What’s going on with my adult son?

[Ooonafoo]

I have copied this over from MH as not getting much traffic:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feeling_depressed/4776243-whats-going-on-with-my-adult-son?reply=125112485

He’s 24 - moved home last summer. Graduated 2 years ago and stayed in uni city after. Trying to establish a freelance creative career. He has his old school friends a pocket money job in a local pub and does loads of sport (solitary stuff - running / climbing). He doesn’t smoke, drink or do any drugs now. He is passive aggressive and hostile in the home. Doesn’t speak just a dark moody cloud - but chipper to his colleagues and friends. He makes his younger sisters walk on eggshells. He has this thing recently where when he is told to do something (reasonable house related) he descends into this whooping crying fit. I walk away as I see it as manipulative and he then rings his Dad at work screaming at him that I am mocking him and bullying him - which is not true - I will have said for instance do not use the jack and Jill shower at 2am use the main bathroom as it wakes your sister who has to go to school.

He screams that I am mocking his mental health by asking him to be considerate to others.

Is he being manipulative or is something deteriorating with him? Could he have something undiagnosed MH / ND that would cause this volatility and rage. My DD is scared of him physically although he has never been violent.

This is my gut but I am fearful of his outbursts and if this would lead to him taking his own life.

He self harmed as a teenager (repeatedly cut his thighs) which he only told me about and showed me recently. He had significant emotional issues when a GF left him and he had to resit exams and ‘didn’t want to live’ - we gave him loads and loads of gentle support and he had some therapy.

His behaviour was very challenging as a teenager at home and we rowed and clashed then. Our relationship was fine when he was living out - but his mood towards the family unit was hostile and volatile when he returned in the holidays.

He has a particular fixation on me and I have apologised for allowing the situation to escalate to become fractious when he was a teenager. I now don’t ever raise my voice with him but any simple request in a calm tone of voice sees him flip into this bizarre screaming state which I walk away from.

This recent (last 6 months since he has moved home) extreme screaming / crying is bizarre - I can’t work out if it’s a very significant symptom of an undiagnosed MH/ND issue or highly manipulative and abusive - so I don’t know if tough love would exacerbate the issue.

We have set him up for psychotherapy sessions as well as private assessment for ADHD but he is not taking these up.

Its causing huge distress in the family especially with my DDs. I don’t know who I am pandering to or protecting. The girls want him out - I am terrified he will take his own life.

Not to scare you but have you ever read We Need to Talk About Kevin, this sounds exactly like that. He sounds manipulative to me, and my first reaction is that being tough is prob the way forward, if he hates living in the house so much, give him 5 months notice an tell him he is now old enough to live on his own, cut him loose. If your mere voice triggers him then he as an adult can choose to go and find a flat share or digs like lots of young people do.

The fact that he thinks he can get his way (which is sounds like ringing Dad works) by screaming and hollering is a huge red flag and in a way it is setting him up for a life of this sort of thing, will he be like that with partnners too? Get him out of the house. He is old enough, the crying and screaming would give me the massive ick even for my own kid and I wouldnt want that in my house nor around my other kids. He is acting like a total dickhead quite honestly....

He is 24! Why are you and his sister allowing yourselves to be subjected to this? Why the hell isn’t his father having stern words?

An aggressive, crying, blaming, moody man can whine about Mummy causing his MH issues all he wants. At some point, though, he needs to sort his own life out. I’d ask him to leave. Or better still, DH should tell him.

This isn’t a healthy situation for anyone.

He needs to go, now. You're so focused on his needs, but this is unsafe for your daughters and for you. Clearly his dad also cares for him, can he live there?

Someone can have MH issues that cause them to be abusive, but unfortunately there are limits to what you can do. If he won't accept treatment, then he IS going to continue to be abusive to you. It's likely to get worse, risking you and your dds - as well as showing them a really horrendous idea of norms for their future relationships.

He's 24, he accepts helps or he goes.

I can't believe you're letting this aggressive, potentially violent, manipulative and angry young man carry on like this.

It's never been normal for students to move back in with their parents after university. He's an adult. If he were doing a course (eg law conversion) with a specific end result point and job prospects afterwards then it would be very different.

I teach university age students and I'm afraid it's a truism that the most capable, pleasant, mature and successful 21 year olds are usually the ones whose parents won't tolerate anything less.

Your son is treating you with gross disrespect. You shouldn't be tolerating this, partly because it's making the home an unpleasant place for your daughters.

Give him two weeks notice and tell him to find his own place. If he has to get a job stacking shelves, he'll have to do that. If he's creative, it won't harm his creativity to stand on his own two feet for a change.

This sounds like the first chapter in a particularly gruesome crime novel.

Does your husband back you up or agree with S?

If he can cope with everything else in his life then I'd be telling him to pack his bags and move out of my house as he is pretty much triggering everyone else misery,

Also, you can't keep him living with you forever because you're afraid he'll commit suicide otherwise.

That's insane.

You can't stop someone who is determined to commit suicide so it will make no difference.

In fact, despite his manipulative and emotionally labour behaviour nothing suggests that he is or will be suicidal.

This is manipulative behaviour which is being enabled by an embedded family dynamic.

You and your DH need to have a strategy for dealing with him and present a united front. Right now he is ruling the roost and calling all the shots.

Wanting a freelance creative career is all very well but it doesn't pay the rent. HIS rent. Which he will need to pay when he moves out.

Help him devise a strategy for moving out and standing on his own two feet. That he needs to

1. get a job
2. find a house share
3. move out
4. build a life of his own

He is choosing to behave like this and you and your DH are enabling it. Time for tough love and a united front.

Your Dh needs to be on board with you. This is an appalling atmosphere for your poor dds and you. Why does your Dh come running? He needs to move out. Can you research some supported living options?

There is no united front.

I have set expectations, boundaries and consequences with DD and then my DH undoes them behind my back and lies about it. He agrees to my face to a consequence and then if I implement it he undoes it. One was not allowing him to have driving lessons in my car for his bad behavior - told DH - next thing I know he has reinsured him on my car and takes him out driving. Then my DD hides the car keys. DH finds them and takes DS out.

We moved DS toiletries to the main bathroom from the Jack and Jill he shares with his sister because he was using it to shower at 2am and refused to stop. DH moved his stuff back. He’s impossible.

He runs around after him and undermines me. I think it unconsciously suits him that I am the target of DS’s rage.

Should be DS not DD.

It's not unconscious! Both these men are very manipulative. How do you get on with your husband?

Your poor DD, given his past behaviour why did you let him back? He needs to go and if your DH won’t support you, then he needs to follow his son out the door.

You and your DD are being abused and your H is at best enabling it he’s has his own staring role in the dynamic.

This

He exasperates me.

It sounds like you could have a lovely life if your husband and son didn’t live in your house.

Would second are you sure he's not taking drugs? My brother's an alcoholic crackhead and does this sort of thing.

That or like my ex h is just a dick.

Then you and your dd need to move out. Right now, the people who should love her and protect her and have back, don't give a shit about her. She will spend her life being a victim and feeling she's not worth loving or caring about.

Well there’s your problem. Your DH reinforces your DS’s behaviour by acting as he does. It’s like them against you.

i don’t think I could live like that and would be telling my DH exactly what he’s doing and if he doesn’t support you, you are gone. How else will it be resolved?

Okay, I am no psychiatrist, but this sounds like classic borderline personality disorder traits. The reason for that is that if he was actually a narcissistic personality disorder that he probably wouldn’t be self harming. So something like borderline making threats especially in relation to girlfriends is definitely borderline personality disorder related. they have a huge threat of abandonment.

They’re also highly highly paranoid. They seem to need to win in whatever they do. So perhaps as a young child he may have had tantrums, and maybe at the time you brushed them off. Maybe this didn’t happen I have no idea .

High level of manipulation. Being able to mask/ present well to others. That leaves you very confused because would you guys he presents another face.

Apparently there’s only one way of dealing effectively with these people. That is you tell them that they deserve a good job, they deserve this and that, and by encouraging them saying they deserve something this seems to kind of click with them on some level.

There is a podcast by Dr. Phil McGraw, it’s part of a series called Phil in the blanks, and I think it’s either episode 89, or 91 or something he talks about borderline personality disorder. I think it’s also available on YouTube. It’s hugely educational when it comes to these manipulative behaviour is because this is so hard to understand. This is the best one there is.

And most importantly he actually talks about how to deal with such people and situations. Believe me, I’ve had a family member behaving very similar way minus self harm. So difficult, it’s unimaginably difficult for parents. But you kind of need to know what you’re dealing with to be able to predict the weather. Once you recognise the patterns, it doesn’t get easier but at least you understand it so much more.

apparently the human brain develops until the age of 25 and most mental illness or disorders manifest themselves around the age of 20 to 25. One only really have a disorder if you’ve got about five or nine points. Otherwise you may have traits of something but not quite fully the disorder. I think he seems intelligent enough and they usually really are, however is the interpersonal relationships that take a hit. Whether it’s family or friends, they should not be that difficult.

I honestly don’t think this is a problem between you or your husband. Look to work together. See what you’re dealing with 1st. If anything you have potential to be each other’s best support. He probably just doesn’t know how to deal with the manipulation and deal with it the best he can and maybe that’s not the best there is, but maybe that’s the best he knows how to do.

I second the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder (potentially) but I’m not sure it matters because the agressive/weird behavior towards you all is way more concerning than the BPS dx alone. I am concerned for you and your daughters (s) safety. Your dh will do anything to avoid conflict with your ds and will clearly sacrifice all the women in the house for his son/a quiet life. Meanwhile a lot of your son’s behavior is typical/prodromal for violent action against women. This incel/loser violence ofyen fixates on mothers and siblings first before it turns on other targets (but your husband is not safe either).

I really think you need to get out and sever ties with both dh snd ds. they can sink into social isolation and dysfunction together.

It sounds like his hostility is very focussed on women - which sounds like very Andrew Tate/Incel you hear about. He is using you as the focus for his angst. He may be suffering, but this is massively manipulative and cannot continue. Finding your voice 'triggering'? Well, he will have to leave then, wont he? Because you dont get to live somewhere behaving like this. What does his dad say? What does he do? The only thing that will work is you being on the same page? Are things solid in your marriage? Are you in agreement about his behaviour and the consequences this should lead to? No grown man should have daddy come running to save him from the nasty women - your husband is not helping here, he is making it worse. Your son needs a reality check. And your husband needs to deliver it.

Shit, just saw the post about your husband! So, not sure about the BPD diagnosis, but it is common in family therapy to see children acting out tension between the parents. As long as your husband behaves as you do, there is no way to improve this. And since you have spoken to him, it is unlikely he is going to change - he has shown he will lie to you. Forget you moving out (although I agree it is not safe). I think your DH and DS need to go somewhere else.

He needs to leave.
Quite frankly if anyone took a shower in my house at 2am it would be the last. Telling you your voice triggers him, who does he think he is talking to? Tell him to go. He is disrespectful and talking like an incel. Your dh needs to talk to him.

The OP has quite clearly said she has had these discussions with her DH repeatedly and he lies, undermines and manipulates her just as much as the DS does.
Yeah, got to agree with a PP who says either you and DD need to leave or, more appropriately, your DD AND your DH should move out. I may be wrong but it sounds like quite a dangerous situation for females to be in and I think your DD's safety should 100% come first or something tragic is going to happen