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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Did I 'emasculate' him?

109 replies

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 09:14

So I was on this first date with a man, he chose this small restaurant, we met outside. Going in, the waiter showed us a table right at the front of the place which was very busy. He asked if there was another table at the back and the waiter said 'no'.

We sat down and he told me he called to book and asked for a 'quiet' table (opposite to what we got). The table was okay but the main problem was that it was next to the main door and every time someone came in and out, the cold wind would blast us and that was unpleasant. It was the kind of restaurant where people come to collect take out orders as well as eat in so the door was being used quite a bit and everytime the wind blasted us, he complained.
Service was slow and we were there for a bit of time, the restaurant started to get less busy and I told him a couple of times when he complained that it was okay to move tables now that there were some available, but he refused to, saying that is was too late / we already settled there / it would give the waiter more work etc etc etc. I told him I had worked as a waitress before and that kind of request is absolutely no problem, I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

So, once we finished our starters and before the main course, the waiter came to ask if everything was okay, if we needed anything...I then super politely asked if we could possibly move to another table and referred to a cosy one tucked in a corner that was now free. The waiter said "of course" "I know this table is very tricky and apologies for seating you here"

So I took my bag and my coat and moved to the other table while my date was there trying to juggle his coat, his drink, his phone, the wine bottle and some plates. The waiter told him a couple of times to leave the plates, the bottle and the glasses as it was his job to carry it and he was more than happy to transfer everything over to the new table but my date seemed baffled. In the end he decided to come to the table carrying his personal belongings and his wine glass so I joked "oh no, I forgot my wine" to which the waiter jokingly said "don't worry madam I will bring it to you" and my date was confused as to who should have carried my wine glass: me, him or the waiter?
Anyway, we settled at the new table which was a lot better and ate our main courses. Without the blast of cold wind hitting us every 5 minutes, we were a lot more relaxed. The food was delicious too.

Overall a good date.

The reason why I'm posting this is because I was the type of woman who would sit there and endure anything in attempts to be 'nice', 'agreeable', 'not go against the man wishes' (especially on a 1st date) and the worst of all: to be 'feminine' and let the man 'lead' even when his leadership was not good for me. Then I would feel angry and resentful afterwards.

Curious about your thoughts.

OP posts:
ReasonsToBeCheerfull · 22/04/2023 10:24

I'm more attracted to men who exudes power tbh,

This is the issue isn't it. You are attracted to narcissistic wankers.

That's exactly why you have got so hung up on this minor matter about the table which is no big deal.

Because you see it on some level as an indicator that he is weak, not able to take charge and that instead of falling into your normal dynamic with "a man who exudes power" you did something about it.

There maybe hundreds of reasons why someone doesn't want to move tables once they have sat down - one is the basic point although it maybe mildly uncomfortable, I'm tired and I really can't be bothered. It's just no big deal.

Whatever you say about this, it comes down to a lack of attraction because you see him as weak and not a sign that you are a new woman who is no longer putting up with crap.

I would bet anything you like that if this date had been some super-wealthy, powerful, silver-back gorilla type that if he had said to you very forcefully 'I don't want to move because it's hot in here and I'm enjoying the blasts of cold air' or some other reason why he WAS NOT going to move, you would have sat there with a little concealed moue but played the part of the sycophant.

YellowGreenBlue · 22/04/2023 10:25

Honestly this wouldn't be a big deal for me if the date went well in other ways. I wouldn't overthink it OP.

Ofcourseshecan · 22/04/2023 10:25

BIWI · 22/04/2023 09:42

What a weird thread/question! Are you needing validation from us?

Of course there was nothing wrong about what you did. Your date was the daft one. But surely you know that and don't need other posters to tell you that?

This is a talk forum, where people can muse over things that come to mind, even if they seem trivial or obvious to someone else. Nothing wrong with that.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:30

5128gap · 22/04/2023 10:19

Whether you're entitled to good service or comfort isn't the point at issue though, is it? The thrust of your post was not whether it was reasonable to request the move in itself, but whether by you doing it not him, you were encroaching on his masculinity. I'm saying if there were no signs of that from him, then that says more about your thinking on gender stereotypes than his.

Right

I prefer a strong masculine vibe men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done. I don't incur the risk of 'emasculating' those type of men because they are confident, socially aware and always one step ahead. I feel I'm at my best (relaxed, playful, interested, warm and sexy) when I'm with a confident, head strong, aware man who exhibits the traditional masculine traits.

By strong I don't mean muscles btw.

OP posts:
5128gap · 22/04/2023 10:32

If you don't want to date a man who can't get you a good table and who faffs about with his plate and glass, that's entirely your perogative. You just need to own that's its you that expects men to behave a certain way. No need to imagine the guy has some sort of toxic masculinity issue that's the deal breaker.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:35

ReasonsToBeCheerfull · 22/04/2023 10:24

I'm more attracted to men who exudes power tbh,

This is the issue isn't it. You are attracted to narcissistic wankers.

That's exactly why you have got so hung up on this minor matter about the table which is no big deal.

Because you see it on some level as an indicator that he is weak, not able to take charge and that instead of falling into your normal dynamic with "a man who exudes power" you did something about it.

There maybe hundreds of reasons why someone doesn't want to move tables once they have sat down - one is the basic point although it maybe mildly uncomfortable, I'm tired and I really can't be bothered. It's just no big deal.

Whatever you say about this, it comes down to a lack of attraction because you see him as weak and not a sign that you are a new woman who is no longer putting up with crap.

I would bet anything you like that if this date had been some super-wealthy, powerful, silver-back gorilla type that if he had said to you very forcefully 'I don't want to move because it's hot in here and I'm enjoying the blasts of cold air' or some other reason why he WAS NOT going to move, you would have sat there with a little concealed moue but played the part of the sycophant.

OMG LOL

Do you want his phone number dear?

This guy is very wealthy BTW, retired early, live off investments and properties.

he could be a narcissist too, there are two types: covert and overt, they operate in opposite ways but the core issue is the same.

Not all powerful men are narcissists or wankers

OP posts:
SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:38

5128gap · 22/04/2023 10:32

If you don't want to date a man who can't get you a good table and who faffs about with his plate and glass, that's entirely your perogative. You just need to own that's its you that expects men to behave a certain way. No need to imagine the guy has some sort of toxic masculinity issue that's the deal breaker.

Who is imagining this?

At what line or paragraph did I mention toxic masculinity?

If anything, I mentioned my past toxic femininity behaviour

Jezzzz, I forget this is MN sometimes - that is why I mostly post on beauty and style forum now a days.

OP posts:
5128gap · 22/04/2023 10:44

You think you may have emasculated him by stepping up. The notion that a woman being assertive in the company of a man diminishes his manliness is a an example of toxic masculinity. A man or woman who believes this to be true is buying into the notion of toxic masculinity. I don't know why you're blaming 'MN' either. You chose the topic!

FictionalCharacter · 22/04/2023 10:47

But never shrink yourself to be what a man thinks you should be.
Spot on @Sparklfairy .

I couldn't be doing with someone who sits there whinging instead of doing something about it. He really does sound a bit of a nightmare. If it was a one-off fair enough, but I find that hard to believe because that's such a weird way to behave. Especially on a first date.

ReasonsToBeCheerfull · 22/04/2023 10:47

Not all powerful men are narcissists or wankers

I'm not saying they are but it is very apparent from your posts that this is what you are attracted to - the narcissistic wanker type. It's exactly why you've got so worked up about a non-issue -because the date's (perfectly normal) behaviour has got you in a tizz about whether you emasculated him.

I thought this from your original posts but it was totally confirmed by your reply to @5128gap after I posted here:

I prefer a strong masculine vibe men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done. I don't incur the risk of 'emasculating' those type of men because they are confident, socially aware and always one step ahead. I feel I'm at my best (relaxed, playful, interested, warm and sexy) when I'm with a confident, head strong, aware man who exhibits the traditional masculine traits.

Just read what you wrote - "men who enjoy taking care of things", "don't incur the risk [THE RISK!!!! ffs] of emasculating those type of men", "I'm at my best ...playful [!!!]". It's got I am only attracted to narcissistic (probably misogynstic) wankers written all over it.

ratherbepaddleboarding · 22/04/2023 10:50

I think you're right to muse on it, but i wouldn't go making any snap decisions based on it.

He was on a first date and may have been nervous. Two or three dates in he may have dealt with it very differently. Or he may not have, but have other fabulous traits that offset it.

Sounds like you are dating two men who are very different but both have potential.

If I were you, I would very much arrange a second date with this one.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:52

5128gap · 22/04/2023 10:44

You think you may have emasculated him by stepping up. The notion that a woman being assertive in the company of a man diminishes his manliness is a an example of toxic masculinity. A man or woman who believes this to be true is buying into the notion of toxic masculinity. I don't know why you're blaming 'MN' either. You chose the topic!

My understanding of toxic masculinity is completely different than yours but that is ok.

Also not I made a point to say 'emasculated'

And if I did or not, honestly I don't care, I am comparing and contrasting who I was to who I am as per my last paragraph on the OP.
If he felt 'emasculated' then it is for him to check in with himself.
I felt good by the way I acted.

OP posts:
Naunet · 22/04/2023 10:52

I can’t imagine not speaking up in this situation, or wanting to be with a man so fragile he felt “emasculated” by me doing so. It’s sexist rubbish, I mean what’s the term when this is the other way around? You never hear women complaining about how a man, what, efemulated them?!

The type of men who want a woman to be submissive and meek is the type of weak, insecure, sexist, fragile man I would want nowhere near me.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:54

FictionalCharacter · 22/04/2023 10:47

But never shrink yourself to be what a man thinks you should be.
Spot on @Sparklfairy .

I couldn't be doing with someone who sits there whinging instead of doing something about it. He really does sound a bit of a nightmare. If it was a one-off fair enough, but I find that hard to believe because that's such a weird way to behave. Especially on a first date.

Be careful, there isa no mid point or compromise (joke)

As per a poster upthread, the opposite is a narcissist wanker and there is nothing in between

OP posts:
NoSquirrels · 22/04/2023 10:56

men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done

The crux of this for you is that he didn’t solve the problem in a way you wanted?

I told him l .. I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

You wanted him to realise that you wanted to move tables?

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 10:57

ReasonsToBeCheerfull · 22/04/2023 10:47

Not all powerful men are narcissists or wankers

I'm not saying they are but it is very apparent from your posts that this is what you are attracted to - the narcissistic wanker type. It's exactly why you've got so worked up about a non-issue -because the date's (perfectly normal) behaviour has got you in a tizz about whether you emasculated him.

I thought this from your original posts but it was totally confirmed by your reply to @5128gap after I posted here:

I prefer a strong masculine vibe men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done. I don't incur the risk of 'emasculating' those type of men because they are confident, socially aware and always one step ahead. I feel I'm at my best (relaxed, playful, interested, warm and sexy) when I'm with a confident, head strong, aware man who exhibits the traditional masculine traits.

Just read what you wrote - "men who enjoy taking care of things", "don't incur the risk [THE RISK!!!! ffs] of emasculating those type of men", "I'm at my best ...playful [!!!]". It's got I am only attracted to narcissistic (probably misogynstic) wankers written all over it.

Ok

Thanks for being my therapist today and giving me insights about my psyche that you know so much better than my own self - and that by just reading a thread online on a situation. Appreciated!

OP posts:
ReadtheReviews · 22/04/2023 10:59

Currently with a socially inept, dont like to make a fuss type and it's really fucking annoying. Even when he is annoyed about something and says he will go in guns blazing what inevitably happens is I do 90 percent of the talking while he chimes in and sometimes even wusses out completely and apologises when he's in the right.

Treacletoots · 22/04/2023 11:00

By the sounds of it he'd probably get on your nerves, quickly with his lack of ability to adult in sociL situations. He'll also probably start to resent you for taking the lead and, eclipsing him, because sadly too many men are ingrained with a traditional "men do x and women do y" logic.

I'd only continue to date if he offered something extra, I.e. was incredibly fascinating or fantastic in bed, because life is too short to waste on mediocre relationships.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 11:01

NoSquirrels · 22/04/2023 10:56

men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done

The crux of this for you is that he didn’t solve the problem in a way you wanted?

I told him l .. I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

You wanted him to realise that you wanted to move tables?

We BOTH wanted to move tables but he was unwilling to do anything about it and refused my offer to do it.

He was the person who arranged / booked the table, not me.

He was more annoyed than I was - I was not complaining all the time like he was. I just acknowledge that there was a cold wind blasting us and expressed I had no problem in asking to move if he was uncomfortable doing so.

OP posts:
WhatASillyPredicament · 22/04/2023 11:02

I think you're over thinking it here op. I suspect your date was just trying to be polite, and a gentleman. It sounds like he was conscious of what you thought of him, if anything.

FictionalCharacter · 22/04/2023 11:02

NoSquirrels · 22/04/2023 10:56

men who enjoy taking care of things and getting shit done

The crux of this for you is that he didn’t solve the problem in a way you wanted?

I told him l .. I could ask myself if he was uncomfortable to do so, but he refused to try and solve the issue and preferred to be annoyed with the situation instead.

You wanted him to realise that you wanted to move tables?

He knew she wanted to move tables. They both disliked the table they were seated at. He just didn't want to do anything about it and didn't want her to either. He just sat there complaining.

Whataretheodds · 22/04/2023 11:03

Shodan · 22/04/2023 09:30

I'd worry less about whether you emasculated him (you didn't) and more about the fact that he ''preferred to be annoyed", tbh.

This.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 11:03

ReadtheReviews · 22/04/2023 10:59

Currently with a socially inept, dont like to make a fuss type and it's really fucking annoying. Even when he is annoyed about something and says he will go in guns blazing what inevitably happens is I do 90 percent of the talking while he chimes in and sometimes even wusses out completely and apologises when he's in the right.

Get a 'narcissist wanker' who loves getting shit done lol

You will have a blast!

OP posts:
Whataretheodds · 22/04/2023 11:04

The crux of this for you is that he didn’t solve the problem in a way you wanted?
He didn't want to solve the problem at all. He wanted to moan about it. That would drive me mad and put me off a 2nd date.

SugarCame · 22/04/2023 11:11

Ladies, no worries.

This was last night and he hasn't checked with me yet, not even to see if I got home safe. I came home by bus whereas his home was walking distance from the restaurant (less than 10 minutes) - (I wanted to come to his area btw).

Can't wait for my power exuding narcissist wanker to come back from his travels, so I can just float and enjoy my light, fun side while he takes care of everything and gets shit done.
And he always sends me home by Uber Luxe too!

OP posts: