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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Did I 'emasculate' him?

109 replies

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 09:14

So I was on this first date with a man, he chose this small restaurant, we met outside. Going in, the waiter showed us a table right at the front of the place which was very busy. He asked if there was another table at the back and the waiter said 'no'.

We sat down and he told me he called to book and asked for a 'quiet' table (opposite to what we got). The table was okay but the main problem was that it was next to the main door and every time someone came in and out, the cold wind would blast us and that was unpleasant. It was the kind of restaurant where people come to collect take out orders as well as eat in so the door was being used quite a bit and everytime the wind blasted us, he complained.
Service was slow and we were there for a bit of time, the restaurant started to get less busy and I told him a couple of times when he complained that it was okay to move tables now that there were some available, but he refused to, saying that is was too late / we already settled there / it would give the waiter more work etc etc etc. I told him I had worked as a waitress before and that kind of request is absolutely no problem, I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

So, once we finished our starters and before the main course, the waiter came to ask if everything was okay, if we needed anything...I then super politely asked if we could possibly move to another table and referred to a cosy one tucked in a corner that was now free. The waiter said "of course" "I know this table is very tricky and apologies for seating you here"

So I took my bag and my coat and moved to the other table while my date was there trying to juggle his coat, his drink, his phone, the wine bottle and some plates. The waiter told him a couple of times to leave the plates, the bottle and the glasses as it was his job to carry it and he was more than happy to transfer everything over to the new table but my date seemed baffled. In the end he decided to come to the table carrying his personal belongings and his wine glass so I joked "oh no, I forgot my wine" to which the waiter jokingly said "don't worry madam I will bring it to you" and my date was confused as to who should have carried my wine glass: me, him or the waiter?
Anyway, we settled at the new table which was a lot better and ate our main courses. Without the blast of cold wind hitting us every 5 minutes, we were a lot more relaxed. The food was delicious too.

Overall a good date.

The reason why I'm posting this is because I was the type of woman who would sit there and endure anything in attempts to be 'nice', 'agreeable', 'not go against the man wishes' (especially on a 1st date) and the worst of all: to be 'feminine' and let the man 'lead' even when his leadership was not good for me. Then I would feel angry and resentful afterwards.

Curious about your thoughts.

OP posts:
Fairislefandango · 22/04/2023 11:16

I opened this thread expecting it to be about a man who had accused you of emasculating him, and was all ready to say that was a massive red flag and to advise running a mile. Whereas in fact this thread is about the fact that you actually like that alpha male bullshit.

I don't think there's as much difference as you think between men who would get angry about being emasculated and the kind of man whom you probably think couldn't feel emasculated because he's so confident in his own masculinity. Both varieties are arrogant twats who think they are superior to women.

FictionalCharacter · 22/04/2023 11:18

ReadtheReviews · 22/04/2023 10:59

Currently with a socially inept, dont like to make a fuss type and it's really fucking annoying. Even when he is annoyed about something and says he will go in guns blazing what inevitably happens is I do 90 percent of the talking while he chimes in and sometimes even wusses out completely and apologises when he's in the right.

OP's date sounds exactly like this and yes, it's annoying. My husband is very reluctant to complain (though he is not socially inept) and I'm the one who deals with bad service etc if I get the chance. If he thinks that's emasculating that's tough. He can imagine I've made his balls drop off if he wants to, I refuse to be given the runaround by tradesmen or fobbed off with bad service just because he "doesn't want to make a fuss".
He would never do what OP's date did though, sit there whining at the worst table in the restaurant and refuse to either ask to be moved or let me ask. That's Olympic level "not-fussing".

tailinthejam · 22/04/2023 11:21

Nothing wrong in what you did, and nothing wrong in expecting the waiter to relocate your drinks and food. That's what they are there for. They were more than happy to move you and even apologised for seating you in such an awkward place the first time.

HeadbandOverMyEyes · 22/04/2023 11:24

What's not being taken into account here is that you have inside knowledge and he doesn't. You've worked in the industry, and know that it's common and acceptable to ask to move mid-meal if nicer tables come free, and that it's staff's job to move anything that's not personal possessions. Of course someone with that inside knowledge is going to be more confident about asking for this.

If you don't have that inside knowledge, and it's not a situation you happen to have been in before, then many perfectly normal people might be wary of making a seemingly unusual request that may make them come across as difficult or demanding towards the staff (and thereby unappealing to the date). How many times have we read "Observe how he treats the staff at the restaurant" as a guide to a date's character?

Ladybug14 · 22/04/2023 11:27

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 11:11

Ladies, no worries.

This was last night and he hasn't checked with me yet, not even to see if I got home safe. I came home by bus whereas his home was walking distance from the restaurant (less than 10 minutes) - (I wanted to come to his area btw).

Can't wait for my power exuding narcissist wanker to come back from his travels, so I can just float and enjoy my light, fun side while he takes care of everything and gets shit done.
And he always sends me home by Uber Luxe too!

Perhaps aim for middle ground? 😁

Blizzard23 · 22/04/2023 11:35

I could not find a man sitting on a date whining about being cold and find him remotely attractive.
What I can’t work out is why you even care if you ‘emasculated’ him?! Does it matter? If he can’t be an adult and find a solution to the table issue then that is his issue, whether someone else could fix it is neither here or there. I have never sat back and let a man play the big guy with me, we are equals and I expect to be heard and respected at all times.

Whataretheodds · 22/04/2023 11:39

Can't wait for my power exuding narcissist wanker to come back from his travels, so I can just float and enjoy my light, fun side while he takes care of everything and gets shit done.
And he always sends me home by Uber Luxe too!

Yuk yuk yuk

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 22/04/2023 11:41

Why did you say you aren't judging him? It's a first date, the whole point is to judge them and see if you want to go on a second date, I'd have judged. By his 40's I'd expect someone to be able to speak up about this sort of situation to someone who can do something, ie the waiter, and not sit complaining to his date and not saying a word to the waiter about it. Age and experience aren't going to help him by this point!

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 22/04/2023 11:42

Oh and you didn't emasculate him, he just showed himself to be a moaning wimp.

ittakes2 · 22/04/2023 11:42

Sorry but you painted a picture of a terrible date where the man was happy for you to be uncomfortable rather then move and upset the waiter...so it was a surprise when you said you had a nice date! He sounds complicated to me. Maybe you both are? What do you think? It is OK if you are as every is different and maybe you are suited?

Freefall212 · 22/04/2023 11:50

I can see both sides. I can also see you posting about how you went on a date with this guy who had asked for a different table and didn't get it. Was told there was none - irritated as he couldn't handle the door opening and closing, complained about being cold. Then asked again to move in the middle of the meal and went to a table in the back leaving the waiter to move all the plates and wine and everything... and you would have had a thread of people saying ditch him he sounds like an entitled selfish wanker who doesn't treat wait staff well and can't handle a little cold and is demanding and will probably end up being a control freak and you should never see him again. ...

Rinkydinkydoodle · 22/04/2023 11:57

I’m married to an ‘can’t possibly inconvenience anyone’ type of guy. It leads to exactly the situations/feelings you’ve described. I’m not pushy or outspoken myself but sometimes it’s totally fine to speak up and ask if you can can have what you’d prefer (as you explained to him (had your words disregarded) then politely demonstrated). Our life together has been a long haul of precisely this sort of thing. To a certain extent, they’re self-emasculating.

ThatOnePlease · 22/04/2023 11:59

Some people hate speaking up, he was refused once and was afraid to be refused again.

The only concession I would have made to the first date vibe is to immediately call over the waiter when a table opened up, rather than consulting first with the date. That way you are taking action without taking action over his refusal, IYSWIM.

His awkwardness on moving I might have been a bit more kind about. But the waiter tried, as you did, too, and he was just awkward. Some people are.

He doesn't have to speak up or take charge, but if it bothers him that you do so, he isn't worth a second date.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:04

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 22/04/2023 11:41

Why did you say you aren't judging him? It's a first date, the whole point is to judge them and see if you want to go on a second date, I'd have judged. By his 40's I'd expect someone to be able to speak up about this sort of situation to someone who can do something, ie the waiter, and not sit complaining to his date and not saying a word to the waiter about it. Age and experience aren't going to help him by this point!

It is just who he is, it is fine.
I have an autistic daughter so I am more forgiving of people not knowing how to navigate social situations

Me in the past would be angry and annoyed. Now me, just observes and have fun. No biggie.

OP posts:
SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:06

ittakes2 · 22/04/2023 11:42

Sorry but you painted a picture of a terrible date where the man was happy for you to be uncomfortable rather then move and upset the waiter...so it was a surprise when you said you had a nice date! He sounds complicated to me. Maybe you both are? What do you think? It is OK if you are as every is different and maybe you are suited?

It was nice because that is what I made of it. I'm a very positive person, little things don't bother me especially if I can sort them.

He is interesting enough and we had good food and wine and some laughters

OP posts:
SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:08

Freefall212 · 22/04/2023 11:50

I can see both sides. I can also see you posting about how you went on a date with this guy who had asked for a different table and didn't get it. Was told there was none - irritated as he couldn't handle the door opening and closing, complained about being cold. Then asked again to move in the middle of the meal and went to a table in the back leaving the waiter to move all the plates and wine and everything... and you would have had a thread of people saying ditch him he sounds like an entitled selfish wanker who doesn't treat wait staff well and can't handle a little cold and is demanding and will probably end up being a control freak and you should never see him again. ...

The only difference is that we actually talked about it more than once! It was not like he was cold and I was not cold. Or he wanted to change and I didn't.

OP posts:
LadyJ2023 · 22/04/2023 12:09

Sounds like days got flustered tbh. I find it hard to move tables thinking people are watching etc and all the fuffle moving everything to lol

Phoebo · 22/04/2023 12:17

I think you sound like a normal person and what a normal person would do. If he had an issue with it he seems a bit lame and to me it's a red flag. I'd actually probably drop him for this reason, don't see him stepping up when it counts

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:19

Whataretheodds · 22/04/2023 11:39

Can't wait for my power exuding narcissist wanker to come back from his travels, so I can just float and enjoy my light, fun side while he takes care of everything and gets shit done.
And he always sends me home by Uber Luxe too!

Yuk yuk yuk

Yuk yuk yuk

He opens the door for me to get in and the driver opens the door for me to get out on the arrival

Absolutely disgusting

OP posts:
Phoebo · 22/04/2023 12:22

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 22/04/2023 11:42

Oh and you didn't emasculate him, he just showed himself to be a moaning wimp.

I don't understand this, there was a free table and the waiter themselves commented on how crappy their table was. If you are a happier person and don't let things bother you, then also this is great but I'm moany and get annoyed easily 😳

perfectcolourfound · 22/04/2023 12:25

I really hope you're joking about 'sending you home' and opening doors.

If you want to be an equal in a relationship, start out as an equal. It's the only way.

Is opening doors so hard?

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:35

perfectcolourfound · 22/04/2023 12:25

I really hope you're joking about 'sending you home' and opening doors.

If you want to be an equal in a relationship, start out as an equal. It's the only way.

Is opening doors so hard?

Have you heard of flirtation and romantic play?
Nothing to do with not being equal

Life - at least mine - can be too hard, drab and dry sometimes

Adding a little romance and fairytale, a little escapism from harsh realities is very good for - at leats mine - mental health and wellbeing. If he can provide it because he want to do it and it feels good to him, I'm taking it. It feels amazing to me.

OP posts:
Phoebo · 22/04/2023 12:41

perfectcolourfound · 22/04/2023 12:25

I really hope you're joking about 'sending you home' and opening doors.

If you want to be an equal in a relationship, start out as an equal. It's the only way.

Is opening doors so hard?

Are you serious? Gosh that's really depressing if you would think this about someone being romantic or chivalrous

Blizzard23 · 22/04/2023 13:08

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 12:35

Have you heard of flirtation and romantic play?
Nothing to do with not being equal

Life - at least mine - can be too hard, drab and dry sometimes

Adding a little romance and fairytale, a little escapism from harsh realities is very good for - at leats mine - mental health and wellbeing. If he can provide it because he want to do it and it feels good to him, I'm taking it. It feels amazing to me.

You sound a little whimsical and keen to be seen as feminine and fairytale - if you hadn’t stated your age I would imagine someone much younger without real life experience.

You don’t need to be coy, or flirtatious or checking you are not being too ‘vocal’ you can be precisely who you are and have a brilliant night. People pleasing women tend to be targeted and get positively broken by certain men that read weakness and exploit it fully.

ReasonsToBeCheerfull · 22/04/2023 13:14

Whereas in fact this thread is about the fact that you actually like that alpha male bullshit.

@Fairislefandango exactly

@Phoebo re @perfectcolourfound 's comment I really hope you're joking about 'sending you home'

The point is that OP's language displays a lot. She doesn't say 'He is concerned to see I get home safely so...". She says "sends me home" - like she is a parcel, an object that he is in control of.

Everything about the way she writes about the men she finds attractive really shows she is someone attracted to what she perceives to be power but is really misogynistic old tropes.

Men can genuinely be powerful but decent (and open doors) without being arseholes. It's very clear that is not what attracts OP.

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