Did I 'emasculate' him?

[SugarCame]

So I was on this first date with a man, he chose this small restaurant, we met outside. Going in, the waiter showed us a table right at the front of the place which was very busy. He asked if there was another table at the back and the waiter said 'no'.

We sat down and he told me he called to book and asked for a 'quiet' table (opposite to what we got). The table was okay but the main problem was that it was next to the main door and every time someone came in and out, the cold wind would blast us and that was unpleasant. It was the kind of restaurant where people come to collect take out orders as well as eat in so the door was being used quite a bit and everytime the wind blasted us, he complained.
Service was slow and we were there for a bit of time, the restaurant started to get less busy and I told him a couple of times when he complained that it was okay to move tables now that there were some available, but he refused to, saying that is was too late / we already settled there / it would give the waiter more work etc etc etc. I told him I had worked as a waitress before and that kind of request is absolutely no problem, I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

So, once we finished our starters and before the main course, the waiter came to ask if everything was okay, if we needed anything...I then super politely asked if we could possibly move to another table and referred to a cosy one tucked in a corner that was now free. The waiter said "of course" "I know this table is very tricky and apologies for seating you here"

So I took my bag and my coat and moved to the other table while my date was there trying to juggle his coat, his drink, his phone, the wine bottle and some plates. The waiter told him a couple of times to leave the plates, the bottle and the glasses as it was his job to carry it and he was more than happy to transfer everything over to the new table but my date seemed baffled. In the end he decided to come to the table carrying his personal belongings and his wine glass so I joked "oh no, I forgot my wine" to which the waiter jokingly said "don't worry madam I will bring it to you" and my date was confused as to who should have carried my wine glass: me, him or the waiter?
Anyway, we settled at the new table which was a lot better and ate our main courses. Without the blast of cold wind hitting us every 5 minutes, we were a lot more relaxed. The food was delicious too.

Overall a good date.

The reason why I'm posting this is because I was the type of woman who would sit there and endure anything in attempts to be 'nice', 'agreeable', 'not go against the man wishes' (especially on a 1st date) and the worst of all: to be 'feminine' and let the man 'lead' even when his leadership was not good for me. Then I would feel angry and resentful afterwards.

Curious about your thoughts.

It just smacks of ‘but he likes it when I bend over’
Its deeply uncomfortable to read.
This is not about chivalry and good manners

That is exactly his language: 'send you home' I love it.

🙄🙄🙄

That is exactly his language: 'send you home' I love it.

That is the worry. 'Sending you home" is objectifying and reveals an underlying attitude that whilst it can be sexily dominant in the early stages of dating, becomes undermining and problematic in the long run.

The fact you - not just like it - but profess to love it - shows that you are looking for a dynamic with a man who is objectifying you - as I said earlier narcissistic wankers.

Each to his own but at least face up to what it is that turns you on.

Well, I'd rather wait and see to how every unique situation turns out rather than live in a black and white world and in fear of the worst outcome happening.

Nothing about 'sending you home' is objectifying and even if some think it is, I don't feel objectified at all. When I'm with him I feel very good and may long it last.
I trust myself that if and when the tables turn then I know what to do.

you have inside knowledge and he doesn't.

Sounds disingenuous to me, to suggest that asking to be moved when a better table is available, in the expectation that your request will be granted with the minimum of fuss, is somehow secret insider knowledge not available to the general restaurant going public.

Even if you had never been to a restaurant before, why would you not prefer a different table to being stuck in a draft.

He claimed to have asked for a table 'tucked away'. And not been given one.

I find People who cannot express their needs simply and politely really frustrating. I would not have another date with him, he would not be part of my circle of friends.

This is what dates are for. Things happen, you both react, you size each other up.

If he’s the kind of man to feel emasculated (horrible word), by you being yourself, then you can both move on without wasting any more of each other’s time.

There really isn’t a binary right/wrong man or woman. But if something happens that makes you uneasy, uncomfortable, or just disinterested move on.

Our cultural messages have been so focused on finding a mate (any mate) that we haven’t paid enough attention to sheer misery of shackling yourself to the wrong one. No one can maintain a false persona in the long term but there’s an enormous cultural pressure to try.

Be yourself is the absolute best dating advice available.

In your shoes, I'd just move on and not think about it/him.

I had this - went on holiday with someone I'd been seeing for a while but he'd been working away for a bit.
Our room was terrible so I asked if we could be moved (I'd booked the trip so felt responsible) - I was polite about it just said that the room we'd been given wasn't the one I'd booked.
He basically dumped me there and then for - as he saw it - taking on the "man's role" and asking to be moved.
Even though he agreed that the room was awful, he'd rather constantly whinge to me about it rather than get it sorted...

I don't understand what's disingenuous about it at all.

Even if someone goes to restaurants quite often, they might have never come across someone asking to move to a preferable table mid-meal when one becomes available (a want, not a need, BTW), and might not be sure whether this would generally be considered an acceptable request or if it comes off as fussy and demanding.

Of course some people won't even think about it, will just assume that of course it's fine for them to move to a nicer table if one becomes available, even if they've never come across anyone else doing this, but that's just a difference in personality. It's not wrong to be considerate of whether you'd be inconveniencing busy staff members, and it's not wrong to assume staff are there to help you enjoy your meal and confidently and politely request to move, either.

I'm not pretending not to know — it's genuinely something that it's possible not to have encountered before, and which can feel like it lies within one of those unspoken etiquette areas where it can be hard to work out: is this

a) something that's pretty cheeky and just not done (maybe it would put you in a different waiter's area, maybe it's a pain to have to change the info on the system, maybe busy waiting staff haven't got the time to be faffing about moving all your stuff but don't want customers wandering around with glassware, maybe it comes over as an insult to the restaurant to imply they've put a table somewhere they shouldn't, maybe it's arrogant to act like you're too good for the less-preferred table, maybe it's rude to dirty up two tables instead of one), or

b) a normal, everyday, typical request that a waitress would take entirely in her stride and think nothing of, which makes perfect sense to do when a table you'd prefer has come free?

Someone who's waited tables will know whether it's thought of as cheeky and a bit of a dick move, or perfectly normal and acceptable and a routine part of the job. I never said "secret", just that it's inside knowledge, the same way anyone in any job knows what's normal and expected better than those who haven't done that kind of work.

This is so alien to me, I’m totally bemused reading it. You write like you’re in a Jane Austin novel. And clearly sit and over analyse your self, I mean who writes they are playful and sexy with powerful blokes. It’s like the pg version of fifty shades.

if I didn’t like the table as soon as I saw one free I’d have called the waiter over and asked to move, it wouldn’t have been a discussion. Also this navel gazing on if you emasculated him. Good lord

I don't think this one is for you, OP.

A socially inept, whine but do nothing man would annoy the shit out of me.

I much prefer one who is sure of himself and just gets shit done.

Everyone can't be for everyone, so spend more time with him if you feel like it; drop him if he keeps that attitude up.

@ReasonsToBeCheerfull

I've been thinking about covert / overt narcissism and objectifying and something just came to mind and at the risk of being accusing to drip feed now, look at these examples:

I'm in between hair styles and battling with texture (had chemical treatments done) colour (not wanting do dye anymore) and cut (my last cut was too short for my liking, so I wouldn't want to get a new haircut at the moment) so it is been very tricky for me to style my hair and I'm trying different products and methods but I can choose to have it curly, wavy or straight.

The man from the OP saw pictures of my hair is all styles (curly, wavy and straight) and without me asking, he said he preferred curly and even mentioned it made me look younger.

The 'narcissist wanker' saw exactly the same photos the other man saw (I keep changing my WhatsApp main picture + I had a variety of photos in my dating profile) and he never said anything about my hair, never expressed any preference. I always have straight hair when I meet him, sometimes parted to the side, sometimes with the front brushed back and tidied up with pins, but always straight styled. The only time he mentioned anything at all was when I told him I would be going to the bar to meet him straight from the hairdressers and he asked "did they do what you wanted them to do?" and this was before he even saw me - but he knew my hair gives me anguish when I want to look nice.

Another thing: once I was talking with the man from the OP on a video call and eating chocolate. I had one piece and put the bar down on the table. After a while I picked the bar up again and I was about to break another piece, he said 'no' don't eat anymore, you already had enough'. This was before we even met each other face to face. For the record, I'm 5'5 / 58 kg / 21.5 BMI - size 8-10.
I had full body pictures on my dating profile.

The 'narcissist wanker' never ever interfered in anything I ate.

All you are telling us is exactly what I said that you are attracted to narcissist wankers which is another way of saying controlling misogynsts.

The two examples you've given for the man from your OP are examples of controlling behaviour. The hair comment on its own could be nothing but a passing remark but when added to the chocolate looks like a controlling pattern of behaviour. You would ordinarily expect a woman who was told by a virtual stranger she had never met in a dating context "you've had enough" to not see that man ever again - but you actually WENT ON A DATE WITH HIM - and an eating date at that at a restaurant. What would you say to a friend who told you that story? Not to go on a date with him would be a normal response.

Tbe fact you've got some different examples for the OP date as opposed to Mr Send You Home Like A Parcel does not mean that ParcelForce is not a narcisstic wanker. It's hard to choose which is worse.

Like I said, if controlling dominant behaviour turns you on - that's your choice - but it is unlikely to be healthy for you or your self esteem long term.

This from @Dithyramb earlier. My thoughts exactly.

“Being charitable, he sounds as if he’s unused to restaurants, if he didn’t seem to grasp that it was the waiter’s job to move everything but his own belongings to the new table and was trying to carry plates etc himself. Less charitably, I wouldn’t want the task of training a fellow-adult in how to behave in restaurants, so it’s probably not a situation I would seek to repeat.”

Sounds like a nice little restaurant in Northenden I go to. The table by the door is fucking freezing every time I sit there and I always ask to be moved as soon as practicable and they never have an issue with it. I'd not want to sit there and be annoyed with it.

Oh yeah, sorry, didn't finish the sentence. We sat and he looked at me and said: "no curly hair then?" This was right at the beginning of the date!

Well he disguised the chocolate comment as a joke and I ate it anyway, of course I still went on a date. I'm not scared of seeing things with my own eyes nor scared of being controlled as I can hold my own.

Please, he is a well travelled 50 years old man, wealthy and retired early. He is also a foodie.

But he doesn’t have the wherewithal to get the table changed discreetly or simply use humour to switch restaurants, choosing instead to let you shiver by the freezing door! What a catch 🤔

If you are attracted to dominant men you might be a lot safer on a site like fetlife where these things are out in the open. People who are honest and upfront about those kind of things stand a much better chance of a healthy and safe dynamic if there is open and direct communication. Not all dominants are assholes, abusers or narcissists but off scene your chance of finding one who is are significantly higher.

The submissive woman’s board on fetlife is as close to what the MN relationship board used to be like for no nonsense straight talking and spotting red flags.

You come across to me here as a bit nudge, wink, did-I-really-mean-what-you-think in your communication and if you want to play with sharks that’s downright dangerous. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with liking a dominant streak in a man, but be honest to yourself about it.

The chocolate comment is concerning because food control is dipping into dangerous psychological territory.

This conversation is in full swing with the other man already

You really see the world in black and white don't you?
There is a huge difference between a man with initiative who likes to look after his woman and a narcissist. Just because you confuse the two doesn't mean you have to project your issues on OP.
She seems like a confident woman who knows what she wants.

I think both of them sound kind of awful tbh…..

Why would you go on a date with a man who stopped you eating chocolate? That's one of the biggest red flags there is!

There is a huge difference between a man with initiative who likes to look after his woman and a narcissist.

I agree with you and that's what I said.

However, it's very clear that OP is drawn to the latter. The more she posts the more clear it becomes. No one in their right mind would go on a date with a stranger they hadn't met who told them they'd eaten enough just watching them on Zoom or whatever.