What’s the difference between a toxic relationship and abuse?

[Justwondering3]

Not that you should stay in either cases.

A toxic relationship implies responsibility on both sides. An abusive one side. (I know there are 2 people in an abusive relationship).

When I was in court the judge said one time “we” were in a toxic relationship not that “I” was in an abusive one. Then went on to say he had abusive behaviours and denied contact with dc. Toxic implies blame on both sides doesn’t it. Victim blaming.

It does and the ins and outs can never be known. My husband left in November and things still sort of "download" to my brain and I think OMG that was abuse, that was abuse, that was abuse... and I thought some of it was normal for five years.

It takes a toll on your mental capacity.

I hope you are well. Whatever happened I think it's important to look to the future and say to yourself 'I will be happy again'

Good luck.

This is a very similar dynamic to me and my exh.

Therapy has helped immensely, and has stopped me from picking over it all and trying to understand his disgusting behaviour and I’m now just working on my own position. That’s all you can do, forget about semantics because ultimately you have to have the confidence in yourself to not care what other people call your relationship. Don’t forget that re your relationship there will be people on the opposite of the spectrum to the judge using the word toxic, and they’ll be saying it wasn’t that bad and that you should have stayed. What people say is of course going to hurt sometimes, but you have to know yourself what is the reality.

That’s where I feel (IME) being constantly ignored and criticised growing up had fucked me up, because I cared more about perception than what I was actually feeling and experiencing. I spent way too long trying to fix something irretrievably broken, because I didn’t want to have failed.

Use of the words ‘toxic relationship’ might have upset me too, but I really don’t feel that it means the judge is assigning equal blame. I think of it like this, the abuser is the key and is always a key, and the lock they need will be their victim. Without the lock, the abuser has nobody to abuse and so therefore whoever becomes the lock automatically becomes part of a mechanism which is the relationship.

I’m not victim blaming here at all I’m just saying that without the right person to be their lock, they key does not abuse. I myself realise now how my exh recognised my vulnerabilities and exploited them in his abuse. It doesn’t mean his abusive ways are my fault, it just means he wouldn’t have been able to be how he was towards me without my particular participation I.e. me staying and trying to shapeshift and destroying myself in the process to ‘fix’ the situation.

Only when I stopped responding in the same way as I had been (thanks, therapy) did he start on my kids. Then I was done. Which is a bit sad in itself because I didn’t value myself or necessarily see myself as needing to be treated better for years and years, but once he turned his nastiness on my kids I was all over it - and he now doesn’t see them.

You have to just be convinced in your own mind of what went on, and who you are and why you left. You have to work on why the word toxic has rattled you and how to move past that. Ultimately you’ve got yourself and your kids out of an abusive relationship and you deserve a bloody medal, it must have been hell.

@happysingleversary its a couple of years for me. It’s a hard slog but yes I’m happy in the sense I won’t ever get with a man like that again. I try to reframe in my head now when I look back. I think oh yeah that felt abusive to me. I had these feelings and I didn’t let myself feel them because he overwhelmed me or I thought they weren’t important. I am trying to stay away from the intent, it’s hard though it left me with deep feelings of rejection. He rejected me and rejected myself for those years.

Objectively, the judge had your ex's side of the story and more facts than we have in your thread and more training and relevant experience in cases like yours than the average MNer here.
The Judge may have been blaming you too or not, it is possible to say toxic about a relation where one abused the other or a relation where both were abusive to each other. I think you're focusing on the wrong thing, look ahead.

Thanks @theWarOnPeace that made a lot of sense.

Do you think that they search for the locks so will she have relationships like this all the time?

@SugarMelonWater I get the feeling I look for validation as the whole experience seems just on the top of my tongue. I don’t have conviction yet in what I went through as it was a real mess.

Toxic relationships and abusive relationships are both harmful, but there are some key differences.

A toxic relationship is one where the behavior of one or both partners consistently causes emotional harm to the other person. This can manifest in a variety of ways, including manipulation, jealousy, possessiveness, and controlling behavior. A toxic relationship can leave one feeling drained, unhappy, and unfulfilled.

On the other hand, abuse is a pattern of behavior that involves the use of physical, emotional, or sexual violence to exert power and control over another person. It can be subtle, such as gaslighting, or overt, such as physical violence. The abuse can cause serious harm, both physically and emotionally, and can have long-lasting effects on the victim.

In a toxic relationship, both partners may be contributing to the negative behavior, while in an abusive relationship, one person is exerting power and control over the other. In a toxic relationship, the toxicity may be temporary and changeable, while in an abusive relationship, the abuse tends to escalate over time.

It takes time to process it all. Have you had counselling?

I put all my fears down to paranoia and he supported that. I was also afraid to leave because of repercussions, which I am not indeed suffering.

I'm still happy though, because he's gone and I'm on my own. I'm happiest on my own.

But yes, it took a few bad relationships and one terrible one for me to finally be confident that I would never put up with the slightest bit of abuse ever again.

The key is to know what you won't tolerate and then reject anyone who oversteps your boundaries immediately and unwaveringly.

This is perfect.

Ok so then I hold no blame for being me or reacting the way I did. I’m made up of a particular set of circumstances and qualities that abusers seek out. I’m simply like a zebra to a lion. I wasn’t treated like that because of me I was chosen because of me. He sought me, it wasn’t an accident. I could never understand if I was so bad why was it me who left and why did he want me back so badly. I even tried to convince him to leave me. I suppose you can get meat off the smallest bones. That sounds horrible.

Yes they do seek people out to abuse. They do little tests like making you do something small to see how amenable you are. They are truly evil and you will never understand how their mind works.

But no, it was not you. It was not your fault. It was their fault.

Al of the things you did that made you vulnerable were good things. This was crucial to me in recovery. It wasn't faults in me, it was the fact that my abuser took advantage of lovely things about me. I was forgiving, I was caring, I was kind, I didn't expect perfection, etc.

There is no need for us to change ourselves in order for us to avoid abuse. We need only to change the company we keep. That's why it's not victim-blaming to say that the victim is responsible for their own welfare. I am in charge of who I spend my time with. You are in charge of who you spend your time with. If someone decides to abuse me, it is my responsibility, if they don't stop, to decide to leave. This is the power we have. If we could all do it, all the time, abusive characters would all be sitting alone with nobody to play with. We are in charge, not them.

@Watchkeys I know that now. I wish I knew that back then, but then I wouldn’t be me I suppose. I couldn’t help but be those things he used. I never knew people like that were out there and my mum left me very vulnerable to them. someone really should have told me. They should teach this at school just in case you aren’t being taught at home. If only I didn’t have such a crap childhood but then she did the best she could with what she had been taught, my nan is exactly the same as her, dead cold, she married a drunk man. Goes way back in my family. She didn’t leave him till her kids were young adults. My mum was lucky she met my dad, he was amazing, at least I had someone growing up so I was lucky in that sense. Her sister is with a controlling man, he treats her like a doormat.

@Watchkeys can I just ask. Those very vulnerabilities that made me prey did he exploit these as the reason why the relationship had problems. Eg you need to fix this and the relationship will be better, you need to be less sensitive so fix that and it will better, fix your anxiety and it will be better. He got me focused on myself rather then what he was doing, I still do this now? I really deeply thought that I made the relationship fail and need to be someone different, but i literally can’t be someone different. Did he actually even care if I had issues or glad I had them as they made me weak always thinking they were the fault. You can spend forever fixing things. He always used to say he loved me and stayed with me despite my issues. I’m starting to think did I even have any real issues. All I wanted was to feel safe, physically and mentally and emotionally. I never did in any of those areas.

In my current relationship I feel safe in them all. Apart from I feel a bit embarrassed when I mention things that must sound ridiculous to someone who hasn’t experienced what I have. I tend to overshare with the wrong people then feel rejection. I’m still very sensitive to rejection but I can now stop and rationalise when I have the feeling and catch those bad thoughts.

Not sure what your question was there, @Justwondering3 , can you re-phrase it?

I’m still very sensitive to rejection but I can now stop and rationalise when I have the feeling and catch those bad thoughts

Also, is this you judging your feelings, when you think you're being too sensitive, as 'bad thoughts'? If so, you're still vulnerable.

To be honest I have no idea my question lol. Doesn’t matter really anyway as god knows what he was up to. Only he knows that. All I really understand is that I was a tool to fit some purpose he had, whatever that was and so is everyone in his life.

I think I meant about realising that people are not rejecting me and I try and stop the negative feelings I have about myself. Sometimes I can probably be a bit to needy, other times they the wrong people for the wrong questions, other times they just don’t see the world the same as they had different experiences. It’s not about me. I tend to think people judge me (which I’m sure they do sometimes) but they haven’t walked in my shoes.

My partners mum is quite matter of fact, none of that emotional crap from her. She basically tells me to get on with it. At the beginning I thought she was rejecting me and I withdrew from wanting to spend time with her. Now I come to to see thats just who she is, her mum died when she was 3. Still feels crap when people don’t see how hard I’ve tried with so little reward and no support or praise or hugs from anyone when I was in the dark.

It’s shit not having that proud mum daughter relationship and never having that voice in your head. I try and be my own voice but I’ve made a huge number of mistakes it’s a lot to forgive. I understand though why I am why I am. I am my own worst critic.

I don’t blame my thoughts at all. But it gets a bit annoying at times when my mind thinks something and I have to go in there and sort it out and rationalise. My inner child is a bit “needy” at times bless her but I no longer blame her she’s had enough of that.

Sometimes I can probably be a bit to needy

What rules do you think you're meant to be following regarding how needy you should be? Whose authority do you respect, with regard to what the 'correct' level of neediness is?

People tend to side step away from me at times. People don’t want needy people around.

OK. The reality is, you don't want people around who think you're too needy, and that's what I've been getting at. This is your life. Your job is to be you. That's it. Anybody who doesn't like it doesn't have to hang around you, and anybody who tries to tell you by words or actions that you're not doing it right, it's your responsibility to stay away from them, to protect yourself.

Don't change yourself to fit what other people want; change your people to fit what you want. If you change to fit what other people want, you risk abuse, because that's the vulnerability that lets other people tell you who you should be.

The only authority on the subject of you, is YOU. Nobody gets to tell you that you are 'too anything'.

Yeah I get that but I’ve got to function in the world also. I’m not a child anymore and some of my actions are childish. Not everyone in my life I can help to be around. I am learning that I don’t have to tell everyone everything like I tend to. I make myself vulnerable.

There are lots of similarities between the abuser and the victim. I felt for a long time like the abuser. The only difference is I abuse myself.

I don't always agree with watchkeys but she's spot on here.

You are great just as you are. The right people will like and accept you for you. Flaws, neediness whatever.

When you're around people who accept themselves and accept you, you won't feel like you need to improve.

Don't get sucked into changing who you are. Embrace yourself.

Usually, the reason that we behave childishly is because we silence, and have always silenced, the child inside us. She never gets to speak, and so she never gets to grow up. She stays, for many of us, about 4 years old, and upset. When she gets wound up, we can't keep her quiet, so she shows outwardly, in our behaviours.

If we acknowledge our feelings, we behave differently. So, for example, if you feel you have to be around someone who winds you up, you might try to ignore your feelings, and then end up exploding in a childish way. Does that sort of thing ever happen?

Yeah my work colleagues. A few of them wind me up. One told me to stop moaning and be grateful as there are worse people out there. She said she’d love to be me with a nice partner and house. I wanted to punch her in the face but instead I felt guilty for moaning and convinced myself to stop moaning. But then I end up feeling a stranger and can’t look them in the eye.

Everyone likes her. She puts on a happy face and makes people happy, but she is sad I can tell.