There is a blurry line between victim and abuser isn’t there?

[Itsalongtime]

I think I’ve just come to realise this. Abusers a lot of the time were once victims, they are stuck in the need for others to make them feel better. They really are still victims.

I was neglected by my parents and abused by my husband and I’m catching myself doing very similar behaviours to him now. It feels nice when people listen to you and tell you how well you have done. My ego is very weak now from what I’ve been through and seeking valuation feels good. People should just know how I feel and make me feel better just because…but really they owe me nothing that isn’t given freely. I tell my child that if you are kind others in turn will be but never to expect it. I expect things from people who I’ve given things to or at times nothing to just because I feel a bit crap inside.

I do not want to carry this identity going forward. I don’t want to become addicted so that I destroy everything for that supply. Yes it feels good but I don’t want to be a victim forever. I have a missing part of me from my childhood. I don’t really know how to get validation from within. I am proud of myself in some ways I suppose but I never feel it strong enough to mean anything.

How do I put that to bed?

I think you need to separate the perfectly normal, natural desire for validation/appreciation from people, from the abusive need to be the centre of attention. If you're doing something purely for the reward, then there may be an issue.

There is a line that one becomes the other.. its perfectly NORMAL to want a bit of acknowledgement, like a simple 'thank you' when you do something for someone, its nice to feel appreciated and like the other person/people noticed you did a nice thing.

My ex is a bit of a martyr, he will do stuff for people, but then gets abusive if you don't 'reward' him in a way he deems appropriate. A simple 'thanks' isn't enough, he wants gushing over, he wants a gold star and some devoted worship so he can bask like a prince in his 'look how wonderful i am' moment of glory.

The trick is not to conflate the two. Its normal when you've been in an abusive situation to think normal needs/wants are abnormal, or that we shouldn't expect or want to feel those feelings.. it is normal, and it's ok to have them... just check yourself on how you react when people don't do what you expect in return..that is the potentially toxic place, and the only way around that is to remind yourself to take a breath before you respond.

@ArtixLynx so I’ve arranged a party for the coronation for his and my family. I’m now confused over my motives. Am I doing it so they will like me, yeah partly. I want to be liked by his family. Is that wrong? I also like the feeling of being part of a family as I’ve never had that. It also gives me something nice to focus on. It also makes my partner happy to see me making an effort. It gives my children an opportunity to play with the other children in his family. All of that makes me feel good, Is that selfish?

Not all abusers were abused.
Some were literally, spoilled rotten (even though they'll happily tell you otherwise I'm sure).

But it's good that you can see how your history has changed you and recognise you need to heal from it so that you don't carry on down a path of becoming someone who you don't recognise.

I don't agree theres a fine line between victim and abuser though. For the most part. To keep up systematic and ongoing abuse of another person...to not introspect (as you are doing now) and look to change these behaviours...and of course to mean to and even enjoy harming others- these things are abuser territory.

The only exception might be, if you are in an environment where the abuser is using you against their primary victim. Eg: the father regularly plays you, the child, off against the mother. In that scenario, it may not be until the child leaves that home environment that they are able to introspect and regain their empathy. To feel bad about how they behaved.

Recovering from abuse can take time.
And abusers can use us as pawns to hurt others if we are not careful. We may unwittingly, pr as a result of abuse ourself, become pawns or a sort of secondary abuser. But that is trauma. It doesn't mean you are like them. How do I know that? Because you are capable of introspection, remorse and, change.

There is no fine line. Even if you were abused it’s not a free pass for abusive behaviour. Plenty of people have been abused and don’t go on to repeat it.

As for your need for validation...have you considered it might be codependency? It's common, especially in victims of abuse.

But as pp said, there is nothing wrong with wanting praise and validation.

So long as you can also be happy in your own company.

It's OK to be 'selfish'. Abusers try to deny our needs. They tell us it's selfish to want anything. They want us to think we are the selfish ones. It's not selfish to look after yourself. Or to want happiness.

No

When you are living in the drama triangle it's common to move between the roles of victim, rescuer and abuser, because all of those positions can come from a place of low self esteem and unhealed trauma. Realising that you are still following unhealthy patterns of connection is the first step to changing that pattern. To step out of the drama triangle and create connections based on reciprocal relationships and healthy boundaries is not easy if the only way you have seen people connect previously is through the rules of abuser, victim and rescuer. But you are on the path to healing, most people do not even get to the point of realising they are living in these patterns of thought and behaviour. This is your opportunity to find a healthier way to relate to others, but that can take some hard changes and really seeing the bits of yourself that are not helping you to heal and live in a healthier way. It's not easy to face yourself, but it is the way to healing and breaking the pattern.

There’s nothing wrong with arranging a party that you think others will enjoy because you want to show love and appreciation for your family. There’s also nothing wrong with hoping that they say thank you.

What would be less nice is using the party as a way to manipulate others and get your own way. “After all I’ve done for you…”. Or bullying people into attending because you’ll make their lives horrible if they chose not to attend. Or expecting them to practically prostrate themselves with gratitude and then shun them if they don’t make a massive fuss over you so it becomes all about your effort, and not about people actually enjoying themselves. Or organising it to only your preferences knowing key people truly hate certain activities that you planned. Or organising a party for one favoured child and doing nothing for the other who would also have liked one.

You sound like situation 1. Doing it for love. What makes you think it is selfish?

The reflective behaviour is a positive. It is very difficult to learn functional behaviour If that is not .your experience, but you clearly have.
I think you are right and there can be a thin line. I have a family member who suffered horribly in childhood. They went on to neglect and abuse their child. They have issues with substance misuse and are often aggressive. But feel that they are the victim and should be supported unconditionally. They won’t cooperate with any therapy, just want to be be told that nothing is their fault. If , however gently, you challenge their narrative, the gloves come off. I do feel desperately sorry for them, but for my own sanity, have had to stop contact.

It’s ok to feel good doing nice things for others. So long as it doesn’t become your whole personality and you become a doormat.
You also need to be able to ask for and take freely given acts of service from others so over the long term the give and take balances.

I’m not sure. I had a very neglected childhood and a mother who also put her self first and central in any situation. I have grown up with low self esteem and under confidence.

I don’t expect special treatment or need to feel special. I think I’m OKish, but deeply flawed. I never want to feel the centre of attention. What I do want most of all is to be heard and validated. I want to be allowed to have my own opinions. I don’t mind if you have different opinions, I’m just happy to agree to disagree.

As a result I feel I have parented my child the complete opposite of my childhood.

My ex on the other hand had a very difficult father, physically and emotionally larger than life. I am sure this has led to the problems he had. He felt special, needed endless admiration, couldn’t be criticised or blamed for anything. I believe inside he feels much as you describe yourself.

My problem with him was he wanted me to be his idea of the good wife, think like him and enjoy what he does. Anything less was a disappointment to him, he just wouldn’t allow me to be my own person. I agree with you I think this must be due to a very fragile ego.

I don’t know know what happened to my ego, it just seems very small but stable. What you see is what you get. I know I have a tendency to play the victim (I’m doing it here).

I have been seeing a therapist and she asked me to work out my core values. There are lists you can download. Mine are fairness and authenticity. Perhaps working out yours would help.

Another one was ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Theory. In essence you think of the person you want to be, and by action and thought try to also turn towards being that person.

My highly trained and experienced therapist thought my ex had narcissistic traits. Is that something you feel you could look at?

Which ever way you look at, recognising your behaviour is the biggest step you can make.

Thankyou for your interesting post.

Yes it sounds likeyour ex was a narcissist.

Which is probably why you think you are 'inclined to play the victim'. Abusers want you to think that way. So that you feel your rights (to be respected respected treated with kindness for example) are irrelevant.

It's not playing the victim to talk about your past abuse. Or to talk about your needs. Or to pursue your needs. Or to expect others to treat you with kindness and respect.

I hope the people you surround yourself with now, treat you with respect and kindness.

My ex was definitely narcissistic. At the beginning I went above and beyond to portray my love and thanks. But it got boring having to hear the same stories and my response naturally wained trying to fix him. That’s when I was in trouble and when it all started and his abuse escalated. He made sure I stayed someone he could save.

@Pinkbonbon is it not narcissist to peruse your needs and if those needs are not met be annoyed. For example I need to feel accepted for the real me, the wounded me and I don’t by my mother in law and it makes me feel really crap. I don’t do anything about it but it does hurt. I’d like her to like me because I’m not bad, but bad things have happened in my life. I don’t know why I don’t feel accepted she just feels cold. I know what warm is because I feel it from my partner.

I want her to like me because not liking me makes me think I’m bad and hide away. But I can’t make her like me and I don’t want to be someone I am not.

Thank you OP and everyone for sharing thoughts on these very difficult states of being. Also thanks to Isheabastard for your suggestions to work on core values and ACT therapy, having had a very similar life experience about which you wrote so well these could be useful techniques for healing.
Do you have an online therapist and could you pm her details ?

Wishing all of you meaningful and healthy futures.

How do I put that to bed

You stop finding fault with your own feelings. Which is what the title of your post seems to be indicating that you're doing.

You are a nice person, and you like it when people tell you you do well. That's it. That's not being an abuser.

For example I need to feel accepted for the real me, the wounded me and I don’t by my mother in law and it makes me feel really crap

The lesson isn't about how to change yourself. It's about how to stop spending time with people who don't leave you feeling crap. You don't have to spend time with anyone who makes you feel that way, and why would you? Why would you volunteer yourself to do something that doesn't make you feel good?

Don't change yourself, change your people. And there is nothing wrong with you. Nothing at all.

@Watchkeys no I don’t think I am an abuser but I guess I could be if I get addicted to external validation and don’t learn how to give it to myself. Not sure if that’s how it works, maybe I've over simplified it. I don’t at the moment need it all the time but I do get upset when people don’t offer me kindness or understanding or support because I would like to receive it, especially from family. I’m learning that it says more about them then it does me. I deserve people to be kind to me because I have been through a lot. That’s hard for me to say and hard for me not to receive.

I don’t at the moment need it all the time but I do get upset when people don’t offer me kindness or understanding or support because I would like to receive it, especially from family

This is standard, normal, and completely usual. It's not something you need to correct. And that's how you validate yourself. Start with this one self judgement, and understand that you are normal. That's it. That's self validation.

This. It is just a weak excuse.

No its not narcissistic to pursue your own needs.
(Unless doing so, hurts other people quite considerably and that doesn't bother you).

Your feelings are valid. Other people don't technically have to respect your feelings but it doesn't mean you aren't entitled to have them. Also, people who don't care about who you really are or how you feel are probably not people you want to keep in your life.

It sounds like perhaps your mum is just like your ex. That's why you dated him. You are used to being around cold hearted people. It's all you knew.

Rather than wasting time trying to get your mother to accept you for you, you would be better to accept thar your mother will never change. Learn to accept yourself. You will never get the validation you seek from cold hearted people.

You are enough. You don't have to justify your feelings, choices or life to anyone. You just have to believe that you have the right to them and the right to happiness.

Also, people who don't care about who you really are or how you feel are probably not people you want to keep in your life

This is the key to self validation, I think. The ability to walk away from what doesn't feed you.

So is that where the line is crossed? When what you do to fulfil your needs hurts others. What happens if what I do hurts myself. For example I think people don’t like me because I’m not worth liking. I am abusing myself really aren’t I. I do think that I’m worth liking otherwise I wouldn’t be here and if it hurts its because I think I should be liked because I’m nice so it hurts.

As a woman who is going through hell in an abusive relationship, I am frankly offended at the suggestion he is a victim.

@Nomoreminieggs I think you maybe misunderstanding me. They are the victims in their story in their own mind I was trying to get at.

I think the point is that a person can be a victim of something, and that can trigger them to behave in a particular way. This doesn't mean that they are not responsible for their own behaviour.

So, a person who was mauled by a dog as a child has definitely been a victim of something, and it may well cause them to have negative feelings about all dogs all the time, throughout their adult life. It may be the trigger for them to be violent to dogs, but that doesn't mean that it's ok or that they can't control themselves.

Fault/blame and responsibility often get mixed up, and they really need separating. The original, mauling dog was at fault, but it isn't responsible for the human's subsequent actions. Abusers may have been abused themselves, they may have been victims, it may be someone else's fault that they were abused, but it's the responsibility of the abuser to control his/her own actions.

Your abuser may be a victim. It doesn't mean that they are not responsible for themselves.