's a difference.

If you step out of the role that they have created for you, they will manipulate, withdraw affection, gaslight etc.

Agreed and heaven forbid you should appear to outshine them in anyway you will then suffer the wrath of lies and dramas so they can divert attention back to them.

It's so frustrating when other people think they are all sweetness and light and you are in the wrong for holding a grudge. No I don't hold a grudge I hold boundaries .

I’ve read each and every one of your replies. I’m still relatively confused as ‘my narcissist’ doesn’t have all the traits. Yes she’s a drama queen, she’s selfish, no empathy, gaslights, and manipulative but shows no signs of delusions of grandeur or needing to be better than others. Doesn’t seem to think less of others and can be loyal to friends but I have noticed she does tend to pick people who are slightly ‘damaged’ in some way. She has a family who loves her and seemingly a great job where she is respected, but somethings are just so wrong.

Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. An armchair diagnosis that’s gone awry, but I don’t think she would agree to see a psychiatrist for a clinical diagnosis and her counsellor (for anxiety) has just been dropped for suggesting she might be part of the problem in a dispute with a family member (not me), and I’ve noticed if someone takes a stand against what she wants they’re dropped unless they’re useful.

But, if I could get her to a therapist (are there such people who specialise in helping narcissists ?) could she be made better ? Is it a mental illness ?

'But, if I could get her to a therapist (are there such people who specialise in helping narcissists ?) could she be made better'

Very unlikely. She does sound like she has narcissistic traits, and a key part of that is lack of insight. She doesn't get, or can't afford to admit, that she is a big part of the problem. She's already ditched a counselor for challenging her behaviour. She doesn't want to, or can't, hear it. None of this is likely to change I'm afraid

Some people say that it's just not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist, and I tend to agree. They're people to be managed, with a big focus on protecting yourself and having very solid boundaries. You can't afford to trust them or to be vulnerable

This makes me so sad. As the family and wider family are realising who she really is do you think they can protect her child from her worst characteristics ?

'This makes me so sad'

It's very sad stuff. But remember those boundaries. You are not responsible for this woman, and you won't be able to 'fix' her

Re protecting her child, having as many positive, loving, nurturing adults as possible a child's life will always be a good thing.

My counselor said there's very little to be done with a narcissist. However, apparently, narcissism is a form of CPTSD, so can be treated to an extent.
I know even the counselor again reiterated my ex definitely is on an NPD spectrum. Imagine a childhood whereby you have to invent an alternate reality just to survive. It's strange looking at the personality dyad. I could see it.
It's tragic when you think about it.

Craig Malkin has some interesting information on this

Women like this cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are often as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded.

My sister is a narc and she has only sustained relationships with men who serve her.
Like an actual servant. Two so far.

She does not discard them if they are of use and are providing for her. Due kept one around for years on and off until she wanted to jump to another man. The second; I get the impression she thinks she cannot get anyone else at her age now - and he fulfils everything she wants - so she's very committed & codependent.